Meh.
QED.
Clive Lewis talking sense
, but I think instinctively they know that repaying the debt is a load of rubbish,
I think you give the general public too much credit. Hence why we have had 10 years of tory Austerity.
I think you give the general public too much credit.
Whereas I admit I give them too little credit. I am surprised most can even work out how to go and vote.
That was a great podcast ctk. Thanks.
I recommend everyone else gives it a listen as well.
All approaches require taxing and spending, none relies solely on taxes to fund spending
Not quite. Let's be completely clear taxes do not fund spending in central government. Currency issuer.
Central government: Spending comes first. The money has to be spent into existence before it can be taxed back out.
This is key to unraveling how it actually works.
Taxing at a local level though for sure. Currency user.
The plan for Labour seems to be “trust us, we’ll spend wisely”, which is what voters want to hear from them
Doesn't work. The evidence is there.
Not quite.
Go on then, describe how you get by without either taxes or spending… no one said which comes first… it’s not an output follows input situation (this is not the economics of the household or business).
Doesn’t work.
Hasn’t worked. It has to happen to unseat the Tories. Winning the trust of the public is essential.
Go on then, describe how you get by without either taxes or spending… no one said which comes first… it’s not an output follows input situation (this is not the economics of the household or business
That's not what you said.
You said all approaches need taxing and spending.
The order completely matters.
Apologies if I misunderstood what you are saying. For sure taxing is an essential part of the monetary system.
Hasn’t worked. It has to happen to unseat the Tories. Winning the trust of the public is essential.
Fiscal credibility rule or its ilk has been part of several attempts at Government.
In what way did it work?
It's nothing new.
The opposite happens - the media just say it doesn add up. And tear it apart.
2015 - "The party says every policy pledge in the document is funded and will be paid for without any additional borrowing"
Ed Milliband.
And both 2017/2019. Same.
This thread normally goes to sleep over the weekend allowing us all to put our toys back in our prams 🤣🤣
Just get out and ride your treddlies - SKS and the rest of them will be waiting for us next week when we really should be working 🤔😁
You said all approaches need taxing and spending.
Sorry, I just meant both are essential and can’t be done away with. Tax (and interest rates) are essential to control inflation and currency value, as well as ensuring money is circulated. No government simply takes tax and then spends the returns.
In what way did it work?
It hasn’t worked. I think I said that. At least not since 2008. It has to be made to work, and that will be next to impossible. That is the mountain Labour have to climb, but climb it they must. The biggest battle Labour lost (and there’s plenty of blame to go around here) is in allowing the mess of the credit crunch, and the unfairness of the essential bailout that followed, to stick to them, and to be falsely connected to the essential investment and minor redistribution of the Labour years. Even voters who have long forgotten what happened 14 years ago still “fear” a Labour government [ even while they sit back and watch what this government is doing ]. “It would be worse under Labour” is what you still hear when pointing out examples of economic mismanagement, corruption and poor governance going on right now, with Labour watching on, and even till the recipients of blame for things done long after they were last in office.
Just get out and ride your treddlies
Have you seen it out there?
I’m injured, and have a cold, and my kid is ill thanks to coronavirus, and I have only enough diesel left for a one way trip to the hospital if need be. I’m going nowhere today! And, yes, it’s so wet I’d probably stay in anyway.
Burnham is blinding on Any Questions. So on top of his brief as Mayor, and on wider questions. I still share the concerns that Clive Lewis mentions in that podcast up there.
Lewis is brill, give him the keys now- a real grown up.
Will catch up with AQ later.
Well worth a squiz at this from a Prof Of Accountancy
Well worth a squiz at this from a Prof Of Accountancy
That appears to just be a summary of the battles of conference. £15 minimum wage and all.
Will catch up with AQ later.
Do. I think Lewis, and myself, and others, might have to consider Burnham really isn’t the man he was as an MP. I don’t trust him yet, but his every media appearance has impressed me in recent months. A reappraisal might be needed.
Lewis is brill, give him the keys now
I would prefer Lewis as PM to Starmer (or Burnham, or Rayner), but I don’t think he will get close to being party leader, never mind to lead the country, sadly. His acceptance that the UK should be moving to real multi-party democracy, with representation for all in parliament, and that Labour should support that (as called for by its members) smacks of someone who can actually see the path we need to be on.
Have you seen it out there?
Wet n windy yup. Bloody marvellous.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1444376684761952257?s=19
Conference belter.
If Starmer can't put meat on the bones in the next two weeks with new levels of chaos (what we got now -Pandemic, Brexit, Fuel, Energy) then he will never pull ahead.
The man and his decisions are a political failiure. And it follows centrist thinking should go back to where it belongs - the Libdems. Sinking without trace.
As an aside the army coming in is clearly indicative of total private sector failure, and the state has to step in, again.
I wonder if it will be sold as a good thing.
'Course it will. Patriot trumpets ready.
Burnham really isn’t the man he was as an MP. I don’t trust him yet, but his every media appearance has impressed me in recent months. A reappraisal might be needed.
Forget Burnham he isn't going to go for it. It's a pipedream.
Lewis is brill, give him the keys now- a real grown up.
He's a lightweight, never going to last long running for leadership
I would prefer Lewis as PM to Starmer (or Burnham, or Rayner), but I don’t think he will get close to being party leader, never mind to lead the country, sadly. His acceptance that the UK should be moving to real multi-party democracy, with representation for all in parliament, and that Labour should support that (as called for by its members) smacks of someone who can actually see the path we need to be on.
You need 326+ to implement that policy, some of those legislating will be writing their own redundancy notice, not going to happen.
If Starmer can’t put meat on the bones in the next two weeks with new levels of chaos (what we got now -Pandemic, Brexit, Fuel, Energy) then he will never pull ahead.
Starmer will abide by the convention of not spoiling the other main parties conference. Pre Christmas panic buying will cause more chaos so he has more than two weeks.
Starmer will abide by the convention of not spoiling the other main parties conference. Pre Christmas panic buying will cause more chaos so he has more than two weeks.
Reasonable points.
But Johnson is about to boost his poll lead again at conference.
If Starmer can't maintain a few points out of conference under all of this - I can't see anything good coming his way.
As for Lewis being a lightweight - don't be so sure, he's got more of a fix on what to do with the Labour party than Starmer will ever have.
To be fair rone Starmer only made that committment not to give interviews to the Sun when he was campaigning to win the Labour leadership election, his supporters would argue that lying is fine if the aim is to win an election, it's a strategy which they strongly share with Boris Johnson.
Besides I'm sure that Kelvin will come along soon and point out that Starmer didn't actually give the Sun an interview, he merely approached them with a comment piece which he wrote and which they kindly published for him.
Edit : I can see why the Sun would be comfortable with publishing Starmer's unedited opinions in their paper, he simply criticises the Tory government without offering any radical alternative.
I can also understand why Rupert Murdoch might be comfortable with Starmer as UK PM
the Sun is scum
It might well be true, I think it is anyway, and if you want to ingratiate yourself with Labour supporters, it’s a sentiment you’d be wise to acknowledge. When it comes to getting readers of the Sun to switch their vote to Labour, well, I don’t know. Is the best approach to refuse the chance to connect with them? I’d like to think there is a better way than writing to them directly, in the paper they read, because it can look like consenting to all the hateful content that paper spews out day after day, week after week, year after year. I’d rather another way was found, because voters who read the Sun need to be won over, I just don’t know what other way might be as effective.
Nothing much has changed since January 2020…
https://labourlist.org/2020/01/members-left-uncertain-over-starmer-stance-on-the-sun/
I can see why the Sun would be comfortable with publishing Starmer’s unedited opinions in their paper, he simply criticises the Tory government without offering any radical alternative.
The reverse argument is that publishing the SKS article would undermine SKS within the labour party and hasten his departure
My understanding is that Starmer approached the Sun with an offer to provide them with an opinion piece, are you suggesting that the Sun is a willing party to Starmer's attempt at political suicide?
Tbh I don't think Starmer needs any help from Rupert Murdoch when it comes to undermining his own political credibility, he might seem inept in many ways but that's one thing which he seems perfectly capable of doing.
Nor do I see any reason why the Sun/Rupert Murdoch would want to see Starmer replaced as Labour leader, as you seem to suggest.
The UK is currently being led by an attention-seeking clown, despite that Starmer is so incapable of offering a credible alternative that if there was an election tomorrow Labour would almost certainly lose.
The situation is so dire that one solitary poll a couple of weeks ago which gave a Labour lead of 2% was cause for celebration. Indeed so much so that binners seemed for a while re-energised on this thread.
It was however short-lived and gloom and despondency has returned. Labour didn't even benefit from the usually inevitable party conference bounce which all political parties can expect.
I imagine that Rupert Murdoch is perfectly satisfied with the state of the Labour Party, no need to change anytime - Labour will almost certainly not win the next general election, and even if it did under Starmer a Labour government is certain not to challenge the status quo.
The UK is currently being led by an attention-seeking clown, despite that Starmer is so incapable of offering a credible alternative that if there was an election tomorrow Labour would almost certainly lose.
But the fact remains that to the many folk who vote Tory, Johnson is wildly popular. They may even think that Starmer would be "good as a PM" but they still would vote in their droves for Johnson because they like him.
Tories are apparently losing Red wall seats to ... The greens!
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1444937938157117441?t=FC7YgP4pUy6dbuCsr7uTtA&s=19
I'm in full-on red wall land, and I find this one hard to run with.
In spite of their public words the Greens are hard core Eurosceptic that's why Farage voted for them so it seems an obvious place for a Left leaning leaver to go.
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html
"EU301 The present EU structures are fundamentally flawed. Their remoteness has resulted in a lack of accountability which is working against the interests of people and the environment."
Plenty more in that vein.
Mind you, I'm not convinced that's the explanation here.
Interesting. I'm not sure about that either. Who knows!
You would think most Wallers would associate Greens with lefty 'claptrap' as I heard one former Labour voter say.
Lefty claptrap from a traditional Labour voter! (Erm why did you ever vote Labour?)
Red wall seats maybe also contain significant amounts of Corbynite lefties who are jumping ship to the greens now Starmer has nailed his centrist colours to the mast.
It's quite simplistic to think of red wall seats as being purely working class/socially conservative.
Or the poll is bollocks!
I think I was the only Corbyn voter in Bassetlaw, certainly on my street!
😉
Or the poll is bollocks!
They sort of all are.
But a small shift from Conservative to Labour, and a shift from Labour to the Green Party, wouldn’t be surprising right now, would it.
They are but they're the only measurement we have between elections.
Got to keep this thread going because if we leave it to Starmer it will just fade off the server.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1446033687833890817?t=JHcuN3ubBTQV0KTJICWRmg&s=19
.
But a small shift from Conservative to Labour, and a shift from Labour to the Green Party, wouldn’t be surprising right now, would it.
Not surprising but still disappointing that the Green party don't poll better but then I guess the traditional voters vote for traditional parties and trust those parties to manage the country whereas they would probably, and understandably, see the Greens as a complete unknown
It's telling that no-one has had anything to say about Special K for 3 days. Even the Guardian, which did more than any other paper to destroy Corbyn (according to David Graeber), is now putting the boot in:
Starmer’s gone quiet cos he’s been too busy thinking of ways to reignite the AS argument and the factional battles that will result from it. It’s literally the only thing he’s good at.
Why did anyone have to leak the report anyway?
It’s telling that no-one has had anything to say about Special K for 3 days. Even the Guardian, which did more than any other paper to destroy Corbyn (according to David Graeber), is now putting the boot in:
He's become insignificant in terms of news (s)tories.
Johnson being on holiday caused more debate than anything Starmer has said in the last three weeks.
Yeah but at least the press didn't criticise him which they might have done if he had said something.
And focusing on attacking members of the Labour Party, especially ones that call themselves socialist, is bound to please the right-wing papers, which is of course very important.
I guess Starmer’s advisors have never seen the thick of it? It’s tragic.
https://twitter.com/broseph_stalin/status/1447939727416610818?s=21
Hopeless… that’s not how you do it… you smash through the wall with both thumbs in the air… or wave some little flags when you’re “stuck” on a zip wire… absolute amateur hour. It’s like Miliband and his bacon butty… that should have been to camera… “Build Back Bacon”.
What a weird automaton he is though. Surely you'd have to have at least an embarrassed chuckle if you failed a driving test as part of a PR exercise. But no it's 'very good very good' with a completely blank tone and expression. Probably wondered what Mandelson would tell him to do.
He doesn’t have any of the skill set of our current PM, he will never be PM. Johnson would have done much “worse” at this task, but come out laughing it off and gaining voters in doing so. Pulled a moony out of the cab window, or made a joke about running over green protestors or something. He’s a proper pro. He can connect even while looking hopeless and out of his depth.
