And that’s back to first past the post… there is a large minority of voters who will vote for a stridently left wing option (including me)… but many others need to be brought into the fold to defeat the Conservatives in England.
Unemployment is not the only measure of success.
Unemployment is probably the single greatest indicator of how well an economy is doing.
Which is precisely why the Tories made it their principal election issue in 1979 before then tripling unemployment to levels not seen since the Great Depression of the 1930s.
Unemployment has a huge effect on the quality of life of ordinary people, including those in work whose wages and conditions are massively effected by unemployment, never mind crime, substance abuse, etc etc.
Btw I feel as if I'm talking to a Tory voter, such is your dismissive attitude to the importance of unemployment levels.
Indeed. Seems pretty obvious to me that a party which gets 28% of the vote should get 28% of the power. Is that such a crazy idea?
your dismissive attitude to the importance of unemployment levels
It’s Tory voters that often believe that work is always the answer, that the government owes you nothing, and that the unemployed should be punished. You can count me out of that.
All the Scandinavian countries for starters
fwiw I'd be happy if we were more like some of the scandi's as would KS, so what exactly are we arguing about?
(Not sure I can be arsed arguing about the 70s. For sure Thatch made everything worse, things going downhill from a since misrepresented post-war consensus. Ducking out again either way.)
Btw I feel as if I’m talking to a Tory voter, such is your dismissive attitude to the importance of unemployment levels.
What's your view on 'bullshit jobs'? The only reason employment is at currently high levels is because we've created an economy which forces people to work in jobs which are completely pointless. There's a mental health tsunami out there due in no small part to the fact that people feel like they have no purpose in life beyond slaving away in a pointless job so they can buy pointless crap and then distract themselves by getting shitfaced at the weekend. What's the leftwing socialist solution to that?
What’s the leftwing socialist solution to that?
Spoken like a true leftie.
Edit : Btw that was very much Thatcher's argument, ie that the jobs being lost under her premiership weren't "real jobs". The Thatcherite slogan was "real jobs for real people".
Spoken like a true leftie.
Care to actually answer the question? I know how you like to discuss things properly rather than resort to personal jibes.
The Thatcherite slogan was “real jobs for real people”.
That isn't what we have now though is it? You're sounding very much like one of those blue labour 'dignity of work' types. It'll all be ok as long as we're all kept busy slaving away for benefit of either private business or the state. Whether you come at it from right or left it's still bollocks.
Unemployment is not the only measure of success. How people have to live in and out of work is just as important as whether they are in work. (To me anyway… insert vocal support of UBI rant here if you want).
UBI alone would not make a blind bit of difference to the macro-economic model we have now.
How does UBI fix lack of government spending in infrastructure and the health service for instance?
How does UBI not just become another benefit that can be used to shore up wages and leave companies paying less than decent wages?
How does UBI improve those that need more targeted benefits?
A job guarantee is a much more solid theoretical answer to the problems the private market has created.
A job guarantee with some form of UBI would perhaps be even better but without the government acting as the employer of last resort our country will carry on regressing under its own weight.
Well if thats the case, how come the majority keep overwhelmingly voting for what is clearly the worst of the two options available?
Surely you can answer your own question and draw parallels to the Brexit vote!
Short: Because we have been told that Capitalism in the form of neolibralism (or the free market) is great and socialism is evil.
It's a complete reversal of what is good for us as a population needing the get through the world as it is now.
On top of this we're in complex times where government's establish macroeconomic policy as current truth and shape society in populist ways.
Look at Sunak with his pathetic 'generous' support to the hospitality sector.
That's adding insult to injury when he knows the BoE is just a score keeper for government spending.
Anyway... Happy Non Denominational Winterfest you lot!
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51769100491_ad8cd999ab_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51769100491_ad8cd999ab_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2mSEaY8 ]Happy no denominational winterfest[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/14162682@N00/ ]bin lid[/url], on Flickr
I'm self-isolating and bored 😀
How does UBI improve those that need more targeted benefits?
UBI doesn’t mean that targeted benefits are no longer required. Just as a (real) state pension doesn’t mean that those with specific needs no longer require specific extra support.
A job guarantee is a much more solid theoretical answer to the problems the private market has created.
Guarantee of what kind of job? Smacks of communism a bit to me. Or feudalism. Be glad of a job, any job, because the alternative is destitution… we should and can aim higher than that. It also ignores the reality of in work poverty in our society currently.
that's some quality photoshopping there Binners, can't even see the joins.
Sigh, to repeat again… (normally I have to say this to kerley)
In 2019 28% of the electorate voted for the tories. In what fantasy world can that be described as an overwhelming majority?
Sigh, to repeat again (normally I have to say this to Dazh)
In the voting system is use in the UK, with the voters that bother to vote, more vote for Tory MPs in their constituency than others. I have never said the majority of people vote Tory but as we know that is not how voting works and the majority of people within each constituency is all that matters.
Short: Because we have been told that Capitalism in the form of neolibralism (or the free market) is great and socialism is evil.
So if we have all been told that why do we, on this thread, not believe that?
Is it because the voters are gullible or is it because they actually like the tory party and what it stands for?
I’m self-isolating and bored 😀
But at least not wasting your time 😁 I think though I've spotted what must be photoshop: what's with Trump's tribars? Anyway, that's fantastic and unlikely to be topped, so it's a Christmas flounce from me. Have a good one, one and all!
Because we have been told that Capitalism in the form of neolibralism (or the free market) is great
Most of “us” have no idea what “neoliberalism” means, and I include those that regularly use the term. If you decide that your brand of socialism requires the end to capitalism, you’re are not going going to be elected. Capitalism is here to stay. As is socialism. The voters want differing balances of the two. As soon as you let them think your politics is against capitalism, rather than seeking to improve the checks and balanced we need to live with it… it is game over come elections. People want to keep capitalism. They want a big change, but that big change is not the end of capitalism.
Capitalism is here to stay
Ah yes the system that's only been around for what, 400 years and is destroying the planet is definitely going to carry on forever.
Capitalism is here to stay
That's absurd. To say a system based on exponential growth will always exist is mathematically illiterate. It may not be socialism that replaces it, but capitalism is by definition time limited due to it's very nature.
Capitalism is going no where. And if your vision for a better life for all in the UK requires persuading voters that we need to replace capitalism rather than work with it, then you can forget it.
Capitalism is here to stay
Ah yes the system that’s only been around for what, 400 years and is destroying the planet is definitely going to carry on forever
Capitalism isn't going to be around forever. The worry is that it might still be here in this form until the end.
Capitalism will outlive any of us gobshites. Of course nothing is forever. I want a better life for my children, not just the people of the next century. Get your heads out of the clouds. Starmer should run a mile from anyone trying to hang the “end of capitalism” tag around his party’s neck.
Oh Christ! Are we back to the ‘end of capitalism’ thing again?
Guys… god only knows what you’re offering up as an alternative (I very much doubt you’ve the first clue either), but when you mention those words, this is the picture that automatically enters everybodies head about the bright alternative future you’re offering instead of capitalism…
And guess what?
Absolutely nobody is going to vote for it
Starmer should run a mile from anyone trying to hang the “end of capitalism” tag around his party’s neck.
Lucky literally no one is advocating the labour party should campaign on 'the end of capitalism' then isn't it. You were just called out on your silly claim, then tried to divert from that with a straw man. Go you.
Human civilisation has been around for around 10,000 years, but you think for some reason the system of the last 400 will last forever? Ok then...
And binners - grown ups are talking...
I said capitalism is here to stay. I said nothing about “forever”. Nothing last forever. I was talking politics not metaphysics.
Socialism as word scares of voters (now today) precisely its opponents successfully paint it as meaning “anti-capitalist”… Starmer, and anyone who succeeds him, needs to remind people that we already have socialism in the UK, and it’s core to many of the aspects of UK life they hold dear.
Capitalism will outlive any of us gobshites.
Do the maths. That's another doubling of current consumption, possibly a quadrupling for some of us (christ I hope I don't live that long!). We're struggling now with current levels of consumption, so the idea of quadrupling that is almost certainly not going to happen. The pertinent question is how it ends (nuclear war is my bet). The only thing we can be certain of is that it won't be the labour party and their centre left colleagues in other western states who make it happen.
So, you’re predicting the end of capitalism, in the UK, in any of our lifetimes? Forget it. Big change needs to come. Capitalism will be part of that change. Government’s need to lead though (together).
So, you’re predicting the end of capitalism, in the UK, in any of our lifetimes?
Yes I'm predicting the end of it in it's current form based on exponential growth and unaccounted use of natural resources. It's a cast-iron certainty. It's either that or economic collapse some time in the next 50 years. Even the rich aren't that stupid.
The only possible thing that will prevent it is nuclear fusion. Even then we're going to have to get a lot better at recycling and invent new ways of living which aren't based on the consequence-free consumption of material things. Assuming we avoid killing each other in a deluge of nuclear missiles, in terms of tangible consumer goods and real things we need to have a steady state, or even recessionary economy. There will still be a market in the non-tangible, digital world however.
the end of it in its current form
Exactly. Reformed not removed.
but you think for some reason the system of the last 400 will last forever?
Less than 300 years is probably more precise but more important is that the capitalism of 300 years ago was very different to the capitalism of today, as was the capitalism of a hundred years ago, or even 50 years ago.
The point is that capitalism has to constantly reinvent itself due its inherent instability, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence that it represents the pinnacle of human development and that it will last forever.
The most thorny question capitalism has to deal with is how much socialism it should embrace. That debate never seems to end.
Reformed not removed.
No if you change the exponential growth aspect of it, then capitalism as it is currently defined no longer exists. Like I said if we can solve the energy problem then a digital capitalist economy will almost certainly exist, but in the real world we'll end up in some form of post-capitalist scenario. The transition is already happening in the form of social media moving to virtual reality, crypto currencies, NFTs (which are a load of bollox BTW) etc. In 50 years time people will value their digital and non-tangible assets more than their material ones.
I kinda sympathise with Starmer, he can't win, too left and he gets called a lefty/marxist/communist/socialist, (delete as appropriate) too right and he gets accused of being a tory.
He basically has an impossible task and he's trying to walk the line.
but more important is that the capitalism of 300 years ago was very different to the capitalism of today, as was the capitalism of a hundred years ago, or even 50 years ago
^^^^ this
He basically has an impossible task and he’s trying to walk the line.
^^^^ also this
And trying to be all things to all people can result in meaning nothing at all… which some politicians might do well from… but not someone who is a boring character vacuum such as Starmer.
if we can solve the energy problem
^^^^ most importantly this
No issue will be bigger in the next few decades. Post fossil fuel capitalism should be on the lips of all politicians. Along with the post production/consumption society.
No issue will be bigger in the next few decades. Post fossil fuel capitalism should be on the lips of all politicians.
No issue is bigger now, not that you'd know from our politicians. The irony is that the longer they wait for unicorn solutions like fusion, the more chance there is of the whole pyramid scheme collapsing. Even if fusion generation is achieved, it won't be 'post-fossil fuel capitalism' as you cutely describe it, it will be post-fossil fuel monopolism. Whoever owns the fusion plants will have a licence to print money, and they won't use that power for the greater good.
There seems to be a bit of naivete going on here assuming that capitalism might be voted in or out. Parliamentary systems evolved to incapacitate change. When crises occur change happens outside of the institutional context eg BLM, workers striking, GFA. The parliamentary parties have nothing to do with it as any striker or demonstrator knows.
Some truth to that. But, ultimately, the voters want to keep capitalism. Many may want us to change it, and for us to be less beholden to it, but that is not the same thing as getting rid of it. That people won’t vote away capitalism is not a conspiracy, people want to keep it, while also acknowledging that we should not just be slaves to it.
The trouble is that so far, when people instigate an economic system at a national level that isn’t capitalism, it invariably ends up with people queueing for a loaf of bread that costs four times more than it did a week ago
There are many forms of capitalism, and the present form of crony monopoly corporatism we have in this country is probably the worst, bar America
We unfortunately just decoupled ourselves from an economic block with many far superior examples
We unfortunately just decoupled ourselves from an economic block with many far superior examples
You think crony corporatism doesn't exist in Europe? What are these examples? As far as I can see there's almost no difference between capitalism in the EU than in the UK.
I don't think capitalism as an economic theory is necessarily the worst, if your goal is to create wealth for as many people as possible, and of course you can make an argument about whether that's an acceptable goal. What I think (personally) the issue for us in the early 21st C is that as both government regulations and subsidies increase, (for obviously mostly reasonable political goals; employment in a region and so on) the profitability and even the survival of large corporations becomes less dependent on satisfying the preferences of consumers and more on capturing the government benefits system that (perversely) undermine true capitalism.
We have a system that is spiraling out of control, as governments strain to both regulate and control big business, those business react by trying to capture the process. There are two options, fewer and less powerful organisations/ corporations or fewer and less intrusive regulation or state intervention. I think the political fight of the times is which side of that are you on?
You think crony corporatism doesn’t exist in Europe?
That isn’t what I said, is it?
As far as I can see there’s almost no difference between capitalism in the EU than in the UK.
You’re not looking very hard then. Take your pick.
As one example, Take ‘levelling up’. Since reunification Germany has massively invested in the East to do precisely that, at the same time as London has sucked up pretty much all investment in this country and casually watched regional economies collapse.
There are many many more examples.
As far as I can see there’s almost no difference between capitalism in the EU than in the UK.
You’re not looking very hard then.
Really? The UK operates a very different form of capitalism to the rest of the EU? How did that work when the UK was part of the EU? What was the point of EU directives?
The EU sets minimum standards. That's a floor, not a ceiling.
We're about to find that out in no uncertain terms as this lot demolish the floor. Heres the MO of our next PM
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1473986391625318403?s=20
She's openly saying thats the plan. But you're still maintaining that a Starmer administration would be no different? Really?
And if you really think that the same economic model is used throughout the entire of the EU then you're absolutely off your napper
But you’re still maintaining that a Starmer administration would be no different? Really?
I certainly haven't said that. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what a Starmer led government would be like, nor can you possibly know. Although I think it is fair to assume that it is unlikely to be very left wing.
And if you really think that the same economic model is used throughout the entire of the EU then you’re absolutely off your napper
Thank you for the kind words binners, but what you claim are different economic models is based on perceived policy differences.
Every time there is a change in government policies it doesn't automatically equate with a change in the economic model.
The UK's economic model is fundamentally the same as the EU. Dazh's claim that "there’s almost no difference between capitalism in the EU than in the UK" is a fair and reasonable one.
Edit : Btw it is you who has persistently claimed that there is no difference between Boris Johnson's policies and Thatcher's, in fact you have ridiculed me for suggesting that.
But now you are posting stuff to emphasise how Liz Truss wants to take the Tory Party back to Thatcherism.
The only thing that is consistent with you is your inconsistency.
And if you really think that the same economic model is used throughout the entire of the EU then you’re absolutely off your napper
There are certainly local differences.
But essentially the EU is an economic model.
Mostly they share the same ECB with an inflation target of 2% - identical to our Bank of England's target.
But then not all EU countries are part of the the ECB.(non Euro countries).
