As for what has Starmer done? Well, judging by the upset in this thread, repositioned Labour’s image to be more inviting to voters who don’t consider themselves left wing,
Agree and like you while that is not really what I want I would still rather have a Starmer Labour government than any Tory government. And that is probably the best we can hope for in a countries that seems to love the tory party.
(but getting utterly trounced at the last by-election they actually contested).
Indeed the last couple have had catastrophic drops in support but remember its polls that count now and not election results. I know its confusing keeping up with what binners thinks is important but just think of it as junior johnson choosing whatever is suitable at this moment in time.
As for what has Starmer done? Well, judging by the upset in this thread, repositioned Labour’s image to be more inviting to voters who don’t consider themselves left wing
That's democracy for you.
That’s democracy for you.
Not really. Its a symptom of a badly flawed fptp approach which fails to represent many voters.
It also relies on the notion that those traditional labour voters will remain voting for a party which doesnt really represent them any longer but is slightly better than the alternative.
Whilst I can see why it would appeal to the minority who suddenly get treated as a majority even for those I would have thought they should be capable of looking at the growth of populism and the voting for brexit with comments about "needing change", "all the same" with a certain amount of concern.
Opinion polls show that lead drops significantly with Rishi Sunak replacing Johnson btw. Which is astonishing when you look at this government's record of corruption and chaos.
Would be squeaky bum time going in to an election against Sunak when no doubt most of the media would rally round.
Its a symptom of a badly flawed fptp approach which fails to represent many voters.
Agreed. But we have FPTP. And we're getting more FPTP as well, as this government are enforcing it on local elections. The longer the stay in, the more "flawed" our democracy will become. Get. Them. Out.
Kier Starmer, like Jeremy Corbyn before him, has done a sterling job in providing the one thing that Labour supporters appear to want above all else: Lots of opportunities to fight bitterly amongst themselves.
Get. Them. Out.
And replace them with what and how? What is being offered as the replacement?
After all if the replacement just carries on a slightly watered down version of the same politics then that approach gets normalised and next time round it can be pushed even further.
We have been here before so what is being offered that is different this time?
replace them with what and how? What is being offered as the replacement?
You prefer these Tories to a less than perfect in your view Labour government? Or think there's no difference, they're all the same? Really? Really really? Deep deep down really really? Really?
You prefer these Tories to a less than perfect in your view Labour government?
You've heard what this lot have got to say about the last labour government, right?
Apparently it was the very worst thing that has ever happened EVER!
Really? Really really? Deep deep down really really? Really?
Yes, really
Idealogical purity at all costs. Even if that means permanent opposition and permanent Tory government.
I'd obviously prefer a Starmer government to the current one but how much do they need to compromise to be allowed to have a shot at power? What do they have to do to get the press barons on side, for example?
If they were absolutely hammering the Tories in the polls (the fabled 20 point lead) they might have a chance at a decent majority and a strong mandate - does anyone really feel confident that's going to happen?
Reality is if Starmer wins we will all get to feel a bit better about stuff for a while but the system rolls along just the same. Meanwhile if Labour achieve then sustain success then all the grifters and dodgy russian money will find their way over to their side.
Really? Really really? Deep deep down really really? Really?
sigh. That isnt what I said.
Have you not paid attention to the past not just in the UK but particularly in the US as well. Are you not familiar with the overton window and how to shift expectations?
Have you not noticed when the tactic is to be slightly less than something else that something else shifts further and further and so does the slightly less position?
Have you not looked at the frequent complaints about them all being the same as each other and hence how people pretending to offer a change do well?
So what exactly is Starmer offering? How will he prevent it being a repeat of the triangulation/third way approach which shifted everything hard right?
Why should a traditional labour voter vote for someone targeting the centre? Why not look for someone who actually represents their views.
Indeed why should a centre voter vote labour vs the traditional lib dems?
Are you new here?
Lomg time lurker on this thread as it continuously entertains. Felt I had to chip in when people are trying to find the lowest opinion poll for the opposition party that they support. Utterly nuts.
Objectively, SKS's response to BJ on Monday was an immense performance. If people choose to ignore that, and the shift in attitudes it will have created, then good luck to them.
In the meantime, I'll split my time between parody and this thread 😉
Objectively, SKS’s response to BJ on Monday was an immense performance.
I have to agree. It shifted my assessment of him by quite a few notches.
I think its telling that it's now clearly official party policy to try and smear Starmer in the worst way imaginable.
I'll just repeat what I put no the Boris Johnson thread:
Lia Nici, the Tory MP for Grimsby is presently on the MP’s panel on Five Live
She has just made a statement that when Keir Starmer visited her constituency last week, before Boris’s statement in parliament, that her constituents didn’t mention parties at all, but did all mention the failure of Keir Starmer to prosecute Jimmy Saville.
Yeah, right. Totally believable.
When asked to repeat the actual accusation that Johnson made herself, she did the Nadine Dorries defence “well I don’t know all the facts…”.
So there you have it. It looks like this nonsense is now a clear party tactic, probably briefed directly from central office, being repeated by Tory MPs to smear Starmer.
Thats the level to which they’ve now sunk to. It’s not even gutter level. Its way, way below that. The depressing thing is that I suspect it’ll work with his thick-as-mince Brexity base, which is exactly why they’re doing it
I’ll split my time between parody and this thread
Wait, what, this isn't a parody thread?
Wait, what, this isn’t a parody thread?
Ah, maybe I misread the vibe... 😉
I think its telling that it’s now clearly official party policy to try and smear Starmer in the worst way imaginable.
Wow who thought the tories would go in for smearing the opposition leader?
They have never done that before have they.
I am shocked, shocked.
Still on the plus side whilst there are plenty of the left who arent impressed by Starmer there doesnt seem to be any right now busy amplifying the tories attack lines so thats an improvement.
busy amplifying the tories attack lines
Avoid Social Media. It's absolutely awash with people who claim to be "of the left" amplifying the Savile stuff. Including some that used to be Labour MPs. And I don't just mean Galloway (but of course, he is doing it as well).
Easy choice! Point me to one shadow cabinet member who isn’t head and shoulders above the current person supposedly handing the brief in government. Just one.
Easy, name the portfolio, no search engines allowed
Bridget Phillipson
Nick Thomas-Symonds
John Healey
Jonathan Reynolds
Steve Reed
Louise Haigh
All big portfolios, all seen their opposite number on the telly lots, all have been nearly invisible
Go on, list their opposite numbers then... tell me which one you think is doing a better job than their Labour shadow would do. Of the ones you list, I've seen Jonathan Reynolds on TV the most this week, and I agree he comes across as a bit of nobody. And I agree about Nick Thomas-Symonds... glad he was replaced as Shadow Home Secretary, I was calling for him to be pushed aside the whole time he was in that post. His replacement didn't go down well in this thread though... (huge improvement IMHO).
When asked to repeat the actual accusation that Johnson made herself, she did the Nadine Dorries defence “well I don’t know all the facts…”.
So there you have it. It looks like this nonsense is now a clear party tactic, probably briefed directly from central office, being repeated by Tory MPs to smear Starmer.
Thats the level to which they’ve now sunk to. It’s not even gutter level. Its way, way below that. The depressing thing is that I suspect it’ll work with his thick-as-mince Brexity base, which is exactly why they’re doing it
Conservative MPs have jumped the shark, well some have, I don't think it will help them. They are looking stupid. The media need to do their job now and make them look really stupid
Starmer needs to take the Savile stuff head on and use the just released CSE report to highlight the scale of a important issue that the government has failed to tackle. The leveling up joke funding, the lack of pandemic preparedness, the blatant treatment of the population as fools in Downing St. Take the piss about Boris needing to wait for a police report before he can confirm he was in his own home etc etc
Every time they
Didn't Johnson day he was going to get advice from Lynton Crosby again? This is a classic dead cat isn't it.
Weird cognitive dissonance for people who claim to be outraged by this who also hold Margaret Thatcher up as a hero.
If people choose to ignore that, and the shift in attitudes it will have created, then good luck to them.
So we are saying Starmer has 'won the argument'. Job done then.
This does indeed seem to have Lynton Crosby's grubby fingerprints all over it
Unfortunately, I suspect this is only the beginning and we're going to head downhill from here
PMQ's is going to be interesting. I fully expect Johnson to repeat that accusation and probably worse, under the cover of parliamentary privilege as he continues to drag the entire party even further into the gutter. Somewhere, it has to be said, they seem quite happy to go
Straight in on the Savile slur. Starmer not holding back.
Johnson sticking with it. One for the sane Tory MPs to ponder.
Where did this leader of the opposition come from! Going in hard on corruption as regards PPE. More of this please.
The reply... "captain hindsight" ... Johnson has nothing new. He's a spent force.
"Tax rises for working people"
"Tax cuts for oil companies and banks"
Linking Sunak and Johnson together with every question.
Aiming at both. Much needed.
As for what has Starmer done? Well, judging by the upset in this thread, repositioned Labour’s image ....
Is that what it's all about now - image? The full Americanisation of British politics?
The new electoral strategy.... balloons, campaign hats, rousing anthems, loads of flags, and meaningless slogans that everyone can eaily repeat, MGBGA.
Thankfully, despite the contemptuous attitude many on here hold, I believe the British public are a tad more sophisticated than to be so driven by image.
"Image"... as in the picture the voter has in their head when asked "would/could you vote Labour". It has nothing to do with the fripperies you've brought up.
Is that what it’s all about now – image?
It's always been about image!
Kier Starmer, like Jeremy Corbyn before him, has done a sterling job in providing the one thing that Labour supporters appear to want above all else: Lots of opportunities to fight bitterly amongst themselves.
Yep, it's what Labour is all about.
Both left and right factions - united in their devotion to yabbering on about themselves.
An English-centric party that's devoted to fighting an illusory enemy that shares their core British nationalism: military, monarchy and freemarkets.
Thankfully, despite the contemptuous attitude many on here hold, I believe the British public are a tad more sophisticated than to be so driven by image.
Absolutely, comrade!
They're not about to be suckered in by populist slogans and daft stunts...
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1415986065014468610?s=20&t=a3HaYGZu0C1SF1LQZ6oKYw
Let's hope Starmer stays well away from such japes. Or tablets of stone.
inkster
Free MemberDidn’t he just, but the fact that Kinnock got carried away and went all X- Factor when presented with an open goal does not change the fact that both had the job of de-toxifying the party in the eyes of the electorate.
This is a myth, though. The drop in the polls that foreshadowed the election loss occurred before the Sheffield rally. It only seemed to align neatly because of the lag in reporting and delivery (because polls took longer to collect, back then). And the whole "Kinnock blows it at the rally" meme didn't really get going til after the election when, as usual, Labour were looking for a simple explanation that they could get angry about rather than a real one that they could learn from.
“Image”… as in the picture the voter has in their head when asked “would/could you vote Labour”. It has nothing to do with the fripperies you’ve brought up.
Well that hasn't changed much has it? As binners very helpfully reminded us earlier of the situation in 2017 when Labour's share of the vote in the general election was 40%, five years later according to the latest poll Labour support now stands at 40%
Obviously it's better than 2019 when Labour were calling for a second referendum but I think it's fair to say that if Labour were still pursuing that disastrous policy today, which of course was championed by Keir Starmer, the situation would be quite different.
Btw binners you still haven't provided any examples of criticism of Labour leading in the polls, are you accepting that the only person who has ranted that leading in the polls isn't good enough if it isn't by 20 points is you?
Have a day off.
A year may be better
Have a day off.
A year may be better
Get over yourselves. Just because you don't like what Ernie says doesn't mean he shouldn't say it.
Happy to hear what Ernie has to say about Starmer... much of it is often spot on. Whatever he's chasing Binners about, in a "response" to my comment, reads to me as just impenetrable self-referential forum navel gazing. What's the point? Is there a point? Who knows. Perhaps I've just had too many coffees. Sorry Ernie... carry on....
reads to me as just impenetrable self-referential forum navel gazing. What’s the point? Is there a point?
Point? You think there should be a point to this thread? When it finally closes all the issues surrounding Keir Starmer's leadership will have been finally resolved?
No wonder you spend an inordinate amount of time on here Kelvin.... important business to sort out!
Whatever he’s chasing Binners about, in a “response” to my comment, reads to me as just impenetrable self-referential forum navel gazing.
Heaven forbid someone is asked to back up their claims with evidence. Binners should have the same rights as Johnson to just lie repeatedly and smear anyone who disagrees.
Ernie is just a little insecure and constantly seeks my validation when he's unsure on matters. Many people do. Most of them are actually on this thread
So I'm happy to pop into the thread from time to time with reassurance. Bless 'em.
It's a valuable public service. I'm a bit like the BBC in that respect, in fact, in may respects. I pay Adrian Chiles many hundreds of thousands of pounds a year for a start
I think its telling that it’s now clearly official party policy to try and smear Starmer in the worst way imaginable.
Smear - a Labour leader? How on earth did that happen.
Centrist frustration - needs more Polly Toynbee lubrication.
Ernie is just a little insecure and constantly seeks my validation when he’s unsure on matters.
Well yes, I'm never sure what your position is on anything binners, although to be fair I have no doubt that you aren't either.
At the start of the Corbyn thread according to you everything that was wrong with the Labour Party was the fault of Tony Blair and Corbyn was a breath of fresh air, by the end of the thread Corbyn he was a beardy Marxist**
At the start of this thread you were wetting yourself with excitement over Starmer then you went all silent apart from the occasional criticism, such as a couple of weeks ago when according to you he wasn't working-class like Angela Raynor. Now this week he you have almost elevated him to sainthood because Johnson screwed up so badly.
On the Corbyn thread anything less than a 20% lead for Labour in the opinions polls was an utter disgrace, on this thread a 5% Labour lead is fantastic news and everyone should be celebrating.
On this thread losing by-elections is okay because, you know, these things happen, and it's not all just about winning. On the Corbyn thread it's only about winning and nothing else.
You are more slippery than a Tory cabinet minister binners, expect to be asked to clarify the positions which you announce with so much passion.
** Why this obvious disdain for beards? Did you once have an unpleasant experience involving a beard? Would you like to to talk about it?
Smear – a Labour leader? How on earth did that happen.
Funny that everyone's up in arms when Johnson accuses Starmer of being a bit shit at his previous job, but no one batted an eyelid at his predecessor being called an anti-semite and a 'f***** racist' by members of his own party. The labour party might want to look closer to home when they're getting all outraged about baseless offensive smears.
