I have no doubt that Priti Patel and the rest of the Tory government are fully aware that much of the bill represents pointless and costly VOTE-WINNING nonsense
FTFY
Ernie is true about the total disconnect. A process started with Blair and continued ever since. Relying on focus groups leaves the party following not leading. Its not Starmers fault - he inherited the party like this
Yer fine tho Binners - Cooper will support it and win loads of votes by doing so *rolleyes*
Again this is where the labour party needs leaders not weathervanes. Leaders to explain why the billis wrong and to take the public with them
And you think that Starmer should follow them into the gutter, or at the very least quietly tut from a distance in the hope that no one will notice?
Not sure that suggestion has been made anywhere. But the point is that the Christmas party is indefensible and widely unpopular, whereas sections of the public that lean to the right will support our transition into a Fascist state via the Borders bill. I don't care if it's for shooting refugees or cheating at the village tombola -if Kier can use it to skewer Johnson and get the c*** out of No 10, get stuck in, big man.
how else is it going to discover the thoughts of such a obviously wildly disparate group of people other than by asking them what they think about things?
I would expect the average Labour Party member to represent the average Labour voter. Granted I am harking back to a time before lawyers took control of the party and changed it into a middle-class protest group.
Btw are you using the Tory tactic of confusing asylum seekers with immigrants?
When it comes to all those seats (up here) where immigration fear mongering led to Corbyn losing to Johnson... Labour has to oppose the Nationality and Borders Bill (nationalism + control our borders) in a detailed way, explaining why it is counter productive, puts more people at risk, and criminalises humanitarian help for those most in need. It needs to avoid the charge of "it's all Labour go on about, they're more interested in helping people in Calais than our own"... its a very difficult line to walk.
don’t care if it’s for shooting refugees or cheating at the village tombola
Really?? Well at least you are honest about it.
I would expect the average Labour Party member to represent the average Labour voter.
If nothing else over the past half decade or so through the Brexit vote and Corbyn leadership I would have thought that it would be obvious to anyone who pays even scant regard to politics is that there is no such thing anymore as an "average Labour voter" (if there ever was ) The party is split by both age, leave remain, working class and metropolitan voters all of who are looking to the Labour party to represent different things to them. Control of Immigration is very popular amongst a section of people who vote Labour.
Ernie is true about the total disconnect. A process started with Blair and continued ever since. Relying on focus groups leaves the party following not leading. Its not Starmers fault – he inherited the party like this
Although prior to ‘97 the last Labour election victory was ‘74 and that took a couple of goes.
So if they were “leading” prior to Blair they were doing a crap job of it.
And you think that Starmer should follow them into the gutter, or at the very least quietly tut from a distance in the hope that no one will notice?
this is exactly what a load of labour supporters on here have been saying. Most noticeably when I called Burnham and others out for anti immigrant rhetoric. Apparantly its the right thing to do to pander to racists in the hope of votes.
We will see Cooper doing the same thing overt this bill. I'll eat my hat if she does not.
Really?? Well at least you are honest about it.
If it gets Johnson out, no, I don't care what it is.
Do you?
I would have thought that it would be obvious to anyone who pays even scant regard to politics is that there is no such thing anymore as an “average Labour voter” (if there ever was )
Oh I'm sorry Nick, I wasn't aware that you are the only one allowed to make sweeping generalisations and talk of "Labour supporters in Red Wall seats are generally....'
But well done for using the word "anymore", which is of course precisely my point.
Apparantly its the right thing to do to pander to racists in the hope of votes.
Control of Immigration is a popular policy amongst some folks who vote Labour.
Do you?
LOL! Of course I care!
I thought that was obvious.
Deleted as I can't see this going anywhere useful.
LOL! Of course I care!
I thought that was obvious.
You'd rather Johnson stayed in if the only lever to get him out is of comparatively little consequence?
Control of immigration is popular with me
As it is amongst other Labour supporters
And so you continue to use the right-wing Daily Mail columnist tactic of confusing desperate asylum seekers with immigrants.
this is just horse shit to get me to rise to your trolling.
this is just horse shit to get me to rise to your trolling.
It is straightforward fact, you are deliberately bunching asylum seekers and immigratants together, as Daily Mail opinion writers do.
Even David Davis a brexiteer and senior Tory doesn't do that.
A lot of people were adamant that focusing on wallpaper etc was not the way to bring Johnson down, I'm hopeful now that it may be enough
And some of those commentators looking a bit daft now...
Starmer still has a way to go tho to get real solid support
Control of Immigration is a popular policy amongst some folks who vote Labour.
In england! this is a failure of leadership by labour. No alternative discourse has been presented. When both labour and tories use anti immigrant rhetoric then of course the public mood follows.
this is a classic example of weathervane politicians. Look to Scotland and you see anti immigrant rhetoric from any of the major parties does not happen. Sturgeon has LED the country away from that and the other parties follow suit. Even the scots tories do not use anti immigrant rhetoric
Labour following tories on issues like this will never gain them anything as they become " tory lite" Not right wing enough to attract the right wing voters, too right wing to attract and enthuse voters from the left
It is straightforward fact, you are deliberately bunching asylum seekers and immigratants together, as Daily Mail opinion writers do.
Feel free to make assumption about how I think if it makes you feel better.
Controlled immigration has been Labour Party policy for as long as I can remember. I don't think there has ever been a time when the Labour Party didn't think that controls were necessary.
That is a very different issue to refugees and asylum seekers, despite Nick's determination to bunch it all together.
The Nationality and Borders Bill, which is what we are talking about, isn't about immigration, it is about asylum seekers and how they should be treated.
No alternative discourse has been presented. When both labour and tories use anti immigrant rhetoric then of course the public mood follows.
From 1970 onwards there has been a consistent majority opinion for reducing immigration among
the British public. Since the turn of the millennium, concern about migrants and refugees has been
a dominant feature of British politics. Dempster and Hargreave 2017)
Feel free to make assumption about how I think if it makes you feel better.
I am not making any assumptions at all about how you think. I was pointing out what you wrote.
You started to banging on about immigration and whether it was popular, when what was being discussed was the treatment of asylum seekers.
Yes Nickc - although replace England for the UK
You must ask why is this? the answer being decades of anti immigrant propaganda in the press and a labour party to scared to buck this. When the poplulation have been fed anti immigrant rhetoric for decades with no one challenging it it becomes the accepted truth even when it is not
There is a meme going round in Scotland now " independence now for a fair and humane asylum and immigration policy. "
papers like the express and mail do not lead on immigration in their scots versions even when doing in england. why? Because they know it will not resonate here. why does it not resonate here? leadership! The scots median position on immigration has diverged greatly from england over the last decade or two
all you are doing is making my point - the reason for the enmity towards immigrants is a failure of leadership
And getting back to what issues garner the most vote, because apparently that is all that matters, hostility towards asylum seekers is nowhere the majority that some people who rely on internal polls seem to think it is :
But perhaps YouGov's methodology isn't as good as Labour's Internal polls?
“We” have made it too difficult to migrate to (and migrate from) the UK… “we” have made it harder to work and live across borders… and “we” have also shut down routes to come to the UK to claim asylum. We can do better than that on all counts without having “uncontrolled immigration” as if it’s the 19th Century. There are people (voters) that have made it very clear that they want fewer migrants and fewer asylum seekers in the UK… you’ve been sticking up for them for years now Earnie. Labour needs to help those people, and some how be “on their side”, while also fixing our immigration and asylum systems once in government (yes I know) and opposing the government’s plans to make them even worse while stuck in opposition… it’s all a very big ask. The current version of the Conservative party are dying to make the next election all about “Nationality and Boarders”… it’s carried them all the way to the top, and is their best shot at staying there.
And getting back to what issues garner the most vote, because apparently that is all that matters...
Grow up.
pondo Full Member
Grow up
A strange comment from someone who claims that they are not bothered whether the Tories are critised for "shooting refugees or cheating at the village tombola".
Have a word with yourself.
They should be criticised for both... but if it's the cheating at the tombola that needs exposing to move voters away from them and unseat them... so be it. Stop playing your games Ernie, you know exactly what they said and meant.
What Kelvin said - it was clear and unequivocal, but Ernie has to try and turn into something I didn't say, doesn't he.
Ernie has to try and turn into something I didn’t say, doesn’t he.
FFS grow up. You have just criticised me for pointing out that some people are obsessed with which issues garner the most votes, despite the fact that they can't even get that right.
Did you actually look at the YouGov link? Only 9% think refugees/asylum seekers shouldn't be allowed into the UK, 30% think that we should carry on as we are. And on top of that another 30% think that we should allow more in!
I don't know the accuracy of the poll but even with accepted margins of errors the picture isn't what some people appear to think it is.
A reminder that this -
A strange comment from someone who claims that they are not bothered whether the Tories are critised for “shooting refugees or cheating at the village tombola”.
... was clearly not what I said.
Your complete sentence :
I don’t care if it’s for shooting refugees or cheating at the village tombola -if Kier can use it to skewer Johnson and get the c*** out of No 10, get stuck in, big man.
If you do care you have said so.
I care massively what Johnson is being criticised for.
Growing up is accepting life is not perfect and you have to take the best options you get.
If the tories are more likely to lose votes based on wallpaper and parties than aguably more important things then play on that rather than act like a 16 year old who will only be happy with perfection/everyone thinking the same way they do.
Btw with reference to this :
Only 9% think refugees/asylum seekers shouldn’t be allowed into the UK, 30% think that we should carry on as we are. And on top of that another 30% think that we should allow more in!
It should be remembered that that is even with the Labour Party remaining embarrassingly quiet on the matter, image how things could shift even more in the direction of compassion if Starmer used it as a stick to beat the Tories with.
The reason the Tories feel comfortable pushing through this nasty and pointless bill is precisely because they know that it will, at worse, receive token opposition from Labour, and at best no effective opposition at all.
To repeat - this...
I don’t care if it’s for shooting refugees or cheating at the village tombola -if Kier can use it to skewer Johnson and get the c*** out of No 10, get stuck in, big man.
... does clearly not equal this...
A strange comment from someone who claims that they are not bothered whether the Tories are critised for “shooting refugees or cheating at the village tombola”.
... no matter how much you really, REALLY wish it did. Although your attempt to reinterpret a very simple message is instructive.
So I copy and paste your comment in its entirety and you're still not happy?
It should be remembered that that is even with the Labour Party remaining embarrassingly quiet on the matter, image how things could shift even more in the direction of compassion if Starmer used it as a stick to beat the Tories with.
Very much this and if you look to Scotland you can see this in action!
If the tories are more likely to lose votes based on wallpaper and parties than aguably more important things then play on that rather than act like a 16 year old who will only be happy with perfection/everyone thinking the same way they do.
There is an argument for that but then why do the polls generally bounce back?
It's never going to be one thing, it's going to be the aggregate of several issues that stick, and political fatigue.
On top of that people have the idea that Labour are somehow useless and no good with the economy, and not seen as an alternative which is becoming a strong narrative.
This is evidently rubbish but it doesn't matter, it's about smashing this wall down along with the myths that are strong amongst the electorate.
Also do Tory voters really want to admit they were wrong in electing him?
Why does spell checker always try to make me look a ****?
So I copy and paste your comment in it’s entirety and you’re still not happy?
Not if it doesn't with an acknowledgement that you were talking through your hat.
Edit - in response to....
I care massively what Johnson is being criticised for.
... I refer you to the question I've just retrieved from the previous page;
You’d rather Johnson stayed in if the only lever to get him out is of comparatively little consequence?
Why does spell checker always try to make me look a ****?
Because it knows you?
Oh well you're gonna have to remain unhappy. Sorry about that.
Because it knows you?
So predictable! As I wrote it I knew exactly what was coming.
