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30p Lee bounce
That Survation poll was taken before Lee Anderson was made Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party.
I doubt many punters know or care who the Chairman of the Conservative Party is, much less who the Deputy Chairman is.
I don't even know what the role of Tory chairman/deputy chairman actually is - what is their role ? Apparently there 4 deputy chairmen and 4 vice chairmen in the Tory Party.
I have no idea what they all do nor how likely they are to affect how well the Tories do in elections.
That shows a boost for remainer parties. There's plenty of room for Labour to move EU-wards to offset that, not so much the Tories.
It shows the LibDems on a lower share of the vote than they received at the last general election, and a boost for Reform UK.
If the previous Survation poll showed the LibDems on 7% that is crazy. Although probably not that surprising.
It shows the LibDems on a lower share of the vote than they received at the last general election, and a boost for Reform UK.
what are their policies on rejoining the EU? asking for a friend.
At the last general election I believe that LibDem EU policy was to remain in the EU without having another referendum.
Which was particularly ironic as the LibDems were the first major UK political party to demand an in-out referendum on EU membership.
I don't know what their policy would be if a snap election was called, LibDem policies don't make the headlines, neither do their politicians. But I guess it would be rejoin without a referendum.
Rachel Reeves isn't half piping out some guff at the moment.
All the Labour front bench are doing a terrible job at talking up the miniscule problems that face us, instead of the bigger picture - like how are you actually going to fix things instead of carrying on failed economic methodology?
For instance Rayner going on about the waste and "tax payer's" money - this is a dead duck. She is now being attacked about her airpods. You fight Tory lines you are attacked on Tory values.
It's a pathetic trap. There are no politics any longer in any party. No ideas or solutions - just the same laboured arguments about tax payer's money.
The Tories are controlling the narrative about migration too - Rayner again with the tagging. What happend to Labour being ont he right side of injustice?
I'm fully expecting Wes Streeting to pop up with private death clinics for murderers soon - offering them tax credits for their work.
The ratio of screaming over the Tories being useless versus the what we might get at the next election is so misguided.
We are utterly trapped with two of the worst options of modern times.
That Survation poll was taken before Lee Anderson was made Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party.
Lee Anderson was already doing the noisy rounds in the minds of the public way before he was made Deputy of pointlessness.
That's said I was mostly pissing around and didn't at all mean he was categorically responsible for a bounce.
Anyone that's interested in economics - and the state of things here is an excellent discussion from some proper progressives with a debate around the financial/fiscal/monetary system. And how it doesn't serve the public good.
Quite long but has got some decent answers to the way we function economically.
Neil Wilson (modelled the entire UK exchequer) is fantastic. His analysis on inflation (rather than CPI) is particularly enlightening.
Currency stuff is interesting too.
I actually think the attack lines over the tories spending public money like water are good ones. Its all about getting removing the perception that the tories are safe hands on the economy / cut waste / look after public money. I think we will see more of this especially during the campaign. Its a good political tool along with all the crony capitalism of giving money to their mates for non existent PPE and appointing cronies for favours.
its about setting a tone / getting something accepted into the public consciousness. for too long the tories have been seen as more trustworthy with public finances than labour even tho that perception has been wrong
Agreed. And why would you want to go into an election without highlighting where money has been going under this government, and where it will go instead if a new government is elected?
🤷🏻♂️
So, with Sturgeon stepping down, are some Scottish voters going to migrate to Labour?
It's being mentioned a a possibility by some on the news.
Thoughts?
No significant numbers IMO
Last time I looked at the polls all the movement to labour was from the tories. Labour are fighting over the unionist brexiteer vote. Very few SNP voters will move to labour while they are brexiteers
I actually think should they choose the right leader this could lead to an increase in SNP vote. Sturgeon as she said has become a polarising figure.
I think that the SNP leadership contest might harm their polls, depending on how deep any fault lines in the party it exposes are. If that happens then I'd much prefer their lost votes go to Labour than the Tories.
Good result for the Winchester College educated candidate but I thought Starmer was supposed to be bringing the Jewish vote flocking back to Labour, or are we still blaming Corbyn?
Labour did increase its share of the vote by 3% but the Tories also increased their share of the vote, albeit by 1.6%. Surprising considering the huge Labour lead nationally and the fact that London is Labour's greatest stronghold.
Obviously a tiny electorate and a tiny turnout, and imo the Jewish angle, despite the Jewish Chronicle's obvious interest and Starmer's obsession on the issue, is totally irrelevant. As far as I am concerned Jewish voters are just voters like everyone else, but if Labour had won the seat from the Tories you can be certain that Labour right-wingers would be creating a song and dance about how under Starmer, and his battle against alledged anti-Semitism, the Jewish vote had returned to Labour.
The turnout in the election for the vacant Barnet Borough Council seat was 27.2 per cent.
That's the most significant number AFAIC.
It’s one of those seats that’s so safely Tory, people don’t bother voting. The kind of thing that happens all over the country (for different parties).
The Conservative win and the lack of change are easily explained: Golders Green has been a Conservative stronghold for decades due to the ingrained loyalty of many of its Orthodox Jewish voters who identify with long-standing Tory themes about Thatcherite economics, conservative social values, patriotism and support for Israel. Labour does not have much of an “in” with this community as it does in more liberal Jewish areas like Finchley and Hampstead.
Golders Green has been a Conservative stronghold for decades due to the ingrained loyalty of many of its Orthodox Jewish voters who identify with long-standing Tory themes about Thatcherite economics, conservative social values, patriotism and support for Israel.
A comment like that would likely get a Labour Party member suspended if not kicked out of Starmer's party. Pointing out "the ingrained loyalty" of many Jewish voters to the Zionist state, Israel, and to "Thatcherite economics" would definitely lead to accusations of anti-Semitism.
Well if the comment was made by a left-winger obviously.
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Is it just me or is Starmer is getting a bit bored? His speech this morning was very lacklustre, and his stated 5 'missions' a load of woolly 'we'll make everything better' rhetoric. We know he wants to make everything better, what we want to know is how, and still after all this time and in the runup to an election, he still doesn't seem to have many new ideas. 🤷♂️
Yeah, Bring back Boris and his amusing antics 🙄
It is all a bit motherhood and apple pie. I'm just glad that Green Energy and the NHS are both right up there as headlines. Yes, they're both no brainers, and yes they are both something a Tory government could also commit to... but they haven't delivered nearly enough in either area, to put it mildly, and the fall out from them failing to do so is _______ all around us. They need to go. We need to be rid of them.
https://labour.org.uk/missions/
'Improve the NHS' = more Streeting-led privatisation
'Improve education': would any party pledge the opposite?
'Economic growth' = nothing about redistribution or fair pay but 'we are the party of business' ie more trickle down fallacies
My word, with such an open goal, it's just vacuous verbiage.
He's not even bothering to deny that he's ditched the basis upon which he was elected.
Three years is a long time. Probably still another two to go. He's moved a long way for sure. Might have always meant to... the charge will be that anyway from those on left of the party annoyed about how he has been pathing the way towards a possible Labour government.
moved a long way for sure
I don't think he's moved at all.
Starmer has just definitively turned the page on his human rights legal career with a u-turn on Shamima Begum.
He's gone from Labour light to Tory light to full on authoritarian ****.
I'm beginning to detest him more than the Tories. The Tories were always the nasty party but to be on the side of right and good then sell your soul to Tory think seems even worse.
The clip Ed is on about...
https://twitter.com/BBCBreakfast/status/1628666086785961984?s=20
As I said in the other thread... he may well be technically right about the courts taking the “right decision”… they probably did given the law. It was Javid’s decision that was wrong, and this government is wrong to stick to it, and the Labour leader should be saying so... not defending the government decision on "national security grounds"... the UK can do better than that... we expect the rest of the world to.
I liked that he's recycled some of that nice Mr Blairs old catchphrases.
I used to like those. They were very reassuring
They used to be good at snappy, catchy slogans, the Labour Party, but then they started engraving pledges on stones and stuff like that and its been all downhill since then.
The Tories have definitely seized the initiative on 3 word slogans, but I feel that with our constantly reduced attention spans due to Instagram and Love Island, Labour should experiment with one word slogans.
Maybe they could do massive billboards with a picture of Dominic Raab and just the word ****! on it? Or possibly just dispense with the word and bombard peoples social media feeds with an angry emoji above a picture of Theresa Coffey eating a turnip? 😡
Just stick the NHS logo on the side of a bus. Job jobbed.
He should have gone full gammon and said that she should face the full force of world beating British law and if guilty bang her up forever and throw away the keys.
If innocent of course , she can toddle off and live her life.
My word, with such an open goal, it’s just vacuous verbiage.
Yup. At a time where he should be hammering home his advantage with some eye-opening policies he's doing the very opposite. The poll lead means the voters are as receptive as they're ever going to be to new ideas and policies on the radical side of the spectrum, but instead it appears to be breeding quite a bit of complacency. On this evidence we can 'look forward' to a Starmer govt looking very much like Sunak's: Technocratic, aloof, restrained, and spending most of its time telling us why they can't do the things everyone wants.
saw it live and direct and he's a more engaging IRL.....not much mind 🙂
but that doesnt bother me, I was safe and boring after the crazy ghost train ride the Tories have given us.
Anything is better than the Tories, but jeez, I'm even more underwhelmed and disappointed after today.
Anything is better than the Tories
Blair proved that wasn't necessarily so.
I am very much looking forward to life after the next general election. The whole dynamics will certainly be very different, even if not much else is.
This thread will be particularly interesting.
Kier is doing his best Harry Kane impression - he’s got an open goal for the election but you can’t help feeling he’s going to hoof it into row Z in the last minute of extra time! 🤣
This thread will be particularly interesting.
If you mean that any short comings of a Labour government (if there is one) will be picked on and picked over by people who want the current shower of a government out… then you’re bang on. They won’t get a free ride just because they win (if they win), they’ll be watched and criticised at every turn. As it should be.
Just popping into the wrong thread because it's all totally fatiguing these days - to say Truss's laughable and made up fiscal hole has now turned into a Tory surplus.
An absolute mockery of classic economic understanding.
Honestly they're all full of shit when it comes to government finances.
And it is simply this as a starting point that is creating havoc with the economy. Government doesn't spend - then it's downhill there's no way around it.
Recessions follow surpluses because you've deleted money from the economy. Ask Clinton.
I’m beginning to detest him more than the Tories. The Tories were always the nasty party but to be on the side of right and good then sell your soul to Tory think seems even worse.
I'm totally with you. You get what you expect with Tories. Everyone should never be surprised but somehow it creates pages of centrist anger.
Starmer just gets worse every time he opens his stupid mouth.
Oh and the Fed are still hawkish and acting shocked when interest rates rises are having the opposite desired effect to inflation. I.e it's ticking back up and driving money around the finance sector.
You get what you expect with Tories. Everyone should never be surprised but somehow it creates pages of centrist anger.
…yet… you came to this thread to post your take on the Tories and their handling of the economy and explanation of it.
[ I agree with your points by the way, but the weird idea that only “centrists” are angry with what the Tories have been inflicting on us, and are writing about it… an odd one. We’re all angry… and that “we” is getting bigger all the time. The “everyone else is a centrist” attitude is getting old fast. ]
weird idea that only “centrists” are angry with what the Tories have been inflicting on us.......We’re all angry…
I'm not, and I totally get rone's point. Tory politicians don't make me angry, because they simply behave exactly how I would expect them to behave. Tories being Tories is no shocker to me.
It is people who don't behave how I would expect them to behave who are likely to make me feel angry.
One of the reasons that I don't feel particularly angry with Starmer is because I expect very little from him.
On the other hand if Mick Lynch was to start acting like an arsehole that would really piss me off. Obviously.
weird idea that only “centrists” are angry with what the Tories have been inflicting on us…….We’re all angry…
You see I prefer to be angry at neoliberalism. That infers i don't support that ideology. Irrespective of its mouthpiece.
However the difference with centrists is that they accept (more or less) neoliberalism - they would argue it just needs to be done by 'grown-ups.
It's important to draw a distinction between what a Tory is and what neoliberalism is. Because Labour can and will fulfill the latter.
That's why centrists annoy the **** out of me.
Guardian columns are full of centrists being annoyed at Tories they indirectly supported. And then shocked at the outcome.
That's bone-headed.
I still hate Tories Kelvin and still join in the but there is definitely a Guardian powered shock factor displayed most days.
Tories have never been about hope for me, they've always destroyed everything. Being front and centre in a pit village.
Labour were about hope.
That's why they're disappointing currently, and for a few weeks in 2017 - positivity was in the air - whilst every Binners type, Poly Toynbee, Freedland etc were digging into Corbyn. And now they are all appalled a the right-wing mess that lay before us!
Give me a break.
Centrism took Brexit and made it the single issue rather than looking at 40 years of shit that right-wing governments had laid before us.
Guardian columns are full of centrists being annoyed at Tories they indirectly supported. And then shocked at the outcome.
It is similar on here. Those who express their hatred for the Tories the most seem to be the same people who want the Labour Party to be more like the Tories.
You can't win elections if you are not more like the Tories..blah...blah...blah
Just join the Tory Party if the only thing that matters is winning elections.
It is similar on here. Those who express their hatred for the Tories the most seem to be the same people who want the Labour Party to be more like the Tories.
You can’t win elections if you are not more like the Tories..blah…blah…blah
Just join the Tory Party if the only thing that matters is winning elections
Well they're going to get what they want again - and be shocked when it doesn't work how they think.
Lol it funny how Tories win elections by being mean as **** but Labour can't currently string a robust argument for counter policies in this climate - which would make so much difference to so many lives.
I'm ****ing embarrassed by the state of things.
Just join the Tory Party if the only thing that matters is winning elections.
Lmfao. Yeah just join the winning side - if ideology is a waste of time.
I mean we all knew Truss was pushing the boat out but this ridiculous idea that she's responsible for crashing the economy and lifting interest rates is a flat out distortion of everything that happened.
You know what happens when a fiat currency drops? It gets bought back up again but apparently she crashed the 'economy' for it to be impossible to recover.
Seriously stop. The UK has massive real structural economic issues that need fixing but it's currency ramping up and down is not one of them.
This didn't stop Marina Purkiss, Ian Dunt and all that lot claiming Truss had crashed the economy and made mortgages more expensive (wtf they never heard of monetary policy?)
Hey Centrists the real economy has been dying on its low wage arse for years but I'm guessing your house price inflated and your career has been great.
These people still think Starmer is god.
Right-wingers the lot of them.
So it turns out that the Tories in the Conservative Party don't have a monopoly over cronyism and crass incompetence.
Here in Centrist paradise, Croydon, the Tories in the Labour Party (who are busy expelling lefties) are every bit a match:
The report concludes by asking councillors to consider passing the document to the police for investigation of possible misconduct in public office. It also recommends they review the £437,000 settlement paid to the council’s former chief executive, Jo Negrini.
After accepting the payoff in 2020, Negrini issued a statement saying she had left the council with “all the structures” in place to see it through. Within ten weeks Croydon was bankrupt.
The litany of failures under Negrini — who has been dubbed “Negreedy” by council staff angry at the size of her payout — is huge.
This is why in Blairite Croydon Labour actually lost control to the Tories last year whilst in sharp contrast in Corbynite Islington Labour actually consolidation their power and romped home:
But it is Corbyn supporters that get expelled. Not one single right-wing Croydon Labour member has been expelled - despite scandals ranging from council property unfit for human habitation to £millions gone missing hitting the national headlines.
Criticising Israel's treatment of Palestinians is considered a worse crime than cronyism and crass incompetence, which costs £millions and causes immeasurable misery.
Expect more bumbling and spluttering rubbish from Miliband today about energy windfall taxes to pay for things - sigh - when the government (OFGEM) can simply to just cut bills if they need to. (Note Labour's windfall 'tax' doesn't cover the difference by their own calculations.)
Yes - the power is already there and it doesn't need to be paid for.
(They're lowering the Cap BTW - but the subsidy will go so prices bills still going up - It's a Tory sham of course but drivelling on about windfall tax is gush of the highest order.)
Also - 'Fully costed' illiteracy again! Labour front bench idiots assemble.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1629903824377851905?s=20
She *thinks* the private sector must pay for the public sector! LMFAO. Does the private sector have a secret printing machine; which the monopoly issuer of the pound - HMG - doesn't have access too? Surely that would be illegal if the private sector could just create money to lend the public sector.
FACT: all money that the private sector swaps for Government bonds - the National 'debt' - was created by government earlier in the cycle.
It's ludicrous.
telling ITV News: “He’s a colleague, he’s a friend and he’s led us through some really difficult times in the Labour Party.
That was just before Starmer became Labour leader. Then once he became leader:
However, asked by Jewish News three months later whether he would call Mr Corbyn a friend, Sir Keir replied: “No.”
The inconsistency and lies (never the lack of integrity involved in stabbing in the back someone you have publicly called a friend) might be easily ignored and brushed under the carpet now, but it will be much harder when as Prime Minister he will be under the spotlight and held to account.
Interesting times ahead imo.
Yeah I saw this - Starmer's mission just gets more ruthless without focus on the things that matter
Have you seen the Broxtowe job?
https://twitter.com/broxtowelabour/status/1630607834458079255?t=SHRFm-WrWXnv6noQfjCg_w&s=19
Democracy and current Labour are two different things.
If it still says Democratic Socialist on the membership card ... It should say Corporate Tory Baby Party
This is not a good interview given by Starmer this morning:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/sir-keir-starmer-sue-gray-chief-of-staff-refuses-to-say/
He might well be totally correct when he says that nothing "improper" occurred.
In which case why the **** does he look so incredibly uncomfortable and repeatedly tries to deflect the question with nonsense like "I met her when I was Director of Public Prosecution"?
He is clearly squirming in that interview which doesn't look good for someone who has nothing to hide.
Voters are understandably cynical and distrustful of the honesty of politicians, Starmer needs to answer direct questions with direct answers and if he can't manage that learn not to sound like a bullshitting schoolboy.
He obviously needs to go shopping for an image consultant as well as a chief of staff.
I heard that - I couldn't work out why it was so difficult for him to answer the question.
I think Sir K is dancing on a pinhead for a couple of possible reasons:
1. He's repeatedly stressed he had no contact with Sue Gray "during" her inquiry. Which naturally begs the question - what contact did he or members of his team have with her before, during and after?
2. He has declined to share his own messages with Sue Gray whilst regularly calling for messages between ministers to be revealed. Why?
3. The Civil Service Code of Conduct specifically prohibits all contact between civil servants and members of HM's Opposition unless the contact is specifically authorised * in advance * by the relevant Dept Minister. He has obfuscated whether Sue Gray requested or received that permission before discussing the CoS role with him.
Either way, the apparent obfuscation is noticeable - not just his own but also refusing to address whether Sue Gray herself stuck to the Civil Service rules that we would have been well aware of. And as others have said - it's just another own goal from someone who trades on his "laser" like attention to detail and integrity.
And then there's the curious matter of Rupa Huq, who was quietly re-admitted to Labour last week even though Starmer himself said her recent comments on Kwasi Kwarteng were in his view "racist" and has repeatedly pledged to drive out racism from his party.
He's not even in power (yet) but seems to making exactly the same errors of judgement he criticises in others.
Seems the epitome of a westminster bubble story
Tories must be desperate if this is all they have in the midst of a cost of living crisis & a 20pt poll deficit
Sunak seems to be silent on this, he knows if they block Grays appointment they look petty & desperate
Its only really the Johnsonian outriders that are pushing this, they see it as a way to weaken the case against Johnson re partygate
Tories must be desperate if this is all they have in the midst of a cost of living crisis & a 20pt poll deficit
No one party seems to give a stuff about the cost of living in my opinion.
This whole short term manoeuvring around a huge looming problem is pretty daft - economically.
But then again most folk around seem to be concerned with potholes... go figure.
Its only really the Johnsonian outriders that are pushing this, they see it as a way to weaken the case against Johnson re partygate
Since Acoba also applies to ministers the brighter ones should getting a tad nervous about demanding it actually starts having some real enforcement capability.
Trouble is, most of labours attacks on the tories over the past few years haven't been policy but instead attacking their character and honesty. A large part of their strategy just seems to be that we will just do the same things better with more integrity. SKS has made "Westminster bubble" politics his major attack line, and when their is even the appearance of throwing stones in glass houses, it is frankly embarrassing
He should have been offering an alternative legislative direction, and highlighting that tory policy, that is against the interest of the majority, is borne from their attitude of entitlement and greed as demonstrated by partygate and cronyism, instead of pushing them to the front and policy to the back.
Labour is constantly challenging the government on policy. You're not following politics very closely if you think otherwise. The reason that the character of government members is coming to the forefront of public debate is two fold... most people are voting for people to govern for them, not just represent then, and that means the character and decision making of politicians is as important as any individual policy signposted up front that might not survive contact with real world events (Covid and Russian invasions being key recent events that show that clearly)... and in addition, many members of this government have so clearly shown themselves to be unsuitable for government and in it for what they can get that it's hard for people to not point, stare, and shake their heads at them. Repeatedly.
Seems the epitome of a westminster bubble story
...if this is all they have ...
Tory supporters might say that about partygate.
"When did you first approach Sue Gray to be your Chief of Staff" was a perfectly legitimate question for Nick Ferrari to ask and for Starmer to answer.
It is something which voters, outside the "Westminster Bubble", might well want to know the answer to. After all Sue Gray is responsible for a report which is highly critical of a PM, it is therefore perfectly reasonable to ask when was she first approached by the Opposition to work for them.
What is wrong with that?
If Starmer doesn't know the answer he should explain why. If he does know the answer but refuses to give it he should also explain why that is.
This is hardly a question which will have been sprung unexpected on him, it's been in the news for days, why does he seem so unprepared?
Saying “I met her when I was Director of Public Prosecution” is clearly not an acceptable answer as it has nothing to do with the question - would you accept avoiding questions like that from a Tory politician?
As MSP points out lack of integrity, and lack of straightforward honesty, has been central to Labour's attacks on the Tories, rather than policy. So it doesn't look good when the leader of the Labour Party is clearly squirming, looks anything but relaxed, and refuses to answer a direct question without giving any sort of explanation.
Labour is constantly challenging the government on policy. You’re not following politics very closely if you think otherwise.
Along with the majority of voters then. Most people do not know how Labour's policies on the economy, health, international relations, transport, education, social services, wages, etc differentiate from those of the Tory Party, but they are fully aware of Labour's criticism of Tory lack of integrity and honesty.
It is clear that Labour's attacks on the Tories has not focused on policy. In fact Keir Starmer even proudly announced that he had "wiped the slate clean" and would come up with policies before the next general election.
Indeed you supported that strategy yourself Kelvin saying that the general election was too far away to worry about policy, apparently, according to you, Labour only needed to come up with policies to put to the electorate when the general election campaign kicked off.
It is something which voters, outside the “Westminster Bubble”, might well want to know the answer to.
Really?
You're comparing over 100 fines for breaking lockdown in downing St, during which the rest of us were unable to see relatives, friends or go to the pub
With some tedious details of what the policy was on when you can move to another job?
I'm sure starmer will look silly if gray did break the rules (and it's gray, not starmer that would have done)
But I don't see how it moves the dial on much of anything
It's even in danger of rumbling on to overshadow Hunts budget and extending fuel help, which would be funny as that's a policy that actually effects peoples lives
Labour is constantly challenging the government on policy. You’re not following politics very closely if you think otherwise
You don't need to follow closely to know that is simply not true.
Indeed you supported that strategy yourself Kelvin saying that the general election was too far away to worry about policy, apparently, according to you, Labour only needed to come up with policies to put to the electorate when the general election campaign kicked off.
Well yeah, exactly. How many times have you reminded us the policies will come ... at some point.
The policies keep coming from Labour. They don't make up a full manifesto yet, and won't do 'till an election, but we already know more about what Labour plan to do, and how, than we did about either May or Johnson's governments' polices when those two won their elections. And Starmer has been clearer than Truss or Sunak across a whole range of policy briefs... yet both of them got to be PM and make everything up on the hoof without even asking for our votes, never mind explaining to us their plans or detailing their policies. What's Suank's? "Reduce inflation" (that everyone predicts will fall without/despite his interventions). Great. Just an excuse to pay lower wages.
Really?
You’re comparing over 100 fines for breaking lockdown in downing St, during which the rest of us were unable to see relatives, friends or go to the pub
With some tedious details of what the policy was on when you can move to another job?
Well very obviously I am not. It is the "no one is interested in this" attitude.
You dismiss it as "tedious detail". It's not, it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, with no obvious reason not to answer it. In fact by squirming and avoiding giving an answer Starmer simply added more interest in the story.
If Starmer had answered on "the 15th January", for example, we wouldn't be discussing it now, it would have been put to bed.
People are entitled to be reassured that Sue Gray wasn't approached by the Opposition whilst she was investigating the behaviour of a PM, there is nothing strange in that.
'Long term plans for growth,' 'partnerships with business,' failure to support striking workers makes fairly clear that the policies will be more austerity, trickle down nonsense and jam tomorrow.
People are entitled to be reassured that Sue Gray wasn’t approached by the Opposition whilst she was investigating the behaviour of a PM, there is nothing strange in that.
A quick note here. Sue Gray didn't investigate the behaviour of the PM, she compiled a report that published submissions from her colleagues about what went on in those offices. The Tories are free to stand up and point out anything incorrect or wrong about what she published, or if it was incomplete or selectively edited they can expand and add to it. As for the gap between what Johnson said in parliament, and what he actually did... there is an enquiry they can make submissions to. If Johnson want's to set the record straight, he has a golden opportunity to do so at that enquiry. Sue Gray wasn't a judge handing down a sentence on Johnson, she was just a civil servant delivering a pretty dry report on what she was told by her co-workers... at his request (not his first choice, but we know why that was).
Sue Gray didn’t investigate the behaviour of the PM, she compiled a report that published submissions from her colleagues
She complied a report which investigated (among other things) the behaviour of the PM. I am not sure why you want to split hairs over this - it doesn't explain why Starmer couldn't answer a direct question with a direct answer.
If your point is that Sue Gray's role in the report was minor and of no great importance then great - so when did Starmer first approach her to be his Chief of Staff?
As Nick Ferrari points out he doesn't have to answer the question. But why doesn't he?
we already know more about what Labour plan to do
The only thing as a layman I know is that labour have ruled out better integration with the EU, so that makes them tories in my book.
Perhaps it's the only policy you care about Matty, so all you've paid attention to. And he hasn't, he's just ruled out the solutions at this point that you consider the most desirable... Single Market and Customs Union... yet he's already asking the obvious question... "why can't we have access to European markets in the way that Northern Ireland does"... the answer to which is "alignment on standards and cooperation on imports and exports beyond Europe"... it's a long slow path to that though... and in itself could be said to be a very (old) Tory approach, yes... no UK wide party with MPs in parliament would have complained about that approach as a minimum a decade ago... they'll all be back there in another decade.
Perhaps it’s the only policy you care about Matty
Labour have policy other than tory style pandering to the right wing press? well, I must have been asleep when they announced those 🙂
he’s just ruled out the solutions
I know.
Its only really the Johnsonian outriders that are pushing this, they see it as a way to weaken the case against Johnson re partygate
Or it could remind everyone that he broke his own law.
I know is that labour have ruled out better integration with the EU, so that makes them tories in my book.
That isn't true, Labour claim to want closer ties with the EU:
But if that is the only issue that matters to you mattyfez why have you urged people on here to vote LibDem - surely it would make more sense to vote Rejoin?
This is what the Leader of the LibDems has to say about Brexit:
Davey counters that the UK’s relationship with Europe isn’t at the forefront of voters’ minds. “When I’m on the doorstep, people don’t talk about the House of Lords; they don’t talk about Brexit. What they’re talking about is the health service,” he said. “Voters are not blaming Brexit.
Davey says he doesn’t worry about what the other parties do. Instead, he wants “our campaigning party to be listening to the people in the seats that we think we can win. And there is no doubt in my mind, I see it poll after poll, talking to these canvassers at the weekend, that it is the NHS, and it’s the economy, particularly energy bills, food bills [that voters care about].”
In common with Keir Starmer’s Labour, the Lib Dems have become wary of mentioning Brexit. At the 2019 general election, when the party vowed to revoke Article 50 and stop the process of leaving the EU, Davey’s predecessor, Jo Swinson, lost her East Dunbartonshire seat (having earlier boasted that she could become prime minister).
You might not be able to let go of the issue as the most important one in UK politics but the leaders of the three main parties have
That isn’t true, Labour claim to want closer ties with the EU:
That's behind a pay wall, so irellevant by default.
Labour catagorically dismiss SM & CU membership amongst other things... you can't bend it both ways, you're either in favour or not.
This Corbyn-esqe idea that people will just trust you if you keep them in the dark, wore thread bare several elections ago.
This fallacy that people keep pushing that 'brexit is done and finished' Just goes to show how short sighted some people are.
You said:
labour have ruled out better integration with the EU
I call pledging closer ties with the EU exactly that. If you want something that isn't behind a paywall (you should know about the 12ft ladder btw) here you are:
https://www.politico.eu/article/labours-keir-starmer-to-pledge-better-deal-for-farmers-with-eu/
he promised Labour would “talk to our friends in the European Union” and “seek a better trading relationship for British farming.”
You have now decided to move the goalposts and claim you mean a commitment to rejoin the single market.
Since according to you it is the only issue that matters, and are urging people to vote LibDem, where is Ed Davey clear commitment to rejoin the single market?
As you can see from the interview he gave the New Statesman Ed Davey doesn't even want to talk about brexit, never make the argument for rejoining the single market.
Why aren't you urging people to vote for the Rejoin EU Party?
You have now decided to move the goalposts
I dont have any 'goal posts' as you put it, leaving the EU was a catastrophic failiure by UK Government, and 51% of voters.
pledging closer ties with the EU exactly that.
I'm pretty sure we had closer ties a few years ago, and with Cherrys on top.
Since according to you it is the only issue that matters, and are urging people to vote LibDem
Urm...I'm not sure I'm 'urging' anyone to vote for anything... I may lean slightly toward the lib dems, but they are just as weak as the larger two parties. Granted I may have advocated voting Lib dem in recent history, but it seems they are juat as spinless as labour and the conservatives.
You appear to have edited your post, I didn't notice this earlier:
This Corbyn-esqe idea that people will just trust you if you keep them in the dark, wore thread bare several elections ago.
How the hell did Jeremy Corbyn come into this debate?
Are you suggesting that by not treating Brexit as the number one issue all the leaders of the three main political parties in the UK are taking the same attitude as Corbyn did? Several elections ago apparently.
Granted I may have advocated voting Lib dem in recent history, but it seems they are juat as spinless as labour and the conservatives.
Fair enough if you have changed your mind about the LibDems.
I think the forum just had a bit of a glitch, the page wouln't load.
How the hell did Jeremy Corbyn come into this debate?
He refused to take a line on brexit, as he was Anti EU, but feared losing votes so he sat on the fence like a lame duck.
He was also pivotal as leader of Labour at the time of the refurendum, yet refused to see sense, the silly old guffer that he is.
Fair enough if you have changed your mind about the LibDems.
Your words, not mine, please try to refrain from putting words into my mouth, its very disrespectfull, and doesn't help your angle, whatever that is.
Fair enough if you have changed your mind about the LibDems.
Where is this from? is this the 'whilst in a minotity coalition with the tories' and then something about Uni fees?...
I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven't put any words into your mouth. You have apparently changed your opinion of the LibDems, and I just said fair enough.
Or did I misunderstand your words? They seem quite clear to me:
Granted I may have advocated voting Lib dem in recent history, but it seems they are juat as spinless as labour and the conservatives.
Where are the words that I put into your mouth?
I also have no idea what the former leader of the Labour Party has to do with the policies of the current Labour and LibDem leaders. I will assume it was just some sort diversionary tactic and the opportunity to call him a "silly old guffer".
I will agree that his stance on Brexit was shite, trying to keep people like you sweet instead of respecting the referendum result, but it is hardly relevant to today.
I will agree that his stance on Brexit was shite
Well, at least we have some common ground.
trying to keep people like you sweet instead of respecting the referendum result, but it is hardly relevant to today.
I'm gonna have call you out here, the referendum result built on lies? that's almost like justifying a war by saying Ukraine want to be part of Russia, so the narrative to the press was clear... it's bonkers.