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<disengages from the thread before the North Korean style clique assemble for death by reductio ad absurdum>
You could just admit that you spewed out your comment without bothering to check anything beyond the headlines.
It is okay to do so. All it shows is that you havent learnt the basics of print journalism.
Probably best though to go waahhhhhh everyone is picking on me and they are all NK types.
That’s not meant in a light-hearted way, either, she is actually showing some signs of genuine illness. It is her time to bow out gracefully.
Your diagnosis is based on your extensive medical training? Or is it a personal attack because you don't like her stating the obvious?
Meh, as Dissonance says, she hasn't said anything out of turn, it's just the same press that's 'reopened' this investigation going around looking for comments to then use to stoke the flames.
Dianne Abbot has her faults, and i do agree that she is starting to get a little prone to issues, but she is nearing 70 and should be handing over the reins to someone else, it's never a good thing to stay in politics as the world passes you by, we have way too many politicians like that unfortunately, then again we also have a load of young career politicians at the other end of the spectrum, it's a bit of a crap time for politics!
it’s never a good thing to stay in politics as the world passes you by
John Enoch covered that "All political lives, unless they are cut off in midstream at a happy juncture, end in failure,"
I know you are a factional extremist
This thread is so much fun. Corbyn got me voting Labour. I think he made a mistake staying leader when he should have paved the way for a (left wing) successor after losing an election. I also don’t think he has played his part in helping Labour sort out its problems since he stepped down. Not sure why those views makes me a factional extremist, they’re fairly mainstream with a lot of Labour voters, but hey. And I think like many Labour voters, and voters who might consider Labour next time, hearing less about Corbyn would be very welcome at this point.
Abbot has been a great MP. Maybe not as sharp as she was, but deserves respect for her work in parliament over the decades. She still has the nouse to be able to create trouble with plausible deniability. But she is deliberately causing trouble. No point pretending otherwise.
Not sure why those views makes me a factional extremist
Simple really. Did you bother to read what she actually said before declaring it "factional" and "deliberately destructive"?
Yes clearly shows you are a factional extremist.
No shows some severe bias which points towards being a factional extremist.
The right answer would have been to read what she said and go yeah thats reasonable since it defends him but upholds the idea that our leaders should actually lead.
Admittedly it would be a travesty if Starmer resigned for a fixed penalty whilst Johnson didnt but do we really want everyone to lower themselves to Johnsons level or instead demonstrate some honour still exists?
I heard what she said. I didn’t need to read it. Abbot has done this before, some nice little reasonable comment quietly mumbled, followed by a nice clear “he’ll have to resign” in a tone that suggests she’s hopeful that day comes soon. “He’ll have to resign if Labour lose the by-election”. I think Labour should replace him. But I’m not a Labour MP, and ex shadow cabinet minister, what I say does no damage to the party in the view of voters. She’s listened to (rightly so) and should use her media access and political history to better effect.
So which part exactly did you feel was wrong?
Do you feel if he is found guilty he should ignore it and lower himself to Johnsons level?
Given she said she didnt think that was the case.
For Starmer to be so vocal that Johnson should resign if fined he would have to be very clear in his head that he would never get fined for the same. If not then he is even more useless than most people on this thread think he is as that would have been the biggest own goal ever.
Starmer shouldn't have based his whole strategy on this premise. It was an utter waste of time.
Clearly he did start to turn towards the cost of living in the last few weeks. Wonder why?
He's clearly not as forensic as everyone thought otherwise he'd have cleared this up ages ago.
The press and the people have got it now, and that makes it too late in the minds of the electorate.
Polls will be interesting!
Dissonance saying to kelvin
I know you are a factional extremist
That's a contender for post of the year. Irony overload.
🤣
It's pretty straightforward. If he's handed a FPN he'll have to resign. I personally think the "new information coming to light" doesn't appear amount to much, and one of the DM's sources seems to change his own story every time he's asked.
What is this ridiculous thing she said?
I don't think she said anything ridiculous. For the record though, as we're all being fair minded about COVID restriction law breaking, she didn't say anything when Corbyn was accused of the same thing. To pretend that she's not being factional is pretty myopic; no?
Harsh fact is that Starmer has used the No10 parties to call for Boris to resign, and even though this doesn't compare in scale, if any fines are issued, he has to resign to avoid the obvious hypocrisy.
Whether Labour can then get a leader who will inspire the public more, I don't know.
Clearly he did start to turn towards the cost of living in the last few weeks. Wonder why?
You are being very generous, 10 days before the local elections there was a row in Cabinet when Lisa Nandy told Starmer to stop talking about partygate and focus on the cost of living crisis.
Something which he appears to have done in the final days. However whilst most people are fully aware of what Starmer thinks Johnson should do with regards to partygate they don't have a clue how Labour would resolve the cost of living crisis.
Come on Ernie where's the rest?
Sorry!
For the record though, as we’re all being fair minded about COVID restriction law breaking, she didn’t say anything when Corbyn was accused of the same thing. To pretend that she’s not being factional is pretty myopic; no?
What would have Corbyn resigned from?
And was DA on LBC being asked a question about it?
You are being very generous, 10 days before the local elections there was a row in Cabinet when Lisa Nandy told Starmer to stop talking about partygate and focus on the cost of living crisis
Yes I remember this and she went up in my estimation. She clearly figured out where the battle ground should be.
Sorry that should of course have said "Shadow Cabinet" - ironically I'm posting at the same time as trying to get ready for a club bike ride!
Daily Mail 1 : Labour 0
Daily Mail (proving they have near-ultimate power over the electorate): 1.
Democracy: 0.
Very sad state of affairs.
The sad thing is that there's been a few 'leaks' on this one, which again just shows there's parties within the party, i guess if they (and a few on here) get their wish of a fine being dished out and Starmer resigning, another labour suicide will really push for another 5 years of tory rule.
The sad thing is that there’s been a few ‘leaks’ on this one
https://twitter.com/avasantina/status/1521802204176343040?s=21
If Starmer was to be removed, he’d be forgotten by Christmas. But this false equivalence between an April ‘21 campaign trail eat up and what Johnson and his team did throughout the harshest periods of lockdown in ‘20 all serves one person. Well, two… Lord Rothermere and, as a means to that end, Johnson. Life long inherited non-dom tax status safe for Lord Rothermere, another few years on the throne for the man playing at being PM.
Who?
She doesn’t say who… it’s all anonymous sources…
…all just tittle tattle and incomplete or simply incorrect details, assumptions, framings and conclusions drawn from other people’s reports. That’s where political journalism is this days more generally though, isn’t it (excluding Private Eye). Political reporting is now showbiz reporting.
If Starmer was to be removed, he’d be forgotten by Christmas.
He's replaceable, if they get the right candidate, but you've still got to have the whole leadership election and the nightmare that'll bring before and after, at a time when the focus should be on something else.
I do think he’s pulled the pin on his own hand grenade.
The whole Rayner thing,either by accident looks bad and the work type argument isn’t the best ground.
Even if he’s innocent there’s enough doubt or facts to create doubt and it just looks simply like another one rule for us one for them that sort of negates his attack strategy on the tories.
IMHO He’s gonna get hoisted by his own petard.
He’s replaceable, if they get the right candidate, but you’ve still got to have the whole leadership election and the nightmare that’ll bring before and after, at a time when the focus should be on something else
Yep, trouble is they’re possibly in the same position as the tories, no real obvious successor the whole farf of leadership election may not play out well to the public.
and what should the focus be on,they have to be electable and they seem to be always bring a knife to gunfight.
Standing totally back I would just sooner they both got slapped off and removed for all sorts of reasons - even if Johnson is way ahead in the shit stakes. Johnson has made a mess of everything and Starmer hasn't pushed back enough.
Fresh start all round. I don't care who they've both got baggage.
Hard to disagree @rone. If I were Starmer I be saying something like "If I get a FPN of course I'll resign, but in the meantime let's talk about the cost of living crisis as it's more important" I can well imagine which bit of that the media would decide would be the more important topic.
Once again, multi billionaire off shore libertarian disaster capitalists are getting vocal about who most threatens their piles of money.
what a time to be alive
Well @nickc this is why my framing is always going to be neoliberalism itself.
And I know it's a difficult battle.
Have to agree Rone. But Johnson isn’t going, even if Starmer does. Someone else resigning will make no difference to him. He’ll keep pushing things into the long grass ‘till the public are bored of them, and then promise to get rid of them if they keep him as PM.
“Only I, Boris Johnson, can help the party/country move on from the mess created by Boris Johnson.”
Why don't we just cut out the middle man and accept that the country is ruled by the Daily Mail. Much simpler that way.
Not entirely. The DMGT haven’t bought the Telegraph and Sun yet. Give it another 10 to 15 years. The owner retaining non-dom status and a continued hands off (friendly media) approach by Conservative governments should help keep it affordable and within regulations.
Have to agree Rone. But Johnson isn’t going, even if Starmer does.
Yep. That scenario could happen I guess.
Why don’t we just cut out the middle man and accept that the country is ruled by the Daily Mail. Much simpler that way
But that's not really new is it?
Not at all. But it’s worth remembering, whether it’s Brown, Miliband, Corbyn, Starmer or whoever is next being done over. That this thread is now almost entirely following a Daily Mail story and angle is telling about the possible reach. Other media outlets, politicians, the police… all have to consider what Lord Rothermere wants and can do.
Maybe though this thread is just reacting to new information.
I first saw it on the BBC for instance.
I think it's possible to recognise both positions that the mail has an agenda etc - and there maybe further information that legitimately queries Starmer's position.
Personally I think there's been a lack of clarity from Starmer and co - with information that has now come to light that might mean rules have been broken due to the complexity at the time.
Still doesn't mean he's bad in the same way Johnson is bad.
But there is a similarity with what happened to Sunak which Starmer condemned.
It's complicated. And we will see.
This is the problem, all of Boris/Sunak/etc events were during full lockdown pre December 2020, they were at his place of residence and they had bring a bottle emails going round, the Durham by-election was April 2021 under Tier 2 conditions, and about 300 miles from his place of residence.
The change in COVID rules is massive as well, all the 'i couldn't visit my gran' or 'i missed my gran's funeral' while they partied is completely different in April/May 2021.
I first saw it on the BBC for instance.
Precisely.
As someone who listens to the BBC Today Programme most mornings, there is nearly always a Daily Mail story being talked about, and politicians being asked questions about that story.
But there is a similarity with what happened to Sunak which Starmer condemned.
That's fair. Apart from the timing. And what was happening. And the laws and rules at the time. I couldn't celebrate a birthday with family, friends or coworkers in that first 2020 lockdown, unless I lived with them. April 2021 was very different.
Makes me laugh, I'm not really pro Labour, and for sure I'm anti conservative.
Of all the crap Boris has done, prorouging parliamnet, Lying to the house pretty much any time he opens his mouth (sorry, not lying in the legal sense, just never telling the truth).
And the general pubilc are angry about him having a naughty drink?
If this is what brings him down, I'll take it, but jeeeeezzz...
Makes you wonder what a good PM (according to the great british pubilc) actually looks like.
Conserviatives are clearly going all out on the Starmer lockdown thing so they can claim a quid pro-quo on the whole thing.
It's nauseatingly petty and transparent. What's even more nauseatingly petty and transparent is that the voting public seem to be fundamentally stupid and will go along with it.
And the general pubilc are angry about him having a naughty drink?
No, they aren't. It's not about a cake, or a quick bottle of champagne. Read even the short released version of the preliminary Sue Gray report. Or better still Private Eye, to see just how much they were taking the piss during 2020, while severely restricting our behaviour by law. Probably best for the Boris Johnson thread though.
No, they aren’t. It’s a not about a cake, or a quick bottle of champagne. Read even the short released version of the Sue Gray report. Or better still Private Eye, to see just how much they were taking the piss during 2020, while restricting our behaviours by law. Probably best for the Boris Johnson thread though.
I think I edited my post as you were writing yours.
Sorry.
The best bit of damage limitation PR of all this was Conor Burns delivering the "ambushing by cake" line, when no one else had mentioned anything about cake. Genius bit of deflection, I have to give them that. No one in the Labour team could come up with that kind of effective news narrative and public chatter setting nonsense. In that regard they are very second rate to this team.
Anyway, I agree with you, the false equivalence is likely to be accepted by much of the public. I think this is as much because of how it is reported in "unbiased" media as it is because of how the Conservatives directly spin it in the friendly press. Doesn't help when Starmer now has so many enemies and detractors who'll happily join in reinforcing the false equivalence, and help Johnson and the Conservatives out of a hole.
Yea I agree, no apology needed 🙂
I'm not a huge fan of Starmer, or Labour in general, but I'd take them over the tories at the moment, in a heartbeat.
But if you were starmer, what could you actually do that he isn't already doing?
That the conservatives are still polling reasonably strongly suggests deeper issues with voter eduacation and apathy, something I imagine that the conservatives are quite pleased about, and dare I say, activley working to keep the populous dumb and angry, it's working quite well for them.
the voting public seem to be fundamentally stupid
Yep.
If you read the complexities of what constitutes a work gathering or even then going to another room or meeting later then I'm not surprised by all this.
Perhaps the law was never that clear?
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1523358074043604994?t=rvuqJa8t29NnhGWrU3Xd9Q&s=19
Dunno. This is very much at the limit of my understanding.
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1523217168334483456?t=8pkGB9v7DukH431DBWtZKg&s=19
What is missing from Maugham's tweet is included by a later poster:
Exceptions:
the gothering is reasonably necessary for the purposes of campaigning in an election or a referendum
I think that exception only applied to doorstep campaigning, ie meeting a member of public one to one outside their front door, so isn’t really relevant.
Radio4 Today Programme is all about “beergate” again this morning. No mention of new fines for a No10 Christmas party (the one Allegra Stratton resigned over, because she was caught on tape practising defending it if it was to become public). Job jobbed. Deflection complete.
Daily Mail 2 : Labour 0
Let's have the police investigation - if Starmer is clean then he comes out better off in my opinion.
Can't see the issue.
He's not turning up to some event or other today is he?
if Starmer is clean then he comes out better off in my opinion.
He could enhance his reputation even more by saying, right now, publicly, "if the police issue me with a fixed penalty notice I will resign".
I find it extremely bizarre that he appears incapable of saying that. It would undoubtedly gain him respect in the eyes of voters after endlessly calling for Johnson to resign. He really isn't very good at his job.
Edit: It would also make him appear very confident. The less confident he sounds the more the media are going to take an interest in the story, understandably.
Radio4 Today Programme is all about “beergate” again this morning.
The LOTO is the subject of a police investigation, having previously called for the PM to resign when he was being investigated. It's clearly a significant story, whether we like it or not.
As Ernie says, he could easily take the moral high ground...
A turning point. Not towards labour though. Amazing that it will tory newspapers who will get rid of Starmer and not his MPs.
https://twitter.com/trickyjabs/status/1523371118077296640?s=21&t=gdGMemL8rDKiQAwDBFDzBw
A turning point. Not towards labour though. Amazing that it will tory newspapers who will get rid of Starmer and not his MPs.
The obvious counter to the hay being that any gain Vs the huge losses seen in 2019 , represents a big turnaround in labours fortunes.
Coming out & saying he'd resign if he gets a fpn would be the right thing to do tho.
And i suspect he will
A turning point. Not towards labour though.
I am not sure its that clear cut although its a bit of a tricky issue for the centrists nuts.
The previous round of elections for these seats, under Corbyn, saw a massive increase in seats which makes it hard to get a further increase.
Really, the losses and gains went pretty much as expected, Labour were already in a strong position in terms of percentages in the seats going, Labour did well in the 2018 locals due to Brexit and the Tory meltdown of that year!
All i see from this result is that labour gained some, but the Lib Dems, who lost a lot of their vote share to the tories, have gained big, probably either through Lib Dems coming back naturally, or tories casting a protest vote.
It always astounds me that people think the disenchanted tories will suddenly vote labour, Lib Dems or greens are the natural vote for them, always has been, same with people moving from Labour, they won't suddenly vote Tory, they'll protest via the centrist party, it's how the Lib Dems got into a coalition!
The previous round of elections for these seats, under Corbyn, saw a massive increase in seats which makes it hard to get a further increase.
The remarkable increase in Green councillors suggests that there was more potential for Labour.
Anti-Tory voters who are dissatisfied with Labour would be naturally expected to gravitate towards the Greens, since the formation of the previous Tory/LibDem coalition government.
Likewise anti-Labour voters who are dissatisfied with the Tories are likely to gravitate towards the LibDems.
In general simplified terms of course.
I find it extremely bizarre
I agree. There are times to either put up or shut up, and this is one of those times. It should be an easy decision, that Starmer appears not to be confident enough to make the call just make him look weak.
Poor effort
Labour did well in the 2018 locals due to Brexit and the Tory meltdown of that year!
I distinctly remember on this forum remainers proudly announcing that they either hadn't voted Labour, or spoilt their ballot papers, to "teach Labour a lesson" for not being anti-brexit enough.
Edit: I particularly remember it because I thought at the time "but it's got bugger all to do with local elections".
It seems the green party also benefited from deranged labour campaigning. If this had a Tory badge on it no one would be surprised.
https://twitter.com/fisherandrew79/status/1523565924909187072?s=21&t=gdGMemL8rDKiQAwDBFDzBw
Ian Dunt this morning - agenda from the RW rags against Starmer.
Dunt 2017 - Corbyn and McDonnell making up media conspiracy against the left from the RW rags.
Also James o'Brien - months and months of Partygate coverage. Johnson law breaker ... On and on.
This morning . . Northern Ireland.
Centrist spin balls.
There are times to either put up or shut up, and this is one of those times.
He’s probably not allowed to. He’s still got work to do purging the last remaining lefties from the party. That’s much more important to the labour right than maintaining what little credibility he has left with the voters.
Honestly, can you stop hunting down Corbynites on twitter and posting their fake posters, this one, as well as the 'attack' on the Lib Dems had no link back to any Labour campaigning.
It's actually embarrassing seeing so many 'labour' voters linking or posting fake stuff that either the extreme right, or extreme left have created to try and throw dirt at 'Starmers' labour party.
I see Beer Starmer has cancelled an event today. Boris (Yeltsin) got food poisoning. Seems like food and drink causing some real problems here.
remainers proudly announcing that they either hadn’t voted Labour, or spoilt their ballot papers, to “teach Labour a lesson”
2018 was the first time I’d ever voted Labour in a local election. Labour took the council seat off of the Conservatives. This time around the winning margin was doubled. Onwards and upwards...
Wonder if Starmer will scribe any more articles for the Sun?
There are times to either put up or shut up, and this is one of those times.
I agree.
This won't lead to Johnson resigning though, whatever happens. He's only ever going with many hands pushing him out the door.
Wonder if Starmer will scribe any more articles for the Sun?
Arent the sun staying relatively quiet about it. They have rather a lot of baggage regarding a casual approach to lockdown rules from PE articles.
This won’t lead to Johnson resigning though, whatever happens.
I'm starting to believe that Johnson will declare Martial Law and establish himself at the head of a full on military dictatorship rather than leave number 10
Arent the sun staying relatively quiet about it.
They've had some full width web opinion pieces . Don't know about the paper itself.
I’m starting to believe that Johnson will declare Martial Law and establish himself at the head of a full on military dictatorship rather than leave number 10
It's more likely free balloons for every starving household for the Jubilee.
More labour voters think Starmer should resign than tory voters. Ouch!
Altogether now, 'They're all the same as each other'. Nice one Keir 🙄
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1523600637480824832?s=20&t=_A-6WP6UKQSIUbGmKdms2g
It’s more likely free balloons for every starving household for the Jubilee.
Free cake more likely.
Free cake more likely.
Lol
More labour voters think Starmer should resign than tory voters. Ouch!
Well that's hardly surprising is it? Surely even Starmer himself accepts that he should/would have to resign.
I'm not a huge Starmer fan but even I don't think he is so shameless that he wouldn't resign after receiving a fixed penalty notice, and saying for weeks that Johnson should do precisely that.
I still think likelihood of him getting a fine remains low & it seems inevitable he'll take that position and it would be the right thing to do, be very interesting to see what Johnson would say in that case
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1523615915643920384
Surely even Starmer himself accepts that he should/would have to resign.
You'd think so, but I bet there's quite a bit of panic among the labour right wing right now. A leadership election will derail their ongoing project to purge the party of the last remnants of the left. There's no obvious establishment successor to Starmer to do their dirty work. On the surface Streeting fits the bill but he's very inexperienced and a massive risk. Probably too much of a rabble rouser too and not boring enough. There's also the risk of a left wing resurgence, a small risk probably, but they haven't wiped out the left yet.
Well Labour would be truly screwed if Starmer didn't resign after being issued with a fixed penalty notice.
Labour's entire strategy has been built on attacking the hypocrisy and lack of integrity and honesty shown by Johnson, and very little else - certainly not providing an alternative vision.
The only way that they could possibly screw up more would be to challenge the fixed penalty notice.
it would be the right thing to do, be very interesting to see what Johnson would say in that case
The beauty for Johnson is that he wouldn't have to say anything, other than whispering "hoisted by your own petard fella" into his ear.