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They will not come without FOM.
So give them the right to remain. We don’t need a deal with the EU we can just unilaterally give them the right to stay.
rone
Full MemberThe government and the BoE spend money into existence when they spend. That is how the model works.
Yeeess. But, what people frequently fail to take into account is that the current economic system as it works and how it's perceived to work have huge forces behind it. 20th century economics are largely fiction, but when you act like fiction is real it has momentum, and when you act like reality is fiction it's massively suppressing. Any state that switches to using more correct economics is likely to be punished by the world institutions that are invested in that existing fiction- whether that be the world bank, massive corporations etc. The US is too large for that to happen easily, the UK not so much. But also, less deliberately, people will innocently act like what you're doing is faulty, even if it's not, and that can harm you.
Perhaps most of all, the politics are not based in reality. Look at the situation right now, people are trying very hard to blame the current inflation on government spending in the financial crisis and the pandemic, and not on 2022 capitalism being all made up. And it sticks.
It's a bit like playing a game where you're the only person who actually understands the rules properly- you're going to lose because everyone else will insist on playing it differently.
So give them the right to remain. We don’t need a deal with the EU we can just unilaterally give them the right to stay.
Not enough. they will not come without FOM. Right to remain is not the same at all.
Right to remain is not the same at all.
Eh? Of course it is. All FoM means is that a foreigner has the right to live and work in this country. We could easily grant those rights to EU doctors and nurses if we wanted to.
During the night rides I've done I reckon id be ok with heading howling but if I rode past something like this I'd genuinely brick it.
I've had a fear of witches since childhood. Most annoying!
^^Erm.... I think I might have posted that in the wrong thread!
Eh? Of course it is. All FoM means is that a foreigner has the right to live and work in this country. We could easily grant those rights to EU doctors and nurses if we wanted to.
FOM movement is an awful lot more than a right to work in a country. Like bringing non working spouses and dependents, like being able to transport pets across borders freely ( believe it or not a major issue for one of my pals and why she went back to spain) Like having full rights to live in a country not only so long as you have a job with a particular employer
without FOM we are simply not getting those nurses back
^^Erm…. I think I might have posted that in the wrong thread!
Are you saying Starmer is a witch or a puritanical witch hunter?
without FOM we are simply not getting those nurses back
TJ you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me. I’m saying we could give EU nurses and doctors all the rights they previously had under FoM without us rejoining the EU. I don’t know why you have a problem with that.
It's possible that the boot really is on the other foot now. Rather than being a net "importer" of fully trained nurses from other countries, those other countries are now "importing" nurses from the UK.
I’m saying we could give EU nurses and doctors all the rights they previously had under FoM without us rejoining the EU.
And their families? But we won’t will we… and even if we did, what guarantee would they have that we won’t treat them as lessors? The treaties we are no longer a party to, and the courts that were part of that, are no longer in play here.
We need FOM to gain access to the pool of unemployed EU nurses
like being able to transport pets across borders freely ( believe it or not a major issue for one of my pals and why she went back to spain)
I guess being an unemployed nurse in Spain isn't that bad then?
How much is unemployment benefit in Spain?
More than here. She has a part time job there tho and not on benefits.
TJ you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me. I’m saying we could give EU nurses and doctors all the rights they previously had under FoM without us rejoining the EU. I don’t know why you have a problem with that.
well we could but its not something we have ever done and FOM gives a lot more rights than a visa as we have now does. Also what kelvin says
Rather than being a net “importer” of fully trained nurses from other countries, those other countries are now “importing” nurses from the UK.
Presumably only after removing those who have already left the profession for work elsewhere with better pay, conditions, less abuse, less responsibility, free staff parking, etc, et bloody cetera.
But we won’t will we…
No we won’t. But nether will we rejoin the EU. It’s massively much more difficult to rejoin the EU than it is to recruit a few thousand foreign nurses. It’s clearly a ridiculous position to say that the best/only way to solve the NHS crisis is to rejoin the EU. In fact the opposite is true. The energy, effort, and political capital needed to rejoin will distract from the task of fixing the NHS.
We can pay to train people to kill other people, why can't we pay to train people to look after us?
The answer will be tagged onto an Indian trade deal, all the people you could ever want to do whatever job you want for a fraction of what we would do it for.
dazh - without getting closer to the EU repairing the damage from brexit will never happen and neither will recruitment of EU nurses
Without getting closer at a minimum to the EU then any attempts to repair the damage is made much harder. Economic damage and inability to recruit EU nurses
Its literally the key thing. Until we rejoin or at least get a much closer relationship then we are trying to do this with both hands tied behind our backs.
Until this is accepted then the decline continues
We can pay to train people to kill other people, why can’t we pay to train people to look after us?
An excellent point. Clearly it’s not because we aren’t in the EU. It comes down to one thing and one thing only, political will.
Once again - its not impossible outside the EU but its much harder as we have lower GDP, worse balance of payments, etc etc
The key thing is a prosperous economy and outside the EU we are stuffed on that
Stuill - at least I live in Scotland where this anti eu nonsense has no traction and independence and a return to the EU and prosperity is possible.
There is no "making brexit work" Its a weird little englander fantasy
We can pay to train people to kill other people, why can’t we pay to train people to look after us?
The UK struggles at the former. Although to be fair that might be down to crapita being a bunch of pacifists rather than incompetent morons (outside of lobbying/writing contracts) meaning a lot of people give up on joining the army after crapita waste their time for months.
If the nurses are to be sourced from UK via training there are a few problems.
- The qualifications required to become a nurse
- Whether someone actually wants to become a nurse (the main issue I would guess)
- The money received for being a nurse (after the time.effort required to be one)
How many people are queuing up to be nurses rather than do other jobs for similar money?
How many people are queuing up to be nurses rather than do other jobs for similar money?
Yep just lift the pay.
Wages don't appear to be subject to the laws of supply and demand when the state needs to pay apparently. And yet the right are so keen on paying the best wages for the top talent when it's a ****ing financier.
It can afford it. Everything else is lies and distortion of monetary operations.
The money is there. There is massive power in the state to do things. Any objection to it is contraction of money flowing around the economy. Hence the recession.
Transport Secretary has just spent 20mins lying about a fictional lack of tax payers money. They're all at it.
It's the perfect argument closer.
Whilst people believe the myth expect things to carry on downwards because there is no other source of £££.
Tories are doomed currently.
Perhaps most of all, the politics are not based in reality. Look at the situation right now, people are trying very hard to blame the current inflation on government spending in the financial crisis and the pandemic, and not on 2022 capitalism being all made up. And it sticks.
Simply keep pushing back with the facts otherwise expect things to deteriorate.
Get informed etc. What else can you do?
I've written a script and am producing for a documentary about financial operations. Getting various pundits together and hopefully shooting later in the year.
It's struggle but it's worth it.
The key thing is a prosperous economy and outside the EU we are stuffed on that
A prosperous economy starts by new money being spent into the economy that then generates wealth in the private sector. Without that it's totally irrelevant what position we have with the EU.
The EU can't generate wealth for us. It can supply labour but until the UK reaches full employment then all resources are not put to work in the UK.
We are the end result of austerity.
Nursing is a bit like teaching, there are more than enough very good and fully qualified nurses in the UK without recruiting any from abroad, but you've got to provide pay and conditions good enough to convince them to quit whatever they're doing instead and go back into the profession. I reckon that if you quadrupled pay, reduced working hours, provided a free EV taxi to work or company car, hired security bods to keep peace on the wards, equipped hospitals with equipment to reduce occupational injuries, generous pensions scheme, security of employment with generous firing/reducndancy terms etc. the staff shortage would be over by the Summer.
I reckon that if you quadrupled pay, reduced working hours, provided a free EV taxi to work or company car, hired security bods to keep peace on the wards, equipped hospitals with equipment to reduce occupational injuries, generous pensions scheme, security of employment with generous firing/reducndancy terms etc. the staff shortage would be over by the Summer
I think it might be a bit less than that but generally if you offer a better reasons to go work more folk might turn up.
Also how dare you suggest a progressive way forward? We're in the business of contraction of the state.
We are the end result of austerity.
Agreed.
But you need to stop ignoring that we buy imports in currencies that the UK does not control. What they do in the USA in particular, and the Eurozone to a smaller degree, plays a big rule. The UK government isn’t the all powerful controller of money that you repeatedly paint it to be in oh so many threads. The UK is not a bubble. And it does not have the scale and diversity of the USA.
the staff shortage would be over by the Summer
If you’d said six years, not suggested six months, then I would have agreed with you. Nurses aren’t made in six months. Better pay and conditions, and increased training capacity, are key. Demographics might still not be on our side though, and there are specialisms where training in one country only to end up working in another os required. The UK is not a bubble… etc.
The EU can’t generate wealth for us
Trade with the EU can generate wealth tho and we have lost that. I have seen various numbers put on it but its the sort of sums that would give every NHS emplyee a huge pay rise. We have lost many billions as a result of brexit. thats all money lost to the economy and will continue to be lost as we are outside of the EU
We do not have that many nurses qualified but not working. We have failed to train enough nurses for 20+ years
The UK is not a bubble. And it does not have the scale and diversity of the USA.
So totally this. The US could probably announce it was going down the MMT route and it might have the scale to get away with it. The UK? No chance.
Yes, the covid pandemic brought* a form of MMT - but it worked for everyone because everyone was doing it. Any radical, unliateral financial decision by the UK government is INSTANTLY priced into everything to do with our perceived worth as an economy. Look at what happened to Truss - the markets shut that down in approximately five minutes. Crispin Odey had 35 minutes to make a killing, though, but that is a different topic.
The point is that for the UK to pull off some kind of MMT miracle it just relies on the small requirement that we change the rest of the world's perception of economics - crack that nut and the world is our mixed metaphor oyster.
*And talking about covid in the past tense is foolish - as we will discover over the next 6-9 months.
Trade with the EU can generate wealth tho and we have lost that.
Trade mainly benefits the private sector, and the money which pays for that trade is created by banks loaning money to businesses. The money which funds the NHS and wider public sector however is created by the government. An increase in private sector trade doesn't help the NHS. Your argument simply plays into the hands of the NHS privatisers. The govt are deliberately defunding the NHS in the hope and expectation that people will instead use private sector health providers and insurance policies. The state provided health sector will shrink, while the private sector grows. The more people like yourself push the myth that governments can't fund the public sector and invest in the economy, the more the rightwingers get away with destroying our critical public services.
Nonsense. The UK government has lost billions is tax revenue due to the loss of EU trade. Thats money that could have been used to support the NHS.
Once again you put the cart before the horse
Once again I am not saying its impossible outside the EU =- just much harder. The UK have lost billions in tax revenue and billions more in lost growth. Thats all money lost that the government can no longer spend
We have failed to train enough nurses for 20+ years
Thank you for confirming that the shortage of NHS nurses has got f-all to do with EU membership.
Thank you for confirming that the shortage of NHS nurses has got f-all to do with EU membership.
again balderdash
The loss of EU nurses has been crippling to the NHS.
yes there is a structural issue over the number of nurses trained but now one of the tools we had to deal with this has gone.
I just do not get your idea that leaving the EU has nothing to do with this when it clearly has
the financial hit has reduced the amount of money the government has and we can no longer get those EU nurses. two ythings that have been huge factors in the NHS issues
The UK government has lost billions is tax revenue due to the loss of EU trade. Thats money that could have been used to support the NHS.
TJ FFS go do some reading. The govt does not have to raise tax to pay for things*. It simply isn't true. Jacob Rees Mogg himself confirmed this to be true. Govt finances are not the same as a households.
*It will need to raise tax later to control inflation, but that's an entirely different issue.
Oh I have and I simply disagree with you. Of course the government could spend more but brexit has left us with both hands tied behind our backs and has made any corrective action much harder
Why don't you read up on what effects brexit has had and how much its damaged the NHS?
Thank you for confirming that the shortage of NHS nurses has got f-all to do with EU membership.
We read what TJ said. No need to misrepresent him. We should have been training more staff for the NHS, and remained welcoming to EU staff wanting to work here. It's not either or. Closing ourselves off doesn't magically fix all the mistakes we make domestically. Labour need their 10 year plan to increase training... that won't start making a difference 'till 2030 (six years after the election), and won't be fully in place 'till 2034 or so... and even then it'll take decades of new staff being trained to get us to where we need to be given changing demographics... in the meantime we will continue to rely on a workforce trained elsewhere... or the current workforce putting up with the effects of understaffing on themselves and those they care for... they won't... they'll continue to leave to stay sane and have a life of some kind beyond work.
*It will need to raise tax later to control inflation, but that’s an entirely different issue.
yes - and without brexit that tax rise would not be needed and if we rejoin the EU that tax rise will not be needed
You need to stop pretending that brexit is not an issue in the dire economuic performance of the UK
Oh I have and I simply disagree with you.
Show us how you believe it works then?
Show us the UK government / BoE is not the monopoly issuer of the £££.
Show us how you pay your taxes without being provisioned by the state?
Explain how the state bails the private sector rather than the other way around?
Explain how the a swap of bonds paid for by the state in the first place is borrowing ?
All I here from you is fantasy economics - blah - EU - blah - I won't accept Brexit but I will accept neoliberal framing of government spending.
Your line of logic would be that under EU membership we flourished - but somehow endured austerity! That austerity is responsible for far far more damage.
And once again exporting to the EU is a swap of real resources for £££. We have access to an unlimited supply of £££ but not resources. Think it through.
In other news:
"HuffPost UK has learned that shadow cabinet members are being urged to come up with ideas on how to improve the country without spending any money."
Laugh out loud.
You need to stop pretending that brexit is not an issue in the dire economuic performance of the UK
None of us are - we've just noticed you ignoring the flaws of the entire neoliberal structure to serve society.
yes – and without brexit that tax rise would not be needed and if we rejoin the EU that tax rise will not be needed
Nonsense. Tax affairs are moved for lots of complex reasons. If you totally balance tax take with tax receipts it means no extra spending took place a la dumb ass Clinton. Then you get a recession.
We read what TJ said. No need to misrepresent him.
I'm not misrepresenting anyone. TJ is saying we can't fix the NHS unless we rejoin the EU. It's patent nonsense. The NHS was declining under the tories whilst we were in the EU. It got better under labour in the EU. Then it got worse again under the tories, in the EU. Spot the pattern? TJ himself said we haven't been training nurses for 20+ years. That's 18 years in the EU and two outside.
We need to stop using the NHS as a political football in the EU debate. We spent 30 years arguing about EU membership while our public infrastructure and services crumbled (despite the brief respite in the Blair years) and our economy was hijacked by non-productive finance driven capitalism. Are we really going to spend the next 30 years arguing about the EU while the neoliberals sell off the NHS and destory the last remnants of the welfare state and public services?
The continued obsession with EU non-membership is going to hand the rightwing nutters the power they need to complete the job of turning us into the US. If you listen to Farage et al they've already started on the next phase of their plan, and everyone prattling on about rejoining are falling for it hook, line and sinker.
All true. Now, where do we get the NHS staff from over the next decade?
Leaving the EU has exasperated the staffing crisis created in the EU by a near sighted UK government. Pretending that it isn’t a key ingredient in the current and future staffing crisis won’t help.
Likewise, pretending that putting the brakes on our economy by erecting barriers with the rest of Europe doesn’t matter, because we control our currency, won’t help. Yes, we’re still a rich country, and increased government spending can help us become richer (while also ensuring improving quality of life for all rather than the few)… but our political choices have economic (and social) consequences… that still needs addressing if we’re to start working to remove those barriers and to benefit from doing so.
Now, where do we get the NHS staff from over the next decade?
I've already proposed a simple solution for that and you dismissed it. To repeat, there is nothing stopping us from recruiting nurses and doctors from anywhere we want. It's a simple problem of funding (as in how much we pay them), and political will to create the environment which will incentivise them to come (right to remain for them and their families etc).
The trust isn’t there. There’s more to making people feel welcome than carving out exceptions for them for their job. Was talking to a French teacher recently… had a life long dream of moving to England to teach French. Their last few family holidays have been to Ireland… her plans are changing, not because of her own earning or career potential in these two countries that use English, but because of barriers (real and social) she has seen erected between UK and France… it can be as trivial as her nieces and nephews being able to visit using normal French documentation.
I’ve already proposed a simple solution for that and you dismissed it
that you have been told will not work ( EU recruitment) or is unethical ( out of EU recruitment)
I know a number of EU nurses. Without FOM the EU nurses are not coming back.
TJ is saying we can’t fix the NHS unless we rejoin the EU
No I am not and you are misrepresenting me
What I am saying is without rejoining the EU its much much harder as we have both hands tied behind our backs. Economic damage makes spending the money harder, reputational damage means its harder to attact immigrants and virtually impossible to attract EU nurses
that you have been told will not work
In your opinion. Pay them enough and give them enough incentives and they will come. Yes it will cost more than it did before, but we are where we are and it'll be a damn sight cheaper and easier than rejoining the EU.
Without FOM the EU nurses are not coming back.
And I have already said we could easily give them all the benefits of FOM without rejoining. So do you agree that if we did then they would come back?
In fact I strongly predict that if/when labour win power this is one of the first things they will do. They won't shout about it or campaign specifically on it for obvious reasons, but they will do it, because if they want to see rapid improvements in the NHS and social care it's the only short term solution.
And I have already said we could easily give them all the benefits of FOM without rejoining. So do you agree that if we did then they would come back?
No we cannot give them all the benefits of FOM and no even what you suggest is not enough to get them to come back. Yes its my opinion but its an opinion formed from discussions with EU nurses
And I have already said we could easily give them all the benefits of FOM without rejoining.
You are still misunderstanding FoM. It is not the same as granting a visa or a specific right to remain to an individual, even if you extend that visa or right to immediate family members. Until you grasp that, you're not going to understand how the UK is now viewed post Brexit, and the work that needs doing to repair that reputational damage. Just waving around more money isn't the answer. Yes, we can restore FoM like benefits by moving towards a closer relationship with the rest of Europe, without being members... but it can't be granted one worker at a time if you want to offer the same benefits.
the ability to improve those services is to a huge extent reliant on reentering the EU. Rejoining is the one key thing that will actually make a differnce
TJ this is your original comment that started this whole debate off. I haven't been misrepresenting.
It is not the same as granting a visa or a specific right to remain to an individual, even if you extend that visa or right to immediate family members
Of course it is. FoM was a legally enshrined right for EU citizens to freely live and work in the UK. It was delivered as part of a treaty with the EU, but the UK govt can easily legislate to grant those exact same rights to anyone it wants without an EU treaty.
If you're saying that EU nurses wouldn't come unless it's part of a wider deal with the EU then I disagree. I think they would come. I don't think EU nurses are sufficiently dogmatic or stubborn enough to not come here simply because we're not in the EU. If the rights are the same, and the pay and conditions of the job are better than they can get elsewhere then they will come.
No we cannot give them all the benefits of FOM
Yes we can. The uk govt can do pretty much anything it wants within it's own borders. All it needs is an act of parliament.
TJ this is your original comment that started this whole debate off. I haven’t been misrepresenting.
the ability to improve those services is to a huge extent reliant on reentering the EU. Rejoining is the one key thing that will actually make a differnce
So not essential just very important and I have repeated this many times and yes you are misrepresenting what I said as I and others can easily see.
the UK govt can easily legislate to grant those exact same rights to anyone it wants
You are missing key points... but some have been made already, no point repeating... I'm afraid you just do not get what FoM is, and the barriers it removes. It is not simply about the rights of an individual to live and work in a different country.
The uk govt can do pretty much anything it wants within it’s own borders.
And hence, can't deliver what FoM does... that requires cross border agreements, rights and legal recourse.
We cannot give them the same rights they would have under FOM. And yes given the shitty way we treated them then they will not come back without the reassurance that FOM brings
So the way to sort this is to rip up economic orthodoxy in the UK and convince the rest of the world to do the same and at the same time?
For a minute there I thought we were in trouble.
So rejoining that pesky massively successful trading bloc that would grow our economy overnight by 4.0% - 5.5% or more is simply not necessary? I see.
I'm reminded of Lord Blackadder heading off to see the wise woman to cure him of his feelings towards Bob. There are three courses of action open to you.
1) Kill Bob
2) Kill yourself
3) Kill everyone in the entire world
Looks like '3' is the go. 👍
I’m afraid you just do not get what FoM is
I know exactly what FoM is. The problem is you and TJ see freedom of movement as something that can only be delivered via a treaty with the EU. That clearly isn't the case because the UK govt can grant freedom of movement within its borders to anyone it wants to, and does so on a regular basis via various means. You need to stop seeing FoM as something that can only be delivered via a treaty with the EU. It doesn't require any form of agreement with the EU because we're not talking about reciprocal rights of UK citizens to live and work in the EU.
Can the Uk government make the visa legally binding make breaches be referable to the european courts, make the visa last in perpetuity not be revocable?
Sorry Dude - FOM is a lot more than any visa the UK government can issue and the failings of that visa compared to FOM means that it will never be as attractive as FOM
Dazh, you need to think beyond the individual, as people do when they choose to move abroad. Getting a carve out for you and your immediate family does not deliver what FoM does as regards your extended family, friends, co-workers... and your own connections with the country you are leaving behind as your workplace and home, either short term or for good. And then there is the legal guarantee that your own status is protected... the trust in the UK state is just not there, for good reason. Anyway, we're just going around in circles... no point saying any more on it now.
So the way to sort this is to rip up economic orthodoxy in the UK and convince the rest of the world to do the same and at the same time?
LMFAO. Let's not change anything because it's all so good then!
And crucuially It-already-works-as-described!
You don't need to rip anything up - or convince other countries. USA 5trillion stimulus etc.
It's our understanding over it that is the problem. Then direct the useable amount of funding to the deficiencies the market has left behind.
And to backstop this - 40 years of economic orthodoxy have gotten us to here. Well played.
Every time a politician or a commentator talks of the national debt being a burden - they are flat out lying. I wouldn't be happy with that if it was the difference between getting a hot meal or medical attention.
Anyway, we’re just going around in circles… no point saying any more on it now.
Correct - which is why Starmer / Tories take the position they do.
So let's effect change in another way then, that neither can wriggle out of.
Can the Uk government make the visa legally binding make breaches be referable to the european courts, make the visa last in perpetuity not be revocable?
Jeez, yes of course it can. They wouldn't use the EU courts of course as they have their own, but everything you list is easily doable. In fact it happens all the time. How many foreigners are granted UK citizenship every year? Lots. That grants people all you say is not possible. If that's too much then we could have a scheme similar to the greencard in the US (without the exorbitant cost). There are many ways to grant foreigners the right to live and work in this country. Having a treaty with the EU was only necessary because it granted reciprocal equivalent rights to UK citizens. As much as I would like it to be true that isn't required in this situation.
Still missing the point. a UK provided visa no matter how wide ranging can be revoked. FOM cannot. No visa can offer the security that FOM brings
FOM cannot.
News flash. FoM under the EU treaty was revoked a couple of years ago.
ONly by thre UK leaving the EU and that of course is why all the EU nurses stopped coming here. No FOM no EU nurses
No FOM no EU nurses
A problem that can be solved. Honestly TJ the obsession with EU membership is going to do huge damage over the next decade or two unless you and others learn to let it go. If there was a vote to rejoin tomorrow I'd almost certainly vote yes. But it's a fantasy, and an exercise in extreme whataboutery. We might as well argue about whether we should live on Mars. In the meantime we have a collapsing economy, collapsing public services, collapsing everything. If you want to stand on the sidelines and sneeringly shout 'we told you so' go right ahead, but the end result will only be more destruction and more misery (for Scotland too because independence will be a disaster for the same reasons as brexit has been) as the rightwing nutters use your obsession against you to gain more power.
A problem that can be solved.
How? You keep claiming this but have yet to come up with anything
Honestly TJ the obsession with EU membership is going to do huge damage over the next decade or two unless you and others learn to let it go.
Never will I let it go. allowing brexit to be normalised will do far more damage as we can see from the labour parties policy on this.
Keep the pressure on and make the brexiteers own the mess
its complete nonsense to ignore the single most important factor in all this and its dishonest of the labour party to pretend that brexit can be made to work and that Brexit is not a major factor in the economic mess the UK is in and the recruitment crisis in the NHS
as the rightwing nutters use your obsession against you to gain more power.
the rightwing nutters like the SNP?
Im not standing on the sidelines shouting at the skies. I am pointing out the truth. Brexit is a disaster and we will never recover outside the EU - thats the truth
Its folk like you pretending brexit is not a factor that gives the brexiteers the power as you validate them
It was just the wrong kind of Brexit, I guess...
Its folk like you pretending brexit is not a factor that gives the brexiteers the power as you validate them
I've never said it's not a factor, I just accept it's not going to be reversed any time soon, probably not within our lifetimes (or ever). The voters really don't care about the europe argument any more, they care about being able to see a doctor and have a functioning A&E dept in case they have an emergency, and they know that those things are not going to be solved by spending the next 20 years arguing about Europe. Starmer at least understands this and deserves a lot of credit for resisting the urge to talk about it.
Do you really want to spend the next 20 years going on about brexit to the exclusion of all else even when you know rejoining isn't going to happen? It's a waste of time and energy.
The lies that the brexiteers told, that so many on the far left fell for, means that we will still be discussing Brexit for some time.
From food prices hurting the poorest the most,
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/01/brexit-has-added-6percent-to-britons-food-bills-new-study-finds.html
to the damage done to the NHS,
https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1609170533542760453?t=2wBJrG6rYbUH3D41E41Zhw&s=19
the route to helping fix the country goes through rejoining, first through SM membership.
It will be painful for many on the left to accept that they fell for the lies of the right, starmer knows this, but it'll be another election cycle before it can be admitted, but voters are already realising it, leaves a tightrope for Labour,
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-referendum-rejoin-eu-b2250813.html
but its equally perilous for the Tories, their voters know Brexit has failed
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/third-leave-voters-brexit-success-poll-latest-n3x7b22qv
It will be painful for many on the left to accept that they fell for the lies of the right
???
Who on the left fell for the lies? They/we voted overwhelmingly to stay in. It wasn’t people on the left who lost the brexit vote.
The people in the red wall who voted for brexit cannot be described as 'on the left'. A lot of them were working class, but with no ideological allegiance beyond which party served their traditional interests. That used to be the labour party but they correctly identified that the labour party had long ago stopped representing the interests of the working class. That doesn't mean they were 'on the left' though. TBH had the left been a bit more pro-brexit then we might have had a labour government in 2017 and the stuff we're seeing today in the NHS and wider economy would almost certainly not be happening.
we will still be discussing Brexit for some time.
On here, and shoehorned into every conceivable thread possible, not just the one dedicated to the subject, but not in the real world.
Very few people are discussing Brexit in the real world.
And frankly I can't think of a better way of politically alienating people by banging on about it. An obvious fact which even the Labour Party accepts.
Labour's lead in the polls is now unassailable - it is both huge and relentlessly consistent. The only way I can imagine Labour managing to screw things up now is by coming out with an idiotic policy along the lines of let's have another EU referendum and start the whole rebate all over again.
Bearing in mind the electoral consequences of calling for a second referendum had on Labour at the last general election, and also bearing in mind the appallingly low level of support for the LibDems, the only major party of recent government to support rejoining, I think we can safely dismiss that possibility.
That doesn’t mean they were ‘on the left’ though. TBH had the left been a bit more pro-brexit then we might have had a labour government in 2017 and the stuff we’re seeing today in the NHS and wider economy would almost certainly not be happening.
Appeasing the far right on Brexit would not have helped
On here, and shoehorned into every conceivable thread possible, not just the one dedicated to the subject, but not in the real world.
You can try and wish away the consequences of Brexit, but they wont dissappear that easily
Appeasing the far right on Brexit would not have helped
Jeez, we're back to comparisons with nazi germany again are we? Danny/saucemerlin will be along soon to join in. 🙄
Given the result in 2019 after Starmer's kamikaze 2nd referendum policy, and as Ernie says, given labour's lead in the polls and the apparent return of red wall voters to labour, I think we can safely say that labour are better off with a policy of accepting that brexit and the Europe issue is now settled. It would be electoral suicide to reopen it. Why do you think the right wing are straining every sinew to do just that?
The only way I can imagine Labour managing to screw things up now is by coming out with an idiotic policy along the lines of let’s have another EU referendum and start the whole rebate all over again.
Agree completely. Starmer has this right.
Bearing in mind the electoral consequences of calling for a second referendum had on Labour at the last general election
You mean increasing their standings in the polls? People so easily forget where Labour were in the polls when they were trying the "Labour Brexit" line, before switching to supporting a referendum on leaving with an exit deal and outline of our new relationship with the EU on the table.
But, of course, a "measure twice cut once" policy before leaving is nothing like having a rejoin policy now we have left. There's nothing to be gained in England in having that debate at the next election. That doesn't mean ignoring and not mitigating or improving the situation the UK is in now after leaving in the way we did.
And frankly I can’t think of a better way of politically alienating people by banging on about it. An obvious fact which even the Labour Party accepts.
Yeah, i agree with all of what you said, particularly this bit, Brexit was that once in a lifetime event, i cannot see how we could ever role it back without costing us even more money in the long run, we lost all our privileges on exit, we won't get them back if we rejoin, we won't get any rebate, we'd be made to jump through hoop after hoop by the French as they do not want the UK as part of the EU again, i honestly can't see a way where us rejoining gets us into a better place.
The next decade will be huge across the EU as well, the longer Russia/Ukraine goes on, the more Russia starts turning off the pipelines and asking for countries to pick sides, it'll start driving a bigger wedge in the EU, and may well in turn open up a reorg that could benefit the UK, if we have a government that's not all about self interest or the interest of the few.
Jeez, we’re back to comparisons with nazi germany again are we?
Putin's Russia would be more relevant 😉. because it shows that if you give ground to nationalists it only embolden them
Given the result in 2019 after Starmer’s kamikaze 2nd referendum policy, and as Ernie says,
Conviniently ignoring that corbyns personal opinion polling was the worst on record and as much a factor in the result as Brexit....
The difference between now & then is that even red wall voters are starting to realise how badly Brexit has failed
It'll be after the next GE before the swing is big enough, but it will come
Do you really want to spend the next 20 years going on about brexit to the exclusion of all else even when you know rejoining isn’t going to happen? It’s a waste of time and energy.
In 20 years ( an awful lot less than that in rality IMO) Scotland will be independent and back in the EU.
but not in the real world.
Very few people are discussing Brexit in the real world.
And frankly I can’t think of a better way of politically alienating people by banging on about it. An obvious fact which even the Labour Party accepts.
Scotland not the real world then? Because we have a party that are not cowards and are capable of telling the truth its very much not a dead topic her - and similarly amongst folk I know in England. Its discussed all the time