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3rd one in a row to show Labour with a 5 pt lead
Starmer having a good day
Johnson, not so much
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1325167976073490432?s=19
The saviour of progressive politics legitimising the incorrect idea promulgated by the far right that we look after asylum seekers 'better than our own' and they should stay in France, yay.
Q: We see people being put in hotels, while we have our own homeless?
Starmer says he has visited the camps in France. He says claims should be processed there.
Where's that from, please grum ?
^ LBC phone-in today.
Hmmm... slippery way of not answering the question at all. I appreciate he's trying to keep the interview on one topic, the government's response to the pandemic, but he needs to be ready with real answers to this kind of question... it's going to be the focus of attention for much of the media next year... as the distraction to Brexit issues.
Agree, Kelvin. Pointing out the tory's (and especially Boris's) failings at every opportunity is a must, but also we now need to start seeing at least some more clues as to what SKS and labour will offer, in contrast to what's not on offer at present.
Otherwise Labour is in danger of trying to be all things to all men, and we know how that's worked out for various factions and promises over the last few years.
Yep, they need a few core policies, and start explaining why and how they will improve peoples lives and why they are important. Don't leave it to the last minute to try and persuade people with meaningless soundbites. Otherwise we will just end up in another personality contest.
Good old Ian Lavery… calling for Starmer to apologise over Brexit… just in time to clear the air before all the milk and honey of 2021.
Unless Boris does a 180 and completely aces the next three years, I can't see him being elected again. Once this global pandemic is over, it will inevitably expose the failings of the management of this crisis. There are only so many 2 or 3 word punch lines one can come up with before the public gets sick of it.
There are only so many 2 or 3 word punch lines one can come up with before the public gets sick of it.
10 years of screwing the public over via austerity and being exposed for lying on the key issues of Brexit didn't stop Boris getting a thumping majority at the last election.
Starmer/Labour has to show a definite alternative programme. I'll vote "anything but Tory" but Labour isn't the only alternative and are not guaranteed my vote. He needs to be able to unite a very diverse group of voters behind a deliverable vision of what Labours post Brexit/Covid Britain will look like.
Johnson will be gone in a few months. He has neither the ability or will to lead in difficult times and his purpose is complete for the party.
Further evidence of KS' astute political maneouvering today - jumping to suspend Corbyn to the delight of the columnist set, only to enrage both wings of the party when he's reinstated.
Centrism: pissing off everyone by giving no-one what they want. I'm sure the party unity Keith promised is just around the corner!
Come on, this was his no.1 desert island disc.
Respect.
Starmer didn't take either the decision to suspend Corbyn or the one to re-instate him.
Details Frank… details.
Anyone know who this Keith is? Or is it Sam’s new repeating “joke”?
EDIT: Actually, no, I'm not doing this. Apologies.
Is Keith’s identity a secret?
Details Kelvin?
The general secretary took the suspension decision - endorsed by Starmer; NEC panel was responsible for the re-instatement.
For a little bedtime reading, here's the 2020 version of the party rulebook...
Sorry, I should have a put a smiley in… you were attempting to inject facts into the thread, and my quip was meant as support for you doing so Frank. Carry on. I wasn’t criticising or disagreeing with what you said.
Anyway, after some searching I found out that both Sqwawkbox and Conservative Home have a running “Keith Starmer” joke, so now I get what Sam was up to. More likely to have adopted it from the former than the later, I presume.
Were I a multi-millionaire beneficiary of and supporter of apartheid, or owned a supermarket or car hire chain, or a property developer and landlord, I'd back Sir and he'd back me. If I rented or was in mortgage debt, underpaid, furloughed, poor t and c's, maybe not so much. He said he wants to be less reliant on union funds and therefore more reliant on the mega-rich sponsors, they will be chuffed. You takes your choices and get what your given.
Sorry for the mixup kelvin, frank - I'm pretty sure frank was replying to my post above.
The deleted post was a bit sneery, and that's not helpful. Yes, "Keith" is a stupid name for Keir Starmer; after 4 years of allotments and "magic grandad" I engaged in a bit of the same tit-for-tat. That was a mistake - it doesn't help the discussion and doesn't help with party unity. So apologies for that.
On frank's fact-checking, he is quite correct - Starmer neither directly suspended Corbyn or was on the reviw panel. However it's quite clear that this is a politicial decision, and there's no point pretending that Starmer has no influence on what happens here. I would have thought at the least he would have had words with the general secretary to make sure that IF he took action, he needed to be sure of it. Instead, what's happened over the last month has just turned the spotlight away from the ongoing Tory shitshow and increased the infighting in the party.
Anyway - I'm going to stop here. I just want an end to the infighting and for Keir to be able to make some progress on his leadership pledges, and start challenging the government more. We're going to need it in the coming months!
I just want an end to the infighting and for Keir to be able to make some progress on his leadership pledges, and start challenging the government more.
Wake up and smell the coffee. He's declared war on the left and a huge proportion of his members. He doesn't want unity, he wants a fight to the death, with him as the last man standing. Judging by his pathetic display at PMQs today against a car crash of a PM it seems he's more at home fighting with his own members and supporters than fighting the tories. He's finished, and will never be PM.
Wake up and smell the coffee. He’s declared war on the left and a huge proportion of his members. He doesn’t want unity, he wants a fight to the death, with him as the last man standing. Judging by his pathetic display at PMQs today against a car crash of a PM it seems he’s more at home fighting with his own members and supporters than fighting the tories. He’s finished, and will never be PM.
Feel better now?
He has declared war on a bunch of incompetents in his party that failed to get elected twice against the worst government we have ever had (until now). I know of a few people who were at a loss on who to vote for in the last election for various reasons despite having voted Labour for years.
One of which was a teacher in a private school, his take on it (I have not fact checked this) was that he would be signing away his own job with Corbyn's policy on Private schools.
Why would repeating Corbyn's ideology for a 3rd time have any different results?
Feel better now?
Absolutely. It's always good to have questions and uncomfortable suspicions answered and confirmed. Starmer's done just that today.
Why would repeating Corbyn’s ideology for a 3rd time have any different results?
And who is suggesting doing that?
I'm a 'natural labour supporter' - I won't be voting for Starmer. Allowing a decent if misguided man to be characterised as an anti-Semite and kicked out of the party after being a lifelong campaigner for social justice and anti-racism is just shabby, to say the least.
One of which was a teacher in a private school, his take on it (I have not fact checked this) was that he would be signing away his own job with Corbyn’s policy on Private schools.
Voting purely on self interest, sounds like a natural fit for the Tory party.
He doesn’t want unity, he wants a fight to the death, with him as the last man standing. J
Sounds like he's not the only one, speaking as a non-Tory voter desperately looking for someone worth voting for to get them out.
Sounds like he’s not the only one
I joined the party and voted for Starmer largely on the basis of his promise to act as a unifier. His actions this morning have proven that he's doing the very opposite of that. If you want the tories out, you need a united labour party. It's politics 101, yet Starmer seems more interested in fighting internal battles. Leadership starts with listening to all sides and having the backs of those you lead. Starmer does neither, and instead only serves the interests of a small but powerful minority in the party who want to use it to further their own interests. He's done.
Allowing a decent if misguided man to be characterised as an anti-Semite
some of Corbyn’s “confusion” about anti Semitism have included: supporting Mear One’s deeply AS mural, standing on a platform in support of Sheikh Raed Salah a man who believes the blood libel to be the literal truth, and writing a forward to Hobson's book; Imperialism, which is riddled with Hobson's AS beliefs...
there’s more... either Corbyn is serially unlucky with his choice of political allies, totally blind or ignorant of history, or really isn’t as blameless as lots of folk seem to think he is. I’m content for Starmer to get shot of him quite frankly, I don’t think the Labour Party will suffer for the loss. He’s an anachronistic embarrassment
Starmer does neither, and instead only serves the interests of a small but powerful minority in the party who want to use it to further their own interests.
replace Starmer in that sentence with “Corbyn” and it’s still accurate. These are politicians, it’s what they do.
I would say that like many people on the left his support of the Palestinian cause has led to a bit of a blind spot regarding anti-semitism that is sometimes tied up with that.
But picking out a few examples of missteps in amongst a lifetime of campaigning against racism and anti-semitism is a very Daily Mail kind of approach.
I never voted for Labour 'till Corbyn became leader and changed many of its policies for the better, and won me over. But I'll be continuing to vote for Labour under Starmer still... and I haven't bought into the idea that Corbyn is the victim here, and that "enemies in the party" are pushing him out... his response has made it hard for Starmer to restore the whip... I still think that on balance he should do exactly that, restore the whip that is, but that has become such a difficult act to carry out because of the way Corbyn responded to the EHRC report, not because of anything the new leadership team have done. The response to either action (restore/withhold the whip) is going to be long and messy for Labour now... and Starmer can't avoid that... only Corbyn had the power to avoid this, by choosing how he responded when the report was published, but he decided not to, or was unable to. There are no good options after that for the Labour party... only bad and worse ones.
He’s declared war on the left and a huge proportion of his members
He really hasn't. Corbyn only has himself to blame for the situation he's in. Who else is presently 'under siege' from Starmer and his stormtroopers then?
Its exactly this kind of paranoid, tinfoil-helmetted nonsense we've come to expect from the left, who feel constantly compelled to act to develop a bunker mentality to fuel their never-ending persecution complexes.
Grum there’s folk in the Schul my partner attends who think he’s been “hiding in plain sight” his whole career, and were genuinely scared of the prospect of a Corbyn premier-ship. That we could get to that position : liberally minded Jews who’ve been members of the Labour Party in fear of it....astonishing.
Personally I think it’s probably more nuanced than that, and tend to think these aren’t deliberate choices, but crucially he keeps making the same mistakes and is seemingly blind to the grief and upset it causes among natural supporters like reform Jews, he should retire as gracefully as he can IMO
These are politicians, it’s what they do.
The greater problem for Starmer is that this is no longer primarily about Corbyn IMO. It's about the ability of party members to hold deeply felt political opinions about Israel and the Palestinian situation without being called a racist. Until recently having a political stance against the actions of Israel in Palestine wasn't at all controversial. Now however even just the mention of the subject raises the suspicion of anti-semitism. Starmer isn't trying to resolve that, he's fuelling it and siding with people who do not want the labour party to succeed. By doing so he's putting himself against huge numbers of people in the party who are becoming more and more angry at being smeared with the worst of accusations. This isn't going to go away, it's going to get worse.
Until recently having a political stance against the actions of Israel in Palestine wasn’t at all controversial. Now however even just the mention of the subject raises the suspicion of anti-semitism.
What a load of bullshit Dazh. Sorry. None of this is about restricting criticism of the Israeli government's actions in Palestine.
This isn’t going to go away, it’s going to get worse.
Very true. What action could Starmer take now that would make it "go away"?
What a load of bullshit
It really isn't. I know loads of educated, liberal and passionate anti-racists - which I count myself as one - who are now scared to talk about Israel-Palestine for fear of being called an anti-semite. They look to the leadership to diffuse this ridiculous situation and try to bring back a modicum of respect, but they see the opposite, and the longer it goes on the more depressed and angry they become. Deny it if you like, but I can guarantee you it exists.
What action could Starmer take now that would make it “go away”?
It's too late now, he's planted his flag on the battlefield. There's no going back.
Now however even just the mention of the subject raises the suspicion of anti-semitism.
oh, best not then, as my partners schul just raised money on behalf of an Israeli charity that provides medical and dental treatment for Palestinians
really, dazh, tone it down a bit, yeah?
It’s too late now, he’s planted his flag on the battlefield. There’s no going back.
While you're toning it down a bit, do you think we also can we do away with the hysterical militaristic references as well. You're starting to sound like a leftie Boris Johnson 😉
Is 'tone it down' a bit like 'I'm telling you to stfu'? Asking for a friend.
No, Dazh really is a lovely fella with passionate beliefs I don’t think any of us who know him IRL (me Binners and Kelvin at least on this thread) have ever had a argument with him, it would be like smacking a puppy.
Binners asking people not to be hysterical 🤣
While you’re toning it down a bit
Pots and kettles? Anyway yes, I'll shut up, as I'm generally not comfortable talking about it, for all the reasons I've stated. I know for a fact I'm not a racist, and hopefully those that know me know that too.
I don't think anyone would conceivably accuse you of racism mate. You're the leftiest person I know.
You make Jeremy Corbyn look like Fatcha 😀
What a load of bullshit Dazh. Sorry. None of this is about restricting criticism of the Israeli government’s actions in Palestine.
It really is. Not directly by Starmer but indirectly because any criticism of Isreal gets you called anti semite.
Rightly or wrongly, anti-semitism has become a real issue for Labour, JC's approach clearly didn't work while he was leader (regardless if he was correct or not), sometimes you have to accept politics is a dirty business, hold your nose and make the best decisions which doesn't always hold with what you believe.
JC's recent comments show he still has no grasp on the damage he's causing, say the right thing, retire into the back benches and the whole affair would soon be yesterdays news
The greater problem for Starmer is that this is no longer primarily about Corbyn IMO. It’s about the ability of party members to hold deeply felt political opinions about Israel and the Palestinian situation without being called a racist.
All the more reason to put the whole anti-semitism issue to bed.
I know for a fact I’m not a racist
I'm pretty damn sure you aren't either. Not sure how that's relevant to what Starmer does now as regards Corbyn to get Labour out of this hole. I've said that I think he should reinstate the whip... but acknowledge that would end nothing... the best opportunity to start to close this down properly was when the report was published... and at that time ALL the front bench said what needed saying, and committed to what needed doing... I thought Rayner and Starmer both led well there... but Corbyn decided to keep this going, rather than do the same. He messed up that opportunity for Labour, and now there are no good options... only bad and worse ones... for Labour.
It really isn’t. I know loads of educated, liberal and passionate anti-racists – which I count myself as one – who are now scared to talk about Israel-Palestine for fear of being called an anti-semite.
The days of discussing sensitive topics without being called names is long gone. The Labour party should acknowledge it, since its members and supporters have a lot to do with it. Hence the irony of JC complaining about anti-Semitism being exaggerated, even if to some it is done rightly so.
While you’re toning it down a bit, do you think we also can we do away with the hysterical militaristic references as well. You’re starting to sound like a leftie Boris Johnson 😉
Brilliant as always Binners. You absolute ledge!!!
These lefties don't like it up 'em.
They hate that Sir Kee Kee is a politics genius who plays on a 4D chessboard.
Just like Sir Winston, he's a fearless fighter waging war against a Nazi threat.
By slagging Special K the lefty sixth form types have outed themselves as Jew haters.
Case closed. Get rid!!
No, we won't have that in our party.
We are decent people who just want to get our country back.
To stop the immigrants, to get behind our military boys and support HRH.
Corbyn was far too grumpy and stubborn to shut up/toe the line last week, and knew he would open a can of worms with what he said. What an utter fool.
I think SKS has done the right thing in the circumstances, and has shown some leadership. Fair play.
Corbyn needs to realise that if Labour is to become electable, he needs to STFU!
say the right thing, retire into the back benches and the whole affair would soon be yesterdays news
Lots of wishful thinking here I think! Remember that you're talking about "journalists" who picked out photos of Corbyn walking to the cenotaph and arranged them to look like he was dancing; made a song and dance about a coat being "too scruffy"; photoshopped a red Russian background and hat into a background photo of a piece about him; etc.
There's no way they'd just accept an apology and move on. The next step would be binners-esque cries of "it's not a real apology", demands that he resign immediately for his failure, demonising Starmer for not doing more, etc. The constant hounding won't be stopped by simply apologising - the right-wind press won't allow it.
EDIT: to illustrate my point:
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1329089028956639233
Relying on Dr Aaron Bastani for any point might not be helping your case.
Have you tried reading the tweet by Jenrick that he quoted? I don't think Bastani is doing much heavy lifting in this one.
It doesn't matter who points it out, I have no idea who Bastani but an ad hom isn't usually considered a good argument.
The fact is that the witch-hunt will never stop, and the Labour Party can never do enough self-flagellation.
We are now getting lectures about racism from a man who's PM calls black people grinning picanninies with watermelon smiles (and gay people bum-boys), and has never apologised for it. From a party where the Muslim Council of Britain has called for an investigation into Islamophobia (not been done for some reason), where Baroness Warsi had to leave because of racism saying 'It feels like I'm in an abusive relationship'.
Have you tried reading the tweet by Jenrick that he quoted?
Probably awful like the man (Jenrick)
Conservatives need to clean their house as well, the sooner they do it the better
because any criticism of Isreal gets you called anti semite.
conversely; does support for Israel get you called a part of the Israeli lobby? or World-wide Jewish influence?
You do know that the Israeli lobby is a real thing don't you? It's not the same as a worldwide jewish conspiracy although some people would love to conflate the two.
.
Who?
Can you just remind us again how many labour MPs voted against Jeremy Corbyn in a vote of no confidence?
Shall I refresh your memory?
172
Everything’s relative
Meanwhile, even before all this blew up - more people thought Boris Johnson would make a better PM and the Conservatives are ahead of Labour too.
This against possibly the most inept government we've ever seen blundering from u-turn to u-turn to corruption scandal.
https://www.survation.com/uk-political-polling-conservatives-below-40-points/
Who?
Can you just remind us again how many labour MPs voted against Jeremy Corbyn in a vote of no confidence?
Shall I refresh your memory?
172
Everything’s relative
& that was a massive cock up on their part wasn't it? Bunch of first class bell ends the lot of them.
Labour had managed to get ahead in the polls. I fully expect this mess to mean they will lose ground again. Just when the Conservatives needed help, Labour oblige. Anyone who thinks Starmer is the central person dragging Labour into the mud now, aren’t going to change their minds now. For them it just couldn’t be Corbyn, so it must be his successor. Members will leave. Support for Labour will drop. Johnson gets his get out of jail card when he needs it most. And it was all avoidable. But it needed a coordinated and clear response across the party to the EHRC report… most managed that.
You think Starmer has handled this situation well?
No. But there is no good way to handle it now it has got to here. The mess was made on the day the EHRC report was published. There are no good options for Labour now.
Once again Magic Grandads constant, pathetically narcissistic need for adulation and to be the centre of attention gift-wraps another present for Boris and his chums, just when they really needed it
With labour ahead in the polls, Boris needed Jezza to deliver. And, as always, he duly obliged.
In spades
He’s a Tory plant
It’s the only rational explanation
As for those who bought into his shtick? Well...
I could just as well argue that JC could have quietly rejoined labour and become an irrelevance again without people like Margaret Hodge chiming in and threatening to leave unless he's hung, drawn and quartered.
FWIW I think what JC originally said was politically very stupid - it was also true. But that doesn't seem to matter any more.
Once again
Magic Grandadsbinners' constant, pathetically narcissistic need for adulation and to be the centre of attention...
FWIW I think what JC originally said was politically very stupid – it was also true.
It was the wrong response. At the wrong time. And it has mired the Labour Party in all this ongoing ____.
I could just as well argue that JC could have quietly rejoined labour and become an irrelevance again
He’s made a very lucrative, if utterly useless career at being irrelevant
His only significant contributions have been gifts to the Tory party
He lost two elections and is now doing his upmost to see labour lose the next one. Aided by Len and the rest of his handsomely remunerated ‘socialist’ fellow class warriors
We really should all bow down to these Millionaire Marxists and thank them for their contribution to ‘the struggle’. They’re playing a blinder
Margaret Hodge chiming in and threatening to leave unless he’s hung, drawn and quartered.
As I’ve said before, they want blood, and damn the consequences. The PLP want their party back. F the members, F the activists, f the trade unionists, f the voters. This is going to be a war between the PLP and the membership like no other, and the only winners will be the tories.
This isn’t the 80s with a fringe minority of nutters, the membership are far stronger now, and Starmer is going to find out the price of going back on his primary promise.
I really do think you overestimate how much of the membership are rabid Corbyn supporters.
They are a very loud group but I'd confidently predict the number of voters lost because after two failed elections a new brush was required will be significantly out numbered by voters coming back because they couldn't vote for J-Wow.
I absolutely agree with Kelvin's points up there. Which are the same as binners points but less inflammatory 🤣
I really do think you overestimate how much of the membership are rabid Corbyn supporters
I agree with this. A vocal minority. Frankly, if they remain in the party, they will divide it come the next election and gift the Tories a win. If Starmer kicks them out now he may have time to rebuild centre Labour support and possibly win the next election.
It's a very fine political judgement call.
I really do think you overestimate how much of the membership are rabid Corbyn supporters
If they were as numerous as you suggest then Rebecca Wrong-Daily, Jezza's representative on earth, would be the present leader of the labour party
As a reminder for you, here's the results of the leadership election:
Keir Starmer - 56.2%
Rebecca Long-Bailey - 27.6%
Lisa Nandy - 16.2%
I don't think there are many 'rabid Corbyn supporters', I'm certainly not. But what there is is a lot of people towards the left of the party (especially activists who actually do stuff IRL) who will feel that this is a shabby, divisive thing to do - and feel very disillusioned that the labour party has allowed a mostly proud record of anti racism to be thrown in the bin.
What's wrong with saying 'we are proud of our anti racism but we also need to do better' instead of this self flagellation about how awful Labour is?
Re those leadership stats - RLB got over a quarter of the vote, and I think a lot of left leaning people will have voted for Starmer hoping he would be the unifier he claimed to be, but isn't.
and I think a lot of left leaning people will have voted for Starmer
There are huge numbers of these, myself included. They did so on the basis of Starmer's promises to unify the party and maintain the policy agenda. He's already ditched the first (and is actively working against it, rather than simply ignoring it), and the second is in serious question. If the left had better candidates than RLB and Burgon they would have walked to victory against Starmer. At even a conservative estimate, I reckon at least 50% of the membership are now against Starmer, and many of these are the activists relied upon to get the vote out in elections. If he thinks he can win an election with half his party feeling like they've been betrayed then he's an idiot.
They did so on the basis of Starmer’s promises to unify the party and maintain the policy agenda.
You can't make people unify. Starmer couldn't control how Corbyn responded to the EHRC report. Corbyn has left Starmer with two options, BOTH of which would divide the party, and make it less electable. I think Starmer chose the wrong one, but EITHER response, withhold the whip or not, would damage the party. Thank you Mr Corbyn.
Like the last couple of elections it's starting to look like I'll have no one to vote for. Although basically a Conservative voter I never voted for May and certainly not Johnson.I wouldn't vote for Corbyn either and not a hard left Labour party.
I dread the thought of another Conservative win unless they can radically change. I've considered voting Labour under Starmer but if they're going tits up again that option will close...so a visit to the polling station and spoil my paper or vote for an absolute no-hoper.
Starmer couldn’t control how Corbyn responded to the EHRC report. Corbyn has left Starmer with two options, BOTH of which would divide the party, and make it less electable.
Corbyn new full-well that his sorry/not sorry 'clarification' the other day was effectively a hospital pass for Starmer and the Labour party. He knew the damage it would do to the party and its electoral prospects, he knew it would be a gift to the Tories and their mates in the right wing press, but he went ahead and did it anyway.
That pretty much sums him up as a man.
Like a petulant toddler
Like a petulant toddler
Hmmm.
Although basically a Conservative voter
So a conservative voter who wants to vote labour if only they had conservative policies and politicians. Why not just vote conservative instead of feeling guilty about it?
If anyone wants to see how the Tories are lapping this up, just look at Michael Gove's Twitter. Corbyn seems determined to undermine his own party and keep the Tories in power for the next decade. Well done. Thanks mate. Great job. I've got Scotland's only Labour MP and it would be quite nice if he wasn't alone, but unless Corbyn shuts up and disappears he'll do well to hang on.