Can we stop with the repeated straw man line that "the government have/has/had a team with a better handle on modern day communication and campaigning" means anything like "Labour need to copy the government" ... no one has said the latter.
What ethics and principles does Keir Starmer have? Hiding his funding and pretending to be a unity candidate during the leadership campaign.
People like Boris because he's a 'good time' PM who says funny things and is patriotic and makes people feel ok about blaming foreigners and the loony left for everything. It really is a UK trump situation.
What is Keir Starmer offering other than saying 'I'm a bit more competent than him but super-boring and not really into the patriotism thing I apparently have to do, and it turns out I'm not really that principled'.
@kelvin I know your crush on binners is still overwhelming but that's exactly what he is saying.
Labour still just don’t seem to get it at all. I think a lot of them think they are ‘above’ all this type of thing, which is why the Tories are pummelling Labour on the messaging front. They don’t consider themselves ‘above’ anything. They’ll use all means available to win elections, without bothering themselves with the ethical niceties, or stopping to tell each other how good at this they are
What else could he mean by this ^^^^
And lol at you doing your own straw man while complaining about straw men 🤣
It has bugger all to do with poor communication. There is no message to communicate.
Edit : Well hopefully there will be soon, when someone tells Keir Starmer what to believe in.
The question is how convincing will the electorate find Starmer's newfound sincerity.
Edit 2 : I have no doubt that whatever is eventually decided the message will be that it won't be significantly different to the Tory's, Starmer will be advised that otherwise it will be too risky.
Which of course will render the whole exercise completely pointless. Unless you think a Labour government indistinguishable from a Tory government is a worthwhile exercise.
Voters aren’t saying that they don’t know what Labour stands for because of poor communication, they are saying it because the Labour Party doesn’t know what it stands for
This is the fundamental problem. A superbly delivered nothing is still nothing.
What else could he mean by this ^^^^
It describes how the Tories act, and what Labour is up against.
I know your crush on binners is still overwhelming but that’s exactly what he is saying.
I disagree with Binners often. I'm one of those lefties that only started voting Labour when Corbyn moved their policies "to the left"... and obviously that's not where he's coming from. I just don't want to join in with the circle jerk, or love triangle, or whatever you want to describe how these threads descend into a spiral of a few strident left wingers against the world (or more often against one or two individuals.... because guess what... the "world" has long since stopped listening).
It describes how the Tories act, and what Labour is up against.
Ok, so apart from praising the brilliant Tories what is binners suggesting then do we think? Be more good at stuff? Do better at things?
Why did no one think of that before!
Lol! Old RamFlo's on good form today...
Little bit of sick down his front...
Ok, so apart from praising the brilliant Tories what is binners suggesting then do we think?
Arguing against the idea that you just speak from the heart and win UK wide elections? That communication and campaign strategy is much more than that? That was what I was suggesting anyway, Binners I can’t speak for.
Why is he terrible when he should be so good?
Starmer was an exceptional lawyer. The McLibel case was a landmark in British legal history. Sadly, it seems the power he enjoyed as DPP and head of the CPS, went to his head a bit, and he seems to have lost his way, ideologically. Which is why he's so utterly useless when it comes to having a clear, concise agenda. He just doesn't know which side of the fence to sit on. The feeble 'support' of Dawn Butler being just one example; he should be out there denouncing BloJo as a liar, every single day, at every single opportunity. Just keep repeating the word 'liar', and show no fear of any possible consequences. Show some real strength. Grow a pair, basically. But he's too wrapped up in the lure of the Establishment, to want to rock the boat at all.
I disagree with Binners often
Sure you do.
You just feel the need to act like his advocate because he is a very busy man who doesn't have the time to always explain what exactly he means.
I'm sure he greatly appreciates you speaking on his behalf as he keeps to his busy schedule.
Hey btw binners, how's your colouring in going? Don't forget you are not supposed to eat the crayons.
I'd steer well clear of doctors, teachers, nurses, politicians, engineers, scientists, pythons, all been bloody sixth formers. Give me a half-witted philistine any day.
I wasn't even talking about Binners.... I was being dismissive about stuff like...
the Labour Party needs to elect a leader who is a lying attention-seeking clown who will willingly shaft the British people
Don’t forget Labour should apparently use fraudulently collected data to micro target misleading adverts at specific groups on social media
That isn't what Labour should be doing. But it is what they are up against. In contrast, Starmer is unable to engage the electorate, and Labour have overly relied on their supporters to spread the message on social media "organically". It's quaint. It does help some people feel a part of something special, and outside the system... but that isn't where most voters can be reached.
And the labour party managing to communicate with some sixth formers via Twitter
I do love how you sneer at people but display absolutely no understanding yourself. You really are the perfect dunning kruger example.
Watch the Cambridge Analytica documentary to see how they micro-targeted specific messaging to specific audiences utilising data-mining
Aside from the success of these really havent been demonstrated. We have lots of statements about how powerful it was, mainly by their sales staff, but no clear evidence it really worked well. Whilst vote leave provided multiple contrary messages to different group they really werent on the micro scale and most relied on having the multiple well funded campaigns able to sell different things and the unwillingness of anyone to push them on it.
About the only clever thing they did in 2019 was simply hide away from the press which worked since the press then felt obliged to simply report the claims minus any questions.
The Tory’s under May were just as crap, thats all.
And yet May delivered a massive increase in the tory vote well beyond what Johnson got. If you, and I accept this might be sixth form standard stuff so beyond you, look at the actual figures the difference in votes wasnt due to a massive increase in tory turn out but a labour collapse.
There is the constant claim that the newspapers and traditional media dont matter but whilst social media echo chambers definitely have an effect if you bother looking at them you will see they tend to pick on the traditional media soundbites and amplify them.
There is a good reason GB News has been created.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/conservative-party-social-media-facebook-general-election
https://www.economist.com/britain/2020/01/18/how-the-conservatives-won-the-social-media-campaign
Labour understand the importance of Social Media. They put a lot of effort into the content and put the money into helping distribute that message... but they were outplayed in 2019 when it comes to targeting the right people with a message that can make a difference, and are still being outplayed now (it doesn't help that Starmer looks like a hostage reading from a script in his video content).
I’ve recently read some research* that shows that fully 1/3 of the population are primed to have authoritarian pre-disposition, they value “oneness and sameness…” and amazingly, it’s heritable...
George Orwell was writing about such things over 70 years ago...
I’d be a bit wary of these essentialist accounts of ‘the human condition
i know right, bloody academics and their research, what do they know, eh?
The problem with relying solely on academic theory, is that it doesn't tell the whole story; a lot of it may be based on theoretical 'models' rather than actual data, and even stuff based on data, is subject to how that data is collected, collated and presented. Theory of such kind should always be backed up by empirical evidence and real world experience, if it's to be at all reliable as information. And this comes back to Labour's current woes; their whole strategy seems to be based on theory, rather than actually talking to real people. Corbyn had a policy of talking and listening to actual people. Finding out what voters actually wanted, rather than arrogantly assuming what is 'best' for them, as the current leadership seems to be doing.
Labour understand the importance of Social Media.
The problem is none of those links show its effectiveness or not. One shows nothing more than the tories hiring some people.
When you look at the figures though the amazing campaign doesnt actually look so amazing. May delivered a far greater increase in the tory vote then Johnson did. His massive victory was due to the drop in the Labour vote and FPTP.
May delivered a far greater increase in the tory vote then Johnson did.
And lost seats. See my comment about "targeting the right people with a message that can make a difference". Johnson's team knocked it out of the park compared to May's in this respect... while Labour... well... they did better in 2017 than 2019, that's for sure.
Johnson’s team knocked it out of the park compared to May’s in this respec
Did they?
they did better in 2017 than 2019, that’s for sure.
Well yes and thats the point really. Again in most of the seats it wasnt the growth of the tories but instead the drop in Labour. Now you could try and say that was down to the tory social media messaging but I would suggest the impact of several years of press campaigns would have been rather more important.
Now you could try and say that was down to the tory social media messaging but I would suggest the impact of several years of press campaigns would have been rather more important.
Really? Even in a world where no one reads the papers, but at the same time nearly everyone uses social media? I find it implausible, TBH. The Sun has not quite 3 million readers and a circulation of 1.2 million, and there are 53 million SM users. (77% of the population). I think the press may have had a voice a few years ago, but when Murdoch writes down the value of The Sun to £0.00, you know it's days are numbered.
Even in a world where no one reads the papers, but at the same time nearly everyone uses social media?
Aside from when you look at social media it generally is repeating news stories as opposed to spinning up new stuff from scratch.
There is a very good reason why Murdoch keeps all those outlets going and why new ones are being spun up.
Does social media count, sure it does but the claim being made was the tory central office manipulating social media. The evidence for that I would suggest is far less clear.
Labour understand the importance of Social Media
Lol!
This thread is good for comedy value, if nothing else...
Posted before, but timely:
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/uk-labour-party-hires-former-israeli-spy
"His LinkedIn profile states that he was deputy head of the Israeli Labor Party’s campaign for the April 2019 general election to the country’s parliament, the Knesset.
That election saw the once dominant Israeli Labor Party collapse to just six seats"
Labour understand the importance of Social Media
This thread is good for comedy value, if nothing else…
Labour absolutely do understand the importance of Social Media. You only have to look at how much they spend on it, and how much content they share and spread with it. That they don't get it right is the claim. Or at least that in 2019 and since that the Conservatives have used it more effectively.
Labour absolutely do understand the importance of Social Media
Ok then. 😀
That they don’t get it right is the claim. Or at least that in 2019 and since that the Conservatives have used it more effectively
The problem in 2019 wasn't that Labour failed to get its message across.
The problem was that on the most important issue of the day the message was a complete fudge designed to mean different things to different people in a desperate attempt to satisfy most people when in fact it satisfied almost no one.
"Constructive ambiguity" FFS Corbyn you dozy middle-class liberal ****.
Part of the print medias power is that the BBC just reports whatever is in the newspapers.
The Tories social media campaign was a complete trouncing of Corbyn's character, Labour SHOULD copy this. Boris has so much they could go after. His affairs, his children, his racism, homophobia etc, dodgy russian bungs etc etc
NB I'm not on Facebook so maybe they do? On Twitter it is mostly above the belt stuff. I'd be going after his affairs and children. Jennifer Arcuri stuff ffs!
Labour MPs seem to prefer attacking woolly examples of Marxism these days. Instead of pushing against the failed market with which there are countless examples.
I'm looking at you Chris Bryant. Any utter moron can see the state's value in keeping the economy alive.
(They're not actually that good at being right-wing either... )
Maybe Ian Austin was.
His affairs, his children, his racism, homophobia etc, dodgy russian bungs etc etc
But all this stuff is common knowledge anyway. It's all out there in the public domain and has been for as long as anyone can remember.
The problem is that a lot of the electorate seem to just roll their eyes and say "oh that Boris... he's a one, isn't he?" like they're talking about a cute little puppy thats just pissed on the rug. Another section are perfectly ok with the racism and homophobia, as it reflects their own racism and homophobia, and they also approve of the fact that he's a serial shagger.
For the last couple of months you've had his former closest advisor all over the media giving us chapter and verse about his unsuitability for the office he presently holds, and his callous disinterest in those who have died of Covid, but it just makes those of us who were always appalled by him, even more so and doesn't seem to even register with those who voted for him
It's literally the Leader of the Opposition's job to challenge Boris. All Armrest has done so far, is mumble something about 'patriotism', and agree with the government.
The problem is...
That you really don't understand very much about politics, do you?
That you really don’t understand very much about politics, do you?
And you really don't understand what the average person is interested/not interested in so there you go.
Dont agree Binners. If people keep going on about Boris' affairs etc then it will get through- especially his kids imo. How long did they have to keep calling Corbz AS before it made a difference? Through 2 election cycles FFS.
And you really don’t understand what the average person is interested/not interested in
Far more than you do. So there you go. 😀
If people keep going on about Boris’ affairs etc then it will get through
This. Just keep plugging away with the same line; 'Boris is a liar'. At every given opportunity. Add in 'Boris/the tories will destroy the NHS', etc. Drip. Drip. Drip. Given they already know that worked to undermine Corbyn, I really cannot understand why such supposedly intelligent people can't understand a similar tactic would work against Boris. It's almost like they don't actually want to win an election to bring about societal change...
If people keep going on about Boris’ affairs etc then it will get through- especially his kids imo.
The affairs probably wouldnt hit much but the general giving contracts to make and how much of their funds are coming from groups who arent necessarily aligned with the general taxpayer could be effective. Ask why exactly the taxpayer is coughing up billions for the building industries decision to use dangerous cladding and whether it might be linked to the donors.
As you say though constant and overwhelming repetition is key though. Preferably whilst making sure that if any of the same issues occur for other parties they get rapidly covered over.
Dont agree Binners. If people keep going on about Boris’ affairs etc then it will get through- especially his kids imo. How long did they have to keep calling Corbz AS before it made a difference? Through 2 election cycles FFS.
Mixed feelings, by all means attack at every opportunity.
But people give the Tories much more slack. Remember the absolute stick Corbyn got for his apparently scruffy jacket - yeah well Boris never seems well turned out to me. Doesn't stick for Tories .
They're given an easy ride by the people that vote for them.
Corbyn faced an absolutely misguided onslaught. That's never going to happen here.
Like Richard Murphy said we need a quiet revolution. Somehow.
Remember the absolute stick Corbyn got for his apparently scruffy jacket – yeah well Boris never seems well turned out to me.
That again though is a press amplification. People knew they were supposed to be upset since they were given endless pages saying how bad it is.
With Johnson though there was just an accidental replacement of him on remembrance sunday looking completely hung over and moving at the wrong time with one of him looking slightly less of a sack of shit.
Attack the hypocrites. When there is one of them on a show ask them to explain it.
As you say though constant and overwhelming repetition is key though.
The liar line of attack is the one that will stick. But it needs to come from Starmer and the labour front bench, not unknown lefty backbenchers. As a bit of brazen theatre Starmer could call boris a liar to his face at PMQs and get himself thrown out. He’d then have a couple of days of the news cycle at his disposal to hammer the point home, and would show the voters that he has some fight in him. He won’t though will he? Because he’s too deferential and respectful of those who hold power, like a good establishment man should be.
Far more than you do.
Fair enough but just to let you know, what you post here suggests shows you don't know what the average voter is interested in, or more importantly, not interested in.
People are not generally interested in politics, they don't spend more than a few minutes reading a headline (they don't go and research the facts/truth), they don't study the policies, they don't watch anything going on in parliament and so on.
Agree with everything here - but the minute Starmer did any theatrics like this the papers would go and find something in his past that makes him look hypocritical.
Then turn up to eleven.
He's a Sir though, so this isn't going to happen.
He has spoken
Somewhat lacking in specifics which isnt great when you are attacking, albeit weakly, others for not having those specifics.
Hi Risk Anus just seems keen to return to the status quo ante.
Clive Lewis good on Any Questions at the mo.
Clive Lewis good on Any Questions at the mo.
He is good. Lots of strong qualities.
"What do you think about Afghanistan situation Clive?"
"Well when I served there I thought ..."
A bit damning of SKS, no love lost it would seem.
A bit damning of SKS, no love lost it would seem.
CL didn't get past the first round of the last leadership contest
