Forum menu
I'm almost certain Abbott did it deliberately knowing it would open up the AS issue again. The likes of Abbott won't want Starmer to be PM any more than Starmer et al wanted Corbyn as PM so they'll do whatever they can to make that happen. I wouldn't even be surprised if this is the first stages of the Corbynites trying to force a split. Instead of having to persuade people to leave, they just get Starmer to kick them all out.
I think the mistake you're making there is assigning a coordinated piece of Machiavellian scheming to a group of people who'd struggle to find their own arses using both hands.
How stupid do you have to be that your defence for the antisemitic article you wrote, then emailed to a national newspaper to publish is "oops, sorry... did I send you the wrong antisemitic article? I meant to send this slightly less antisemitic article, rather than the really, really antisemitic article I'd penned earlier"
As thick as mince
to a group of people who’d struggle to find their own arses using both hands
Seems the labour party displays incompetence wherever you look. On one side you have the likes of Abbott, on the other a bunch of blairite tory clones throwing away a 20 point poll lead against a party which has crashed the economy and had 3 leaders in the past year. Funny though how Abbott is a racist for stupidly comparing her own treatment to that of Jewish people, yet Starmer get a free pass for saying that Sunak is soft on peadophiles. 🤷♂️
A free pass? Theres been bloody uproar! Did you miss that bit?
Abbot is too busy drinking alcopops to wear matching shoes. It's not a dastardly scheme. She's just doing exactly what she has always done inside the looney left reality distortion bubble for the last 40 years.
I think this presents Starmer with the opportunity to ditch further association with corbyn era
Unfortunately I think it will be quite the opposite. The Labour Party's unbelievable proceduralism and the bloody-mindedness of the Corbyn clan will drag this out for ages. It's not like Starmer can just boot the lot out overnight...rightly or wrongly...
Anyway, Starmer and his corporate clones will be very happy that they have another opportunity to focus their efforts on the real enemy rather than doing anything that might help working people. I'm sure that single mothers and minimum wage families struggling to pay their gas bills and rents will be pleased he's focusing so much of his energy on the definition of racism. 🙄
The idea that someone such as Rachel Riley experiences the same level of racism in society as a black person such Diane Abbott would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.
And to claim that black people suffer no worse racism in the UK than Jewish people do is not only mind boggling daft but imo also deeply insulting as it very obviously falsely minimises what black people are subjected to.
For intents and purposes Rachel Riley, to take her again as an example, would be seen as a white European woman as she goes about her day to day living, there is no way that someone such as Diane Abbott, who has faced appalling levels of racism in her life, would be seen as no different to any other white European woman.
Obviously all of this fuss has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Diane Abbott alledgedly being racist, you would need to be spectacularly naive and gullible to believe that.
Everyone knows that it is purely because she is on the left of the Labour Party and as such poses a real problem for Keir Starmer, as he tries to move the Labour Party much closer to the Tory Party.
This is how much Keir Starmer really cares:
Labour has been accused of still not fully engaging with claims that anti-black racism and Islamophobia were not taken as seriously as antisemitism by the senior lawyer who carried out a report into the party’s culture.
I did see this story over the weekend and my first thought was that Starmer must just be like "are you f__king kidding me?!"
There's no conflict between Labour sticking up for single mums/workers, and sticking up for victims of bigotry. It's just annoying that Labour has to defend them against its own MPs so often!
It’s just annoying that Labour has to defend them against its own MPs so often!
Are you seriously suggesting that Diane Abbott is a bigot?
She's worse than Hitler!
She’s just doing exactly what she has always done inside the looney left reality distortion bubble for the last 40 years.
Yup, that's what it is really about.
35 years ago Diane Abbott took a Labour seat with a majority of just 8k and turned it into one of the safest Labour seats in the UK with a Labour majority of 33k
My undying image of Diane Abbott, whenever she is discussed, is of seeing her unaccompanied in deep conversation on her mobile phone among hundreds of thousands of anti-war protesters in the run-up to Tony Blair's illegal war based on lies.
I don't know what Keir Starmer was doing at that time but I do know that Diane Abbott, the first black female member of the UK parliament, is a politician driven by conviction, and I know Kier Starmer isn't.
Have you actually read her comments ernie?
or indeed the orginal article
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/15/racism-in-britain-is-not-a-black-and-white-issue-it-is-far-more-complicated
No one was comparing Abbot's experiences to Rachel Riley's
They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.
It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships."
Having worked with Traveller kids as a cub leader I can assure you that the racism they experience is very real and in many ways more tolerated than racism against black people
Ive literally no idea why Abbot would deny that , even her point about slavery is daft (if you want abhorrent historical examples of racism then I can think of another more recent one involving jewish & romany peoples).
Her excuse of sending out a draft were about as lame as you can get too.
FWIW, I don't think Abbott's response/letter was anti-semitic, or anti-ginger or anti-traveller for that matter. And I don't doubt that is a conviction politician, and I have a lot of respect for her for that.
It was just pretty dumb, both factually in terms of what she was trying to argue and politically in the fact that she actually wrote it, knowing that the Labour Party's relationship with Judaism has been a teensy-weensy bit sensitive in the past couple of years
It looks like The Guardian was unable to find an organisation to speak on behalf of the gypsy and traeller communities. Odd that I was able to find two such organisations with a simple google search. Poor work from The Guardian
looney left
Are you a S*n journalist by any chance? I mean really, you use that ridiculous phrase and then expect anyone to take your post seriously? The only thing loony about the left is that they continue to delude themselves that the labour party is a place where they can further their cause of representing the interests of working people.
The idea that someone such as Rachel Riley experiences the same level of racism in society as a black person such Diane Abbott would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.
I doubt any single person in the UK has had to deal with the same about of racist abuse as Abbott. She has been a lightning rod for both overt nasty racists, and lazy casual racists, for decades. But that doesn't mean people of Jewish decent don't also have to put up with racist abuse. It's the claim that racism isn't an issue for them, or other groups, that has landed so badly.
Having worked with Traveller kids as a cub leader I can assure you that the racism they experience is very real and in many ways more tolerated than racism against black people
I've had random chats with complete strangers in a certain area of Cardiff near the traveller site, and people launch into diatribes about Travellers that were pretty shocking. I mean, yes, there's crime and antisocial behaviour, but so there is in other parts of Cardiff or the Valleys that are full of settled people and there's no caravan in sight.
This is exactly how racism happens, and I don't think people realise that. In the American deep south there was always a 'yeah but' justification for it just like they are doing for travellers.
and in many ways more tolerated than racism against black people
Absolutely. I have seen how racism against the traveling community is tolerated on STW!
That is kind of Diane Abbott's point, the racism is relatively low-level. And as you point out sufficiently low-level to be often tolerated.
Travelers, and Jews, are never described in terms that approach the "N" word. I bet pikey goes through the swear filter.
And yes of course I had read what she said. I totally understand the point she was making. Perhaps you can pick holes in the precise wording but to claim that it justifies suspension from the Labour Party is utterly absurd.
How about Kier Starmer dealing with real racism and islamophobia in the Labour Party?
Edit : Yes pikey isn't stopped by the swear filter, can you guess why? That's right, because it is not anywhere as bad as the N word. I bet yid goes through too.
It looks like The Guardian was unable to find an organisation to speak on behalf of the gypsy and traeller communities.
You are aware, of course, that the nature of a letters page it's up to people to choose to write to the newspaper. The newspaper doesn't ask people to write to it.
On this occasion, the letters editor spotted that Abbot was about to say something stupid and newsworthy, and allowed her to fall in the hole she had dug herself.
If Abbot doesn't want to be quoted saying thick things, she shouldn't email thick things to the letters page of a national newspaper.
It was just pretty dumb, both factually in terms of what she was trying to argue and politically in the fact that she actually wrote it, knowing that the Labour Party’s relationship with Judaism has been a teensy-weensy bit sensitive in the past couple of years
Not really, what has happened was always inevitable, she is a popular left-wing politician, it was just a matter of time.
Sooner or later she would have said something for the planned suspension to kick in. If it wasn't a comment in a letter it would have been something else, perhaps a simple remark condemning an act of brutality by the Israeli government in the illegally occupied territories would have had her suspended for anti-semitism.
The Labour Party has been hijacked by people who are determined to make it barely distinguishable from the Tory Party, anyone on the left who rejects this needs to decide whether they want to remain prisoners or simply wait for their own expulsions.
Is the tin foil hat to protect Keir Starmer and his cronies from the anti-semitic conspiracy inside the Labour Party?
Or the paedophile conspiracy inside the government?
She’s worse than Hitler!
I'm just saying, Hitler never suggested that being a Traveller was like having red hair.
There's a particular type of political narcissism on the far left that reacts to acts of incredible stupidity and short-sightedness by blaming the people who point out that they're being incredibly stupid and short-sighted.
Abbott is a leading member of the Labour party, the Labour party has recently had an issue with claims of anti-Semitism, wading into that argument by sending a national newspaper a "first draft" of a letter that certain to become headline news becasue of it's content is either really spectacularly short sighted, or an absolute gift to the section of her own party that would prefer it if she wasn't in their party anymore.
is either really spectacularly short sighted, or an absolute gift to the section of her own party that would prefer it if she wasn’t in their party anymore.
Which is why I think it was entirely deliberate. She's challenging Starmer to kick her out, probably because she can't bring herself to leave of her own accord, and because she knows that reawakening the AS issue will further damage Starmer in the polls. This is the action of someone who has stopped giving a shit about what voters think of the labour party.
I’m just saying, Hitler never suggested that being a Traveller was like having red hair.
I reckon a red-headed traveller probably broke into Dianes shed and nicked her bike though. That would explain her attitude
Was the choice of “red heads” also deliberate do you think Dazh? If it’s the current party leadership she’s hoping to drag into a ditch?
EDIT: I’m hoping it was all a lazy mistake on Abbot’s part, personally. But even then, it does show a certain attitude towards anti-semitism that will have a lot of distractors of the possible alternative government they were offered at recent elections claiming… “I told you so”.
😞
on the far left
LOL! She's "far left" is she? I guess she probably is to you Nick! 😄
And a lot of Daily Mail readers!
According to Reginald D. Hunter the British have a class system because they are crap at racism. He gives anti-ginger sentiments as an example of the British people being crap at racism.
Which is why I think it was entirely deliberate.
applies a level of political manoeuvring to some-one who didn't check which draft of a controversial letter they were sending to a national newspaper. I think you maybe setting the bar a wee bit too high for her to reach.
I don’t think Abbot was joking, or is a comedian, Ernie.
I don’t think Abbot was joking, or is a comedian, Ernie.
No I don't think that either. What a strange thing to say.
Well, Reginald D. Hunter is a comedian, and was joking.
I reckon you could be onto something @kelvin. First they came for the gingers…
What I want to know binners is why after a prolonged self-imposed absence you have suddenly returned to this thread with such renewed enthusiasm?
Is it really because a left-wing black woman has been suspended from the Labour Party? Is that really what gets you excited?
What I want to know binners is why after a prolonged self-imposed absence you have suddenly returned to this thread with such renewed enthusiasm?
I was bored and I'd missed you
And no doubt to make hilarious comments like this one which plays on the prejudices people feel towards travelers (is it racism?) and which kimbers highlighted earlier.
I reckon a red-headed traveller probably broke into Dianes shed and nicked her bike though. That would explain her attitude
Yup, travelers are all thieving bastards who break into people's sheds, that's why the 'joke' worked so well.
Seems like not all instances of AS in the labour party are treated equally. I wonder why that is?
https://twitter.com/libcomorg/status/1247530355180990464?s=20
Re Diane Abbott, I think the truth is probably just that she's just completely burned out? She's always done it the hard way, it's the only option she had, but few people can do that for long. The corbyn years were obviously pretty brutal for her too. I can't forget that at one point she was the target of literally half of all the abusive tweets targeting female MPs... But I'm pretty much at the point of remembering her as she was, and wishing she'd fade into the background. But then it's got to be very hard for someone that's fought so hard and taken so many hits to go quietly.
@dazh, Astor could be a pretty awful person but she was still the first female MP to take her seat, that's significant. I haven't read reeves book but writing about an important figure doesn't make you a sympathiser or approver so unless it was all revisinist or gushing praise, is it even a thing?
Seems like not all instances of AS in the labour party are treated equally. I wonder why that is?
This is a weird claim. First, Reeves didn't write an "entire chapter" about Astor - she wrote about 2 and a bit pages. Second, it was a book about influential MPs - so mentioning Astor is hardly out of place. And thirdly, the section repeatedly calls Astor an appeaser. It's neither an act of anti-semitism in itself, nor is it an endorsement of an anti-Semite.
Re Diane Abbott, I think the truth is probably just that she’s just completely burned out?
Yes - she was undeniably smart and sharp as a tack early in her career. She didn't get into Cambridge by being thick (unlike the King).
The idea that someone such as Rachel Riley experiences the same level of racism in society as a black person such Diane Abbott would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.
And to claim that black people suffer no worse racism in the UK than Jewish people do is not only mind boggling daft but imo also deeply insulting as it very obviously falsely minimises what black people are subjected to.
For intents and purposes Rachel Riley, to take her again as an example, would be seen as a white European woman as she goes about her day to day living, there is no way that someone such as Diane Abbott, who has faced appalling levels of racism in her life, would be seen as no different to any other white European woman.
Not sure how you've used Rachel Riley as an example, she is half Jewish, an Atheist, has never been to Israel, been in private schooling and university through her life and only received criticism after speaking out on the previous anti-semite issues Labour suffered.
If you trade in Rachel for an Orthodox Jew walking around London or the likes then you'd be closer.
As for Diane Abbott, honestly, she's always been prone to making errors, she has survived a lot though through her career, but she's turning 70 soon, and like a lot of the older politicians, they're not really showing themselves as being up to date as they should be, we laugh about the House of Lord with this sort of thing, but there's a lot of septuagenarians in parliament as well.
What a gift this is to the vile abusers who always hated her.
Yes – she was undeniably smart and sharp as a tack early in her career. She didn’t get into Cambridge by being thick (unlike the King).
Working class, black, female, went to Cambridge in the 70s. That's some achievement.
Alright I am no fan of Abbot but for the life of me I really cannot understand the meaning of what she said.
Seriously, this is a language problem for me. I can read the sentence and understand she was comparing different races but I just cannot get the meaning behind them. Seriously.
Mods, this is a serious question.
Can someone explain where/what exactly she said was actually wrong? Is the way she referred to different races of skin colours wrong?
My cultural understanding is different etc and sometimes a direct translation from another language might end up completely offensive.
Not sure how you’ve used Rachel Riley as an example, she is half Jewish, an Atheist, has never been to Israel, been in private schooling and university through her life and only received criticism after speaking out on the previous anti-semite issues Labour suffered.
🙂 You have highlighted precisely my point - the absurdity of it all! Only I didn't go into details.
And to be fair you also made Diane Abbott's point.
Rachel Riley is a particularly poor example of a Semite, she doesn't even look vaguely Middle-Eastern. In fact she could easily pass as Scandinavian with Viking ancestry, certainly more so than Middle-Eastern. She isn't even Jewish from a religious perspective!!
And yet despite all that she has been involved in very high profile disputes claiming that she has been the victim of anti-Semitism and racism!
In fact if she hadn't told the world that she is Jewish (although apparently not racially or religiously) very few people would actually know.
Contrast that with someone like Diane Abbott and then claim that there is no difference, and that the average black person doesn't suffer far more racism than the likes of Rachel Riley. Even a mixed race person will experience far more racism than the sort of people who have to publicise that they are Semites.
Diane Abbott has been suspended from the Labour Party for telling the truth. She didn't claim that anti-semitism was acceptable, she simply pointed out that it wasn't of the same magnitude of anti-black racism.
When was the last time that you heard of the police being accused of being institutionally anti-semitic? Would it be reasonably to suspend someone from the Labour Party for pointing out that racism against black people is a bigger problem within the UK police than racism against Jewish people?
Seriously, this is a language problem for me.
Paraphrasing, she was basically saying that discriminating against Irish, Jewish and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people isn't real racism as they are generally white. Presumably compared to the racism black people get.
Black people might well suffer more racisim overall, but it doesn't make being racist against any other group any less racist.
To bring this thread back to Keir Starmer, since it's supposed to be about him, if Starmer believes that anti-semitism and anti-black racism should be treated exactly the same why doesn't he do something about this?
From last month:
Apart from the fact that he is a monumental hypocrite and totally dishonest.
Paraphrasing, she was basically saying that discriminating against Irish, Jewish and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people isn’t real racism as they are generally white. Presumably compared to the racism black people get.
Black people might well suffer more racisim overall, but it doesn’t make being racist against any other group any less racist.
Thank you for the explaining.
Woww, I didn't get that at all until your explanation especially the comparison of other races.
Now I understand why she got into trouble.
To be fair (!), there may be a murkily correct point in the bottom of Abbot's bag: it does seem odd to talk about white British people being racist to white Irish people when both groups are of the same race - at least in the sense that most people would understand it.
However, even if that were correct (and it's not, if you read the carefully written report about racism which was the subject of the original article in the Guardian), it's neither compelling nor helpful.
In fact, it's about as compelling as, say, Richard Burgon, or Jeremy Corbyn, or Chris Williamson saying "well, I can't be an anti-semite because Palestinians are semitic, and everyone knows I think they're great".
There is certainly a comparison between the absurdity of calling Diane Abbott, a black woman who all her life has both been exposed to racism and fought racism, and calling Jeremy Corbyn a racist, I wouldn't deny that.
Diane Abbott won't actually be the first black person that I personally know connected to the Labour Party who has suggested that Jewish people can't really be the victims of racism because they are white.
It is of course an ridiculous claim to make but not entirely surprising that some black people within the Labour Party might feel that Starmer takes alleged anti-semitism extremely seriously and yet apparently doesn't give a monkeys about 'real racism' against black people.
White people looking after white people you could say, with undoubtedly an element of truth. After all why hasn't this made the national headlines and why has no one been suspended?
Forde’s report also found that some of the attitudes expressed towards Diane Abbott and other black, Asian and minority ethnic MPs in private WhatsApp messages among staffers hostile to Jeremy Corbyn represented “overt and underlying racism and sexism”.
Abbott has said she received no apology for the comments, which Forde said used “expressions of visceral disgust, drawing (consciously or otherwise) on racist tropes, and they bear little resemblance to the criticisms of white male MPs elsewhere in the messages”.
How many people have even heard of the Forde Report?
I see her point, prejudice and racism are two cheeks of a different arse. Obvious really. Although why she should decide to twist about it now is odd. Maybe she's just a bit pissed off at having to listen to the racism card being played too often for convenience.
Obvious really. Although why she should decide to twist about it now is odd
It was in response to a report.
she was basically saying that discriminating against Irish, Jewish and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people isn’t real racism as they are generally white.
And binners helpfully made Diane Abbott's point for her. His 'joke'about a traveler stealing a bike from Diane Abbott relied on well-known anti-traveler prejudice and stereotyping.
It hasn't been moderated presumably because it hasn't been seen as 'real racism', otherwise it most certainly would have been moderated.
Which was precisely Diane Abbott's point.
Getting back to St Starmer.
Looks like his team really are targeting taking Scotland back from the SNP starting on St Georges day.
Glasgow is first on the list via the unusual method of annexing it into England.
Love St George. Love Cambuslang. Hate dragons. Simple as.
I notice Ernesto that you conveniently ignore my comment about the hair colour of bike thieves?
Gingerist!!!
Just dipping in for a quick reality check / straw poll. Won't be hanging around.
Hands up who thinks having Diane Abbott in the Labour Party makes them more electable?
Not the Diane Abbott of 1990, the Diane Abbott of 2023.
Nice to see the Starmerites on here minimising the issue of racism against black and asian people in order to have a go at the 'loony left'. The more I see people's responses the more I conclude that this new sensible grown up version of the labour party has a major problem with racism against black and asian people. Doesn't surprise me given the fact that Starmer is an obsessive football fan who dresses in football hooligan garb. It probably explains the 'Rishi is a peado' poster.
Everyone who thinks Diane Abbott is an electoral liability is definitely racist!
Absolutely! It’s the only possible explanation!
Ladies and gentlemen, the ‘logic’ of the not-even-remotely-looney left
Anyone who claims that Diane Abbott is an electoral liability because she has the temerity to stand up to anti-black racism is definitely suspect imo.
I am not interested in placating the Daily Mail and its readers.
You’re in no position to comment given your hatred of Gingers
You’re in no position to comment given your hatred of Gingers
And your hatred of Travellers?
"Plays the joker when things get tricky" is what someone said of you to me yesterday binners. Oh how they know you well.
The serious angry rants turn into "it's only a bit of banter mate", when your hypocrisy is exposed.
😃
It's also funny how a bunch of white blokes having a go at a black woman for being 'racist' against jewish people really can't see that they're engaging in exactly the same behaviour they accuse her of. It's all getting a bit 'all lives matter' isn't it?
Hey. The gangs all here. What a time to be alive...
And they accuse her of being an electoral liability despite the fact that she has changed her parliamentary seat into one of the safest Labour seats in Great Britain.
Hey. The gangs all here. What a time to be alive…
And what a time for you to return to the thread binners.
Just so that you can mock and ridicule a black woman who has spent all her life fighting racism and standing up for black and white working class people.
Since you have decided to re-emerge on the thread, no doubt temporary, have you got an opinion on Sir Keir Starmer that you might want to share?
Doesn’t surprise me given the fact that Starmer is an obsessive football fan who dresses in football hooligan garb.
Bloody love the footie, me. Head down the pub-a-lub, have a few jars of Ruddles with the lads, get some section 60 action in with the coppers, kick in a takeaway window, and then it’s back home for a Saturday night Chinese in front of Mr Blobby. I'm just an ordinary bloke like anyone else. Vote Labour.
I'd like to know if he's ever phoned up 606 on Five Live on a Sunday night towards the end of his stewardship, to demand the removal of Arsene Wenger?
Makes you think...
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1651553055685394434?t=G84r_tWBphXCo0_DgDtcVQ&s=19
More shite from Starmer Island.
ooh and with those gambling handouts too.
I do wonder what Labour has to offer the most ardent Centrist now? Unless hypocrisy is on the policy list.
Opposing proportional representation seems like a very wise move for Starmer.
For a long time now he has been focusing on attacking members of his own party, expelling them or otherwise silencing them.
The very last thing he wants to do now is to create the condition whereby if they form a separate political party they will be given a fair opportunity as a new party to get a foothold.
He wants the choice to be Tory or Labour and nothing more. He isn't going to make it easy for voters to have a greater choice.
What's "those gambling handouts" btw?
What’s “those gambling handouts” btw
Bet365 donations.
Owen Jones highlights Starmers u-turns, (my opinion - he's a shapeshifting lying dick, starmer that is)
arghhh…why can’t I copy link from YouTube to post here, I have to edit post on iPhone then paste YouTube link
More shite from Starmer Island.
Starmer is wrong on electoral reform (and on Bet365 money) but this is neither news and nor does his personal opposition matter much. As the article linked to says, PR is a hot topic for the National Policy Forum, and in the boring and bureaucratic world of Labour polict formation, its the NPF and NEC that form policy - not Starmer.