Forum menu
I wouldn’t lose sleep if he left but I just think it’s fair that if you win a leadership election you get to fight a G.E.
Why? Genuinely, if he can’t win the next general election (find me anyone who thinks he can … and I mean someone who genuinely believes he can, not just an MP or other Labour politician showing solidarity with their dull lack lustre leader) why be “fair” to him and miss a shot at pushing Johnson and co onto the opposition benches? Would the Conservatives let him drag on? Were they fair to IDS (who was, and still is, very popular with Conservative members) when it was clear that he couldn’t connect with the wider electorate?
We can't be sure til he's had a chance.
We can't be sure til he's had a chance & besides that I don't think a different leader will make a difference.
I can be sure, he has been the leader for more than long enough to know a) he is not good at it and won't be the best option if Labour actually want to win an election and b) his view of how the country should be changed for the better is seriously lacking.
Of course a different leader would make a difference, did you notice the difference between May and Johnson? however the issues still stands on who that would be given the piss poor list of potential candidates the Labour party has.
however the issues still stands on who that would be given the piss poor list of potential candidates the Labour party has
Besides that the best candidates would either a) not even get the support of the PLP or b) get monstered by the press.
I don't think it's deliberate but Starmer being shit right up to election time and then being fantastic* might just work.
*An amazing manifesto and some properly straight talking about the Tories.
Actually I'd take Starmer being shit right up to election time and Clive Lewis taking over with an amazing manifesto and...
But I don't think that is even a remote possibility.
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1453458765064376328?t=1qy-i_3-HSycAkMHRNRz1w&s=19
This is what Labour is up against despite 11 years of Tory Austerity. There are still seen as bad for the economy.
Because the majority of people don't have a ****ing clue about the economy so all they have to go on is what they are sold - balancing the books and all that BS the the Tories have done such a good job with over the years.
Good to see the they now see the Tories as the higher tax party though as that was surely the other way round previously wasn't it?
Thats exactly my point, the majority don't have a clue. It just shows what a moutain Labour have to climb. It's so easy to ridicule Labours spending by comparing it to personal cashflow, people understand it that way despite it being utter nonsense.
Most people will see a headline or a soundbite and assume this recent budget to be a good thing. Throw the peasants some scraps to keep them happy is the Tory way and it works. So depressing.
This is what Labour is up against despite 11 years of Tory Austerity. There are still seen as bad for the economy.
If you're interested, there's a whole genre of work and academic papers on a Bush Jr era remark made by a political journalist (Ron Suskind) based around what's know as "Reality-based community" . Long story short; it's a derisive term for folks on the left who react in a logical way to "facts". When folks on the right are saying things that are clearly not based in reality although over time, because they're in power their version of reality becomes the accepted norm, and opposition parties then react against these new "facts" rather than create their own. The quote is
The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' [...] 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do'.
We're seeing this now in UK politics and these polls show this, it's an absolute fact that national debt to GDP has grown since the 2010's and the Cameron govt takes power, and yet their "reality" of that is that they still calling themselves the party of fiscal responsibility when they haven't been that for a decade or more...and Labour react to this "facts" by having costed manifestos and cost cutting programmes and so on. when in reality Sunak just creates more newer reality The Express headline today is "Tax Cuts for Everyone" total made up horseshit...
see also Truthiness and Alternative facts
Until the left create a reality themselves that is more popular, that folks want to be part of, this will go on...this is how we live now.
Until the left create a reality themselves that is more popular, that folks want to be part of, this will go on…this is how we live now.
There was a bloke on the radio earlier. He's a single parent with a 19 year old pregnant daughter living in a dingy flat on UC who's just lost 20 quid a week, but it's ok because he works in construction and has seen his pay go up (thanks to brexit presumably although he didn't say that) so he can support her. He said the govt deserve 'credit where it's due' for all the money they've spent during the pandemic and it's very generous of them not to raise taxes to recoup that money.
People haven't just swallowed the national credit card rubbish, they don't even think it's the government's job to respond to the pandemic, let alone provide a functioning economy and safety net for the poor. We're in survival of the fittest territory, and if labour can't communicate an effective alternative to that then they should disband and get out of politics.
It's not just the politicians that "create a new reality" though, it requires voices notionally outside the party to be part of the conceit... that is... column writers and broadcast "journalists". How on earth do Labour deal with that?
How on earth do Labour deal with that?
They could probably start by not slagging off the journalists and news channels who are on their side. This is supposedly a mostly lef/soft-left/liberal place yet how many times do we see the likes of Owen Jones or Novara media dismissed and derided as sixth form trots?
Novara are worse than that.
Novara are worse than that.
I rest my case.
Because the majority of people don’t have a **** clue about the economy so all they have to go on is what they are sold – balancing the books and all that BS the the Tories have done such a good job with over the years.
If the majority don't have a clue about the economy then the task for the Tories shouldn't be any easier.
Fortunately for them the Tories were helped massive 11 years ago, with the balancing the books and all that BS, by the LibDems who sung from the same hymn sheet as the Tories and enthusiastically embraced austerity and deficit reduction.
When that was coupled with a Labour Party incapable of defending itself and mounting a counter attack (remember that as soon as Gordon Brown became PM he invited Thatcher to Downing Street to send the clear message that New Labour would remain thatcherite under his leadership) it is easy to understand why some voters were easily convinced.
Remember also that Labour fully supported the deficit being cleared and the arguments in favour of that. The only difference between Labour and the Tories and LibDems was that the Tories and LibDems argued it should be completed within the period of 5 years, Labour suggested doing it over 10 years. I suspect that some voters thought that if it was so important it should be done sooner rather than later.
....the issues still stands on who that would be given the piss poor list of potential candidates the Labour party has.
And that goes to the very root of the problem with the Labour Party, yet few seem to recognise its significance.
The Labour Party, despite the massive hemorrhaging of members under the present leadership, still remains one of the very largest political parties in Europe, indeed even globally it is one of the larger political parties.
It is still not that short of half a million members. Any political party that size should be spoilt for choice when it comes to potential leaders.
The fact that people seriously struggle to think of any potentially effective leader exposes how the party has sunk into a morass of ineptitude.
Labour's problems are both ideological and structural. One legacy of New Labour control freakery is a party that produces political clones and is of little threat to the leadership.
There was one short-lived crisis between 2015-19 when due to taking their eye off the ball they lost control and there was a grassroots rebellion. The Labour establishment mounted a massive unprecedented assault onto the new leadership until control was re-established.
The current leadership is now carrying out mopping up operations to guarantee that it never happens again and political monolith returns.
Expect to find talent and choice in a large vibrant democratic party. Don't expect to find it in a quasi-stalinist anti-democratic party which purges dissent and sucks the morale of anyone who attempts to make a difference.
This is supposedly a mostly lef/soft-left/liberal place
Supposedly.
the Tories and LibDems argued it should be completed within the period of 5 years, Labour suggested doing it over 10 years. I suspect that some voters thought that if it was so important it should be done sooner rather than later.
And how long did it take? That's the thing, the Tories don't even "succeed" on their own terms and are still trusted more with the economy. When they set up their own goalposts, and miss spectacularly, the public still trust them.
🤷🏻
And how long did it take?
I don't think they ever managed it? Covid gave them a handy excuse to continue fail.
And how long did it take? That’s the thing, the Tories don’t even “succeed” on their own terms and are still trusted more with the economy. When they set up their own goalposts, and miss spectacularly, the public still trust them.
Absolutely. That's because the Labour Party concedes the goal every time.
How on earth do Labour deal with that?
You can't. the media that isn't directly aligned with the right are in exactly the same place as opposition parties by trying to deal in facts, when parties like the Tories have expressly started to create their own.
Novara media dismissed and derided as sixth form trots?
In terms of reach, Novara are meaningless. I'm not suggesting that they're bad or they don't do useful things, but in terms of scale; no-one is reading what Novara has to say.
In terms of reach, Novara are meaningless.
Don't disagree. Maybe the labour party and it's supporters should be trying to extend that reach rather than slagging them off? I'm pretty sure a lot of tory MPs have no love of the Daily Heil, but do you see them slagging it off and calling their writers nazis and white supremacists?
I have never heard of Novara and never heard or read about anyone slagging them off.
As I don't live under a rock that suggests to me they are an irrelevance.
No of course not, but then the Mail is the UK third most popular paper, and can dictate the news agenda, and can make or break the career or life of just about anyone it wants...
Because the majority of people don’t have a **** clue about the economy so all they have to go on is what they are sold – balancing the books and all that BS the the Tories have done such a good job with over the years.
Absolutely and all we need is a few facts for Labour to bring on an economic attack on the Tories.
1) the Tories virtually never balance the books. Maybe once in 30 years. (I don't agree with balancing the books, it's a nonesense for which I've been debating years on here.) But Sunak was talking all this up at the conference.
So Labour have an opportunity here. They could've have made a move on the Tories never keeping their word to do this.
2) Tories: lie and change. Constantly on the economy. There is no plan. It's all over the shop. There are many open goals about the Economy.
3) We were almost in recession early 2020. Why on earth are we going to massively increase GDP now? Sunak is a dreamer. There is an opening up shock here as the slack is taken but this is not a booming country. We will head back into recession.
4) Brexit/Covid handling. On and on.
It really wouldn't be that hard to make some big attacks on Sunak. The Tories have started to understand it doesn't matter if you don't deliver - you just move on to the next vague idea.
Labour need to go back to the drawing board. They've got an easy line of attack. Start treating the electorate with intelligence, let them know what is possible and go for it.
I do feel Brits have been groomed to believe things can't possibly be any better. When the Tories fail, it's all about acceptance and excuses.
Enough of tinkering around this failed economic model the Tories have glued themselves too. It's doomed.
As I don’t live under a rock
You sure about that? Seeing as one of their editors is regularly on the news as a contributor, a panellist on Question Time and other current affairs debate programmes, and has a massive social media presence (to the point where her attending a wedding was trending on twitter), I think you haven't been paying much attention.
Aside from that though, seeing as the tories have an unassailable advantage in the print media and television, labour's only real option is social media. This is where the likes of Novara are most effective, but Starmer and his supporters seem hell-bent on destroying whatever impact that has rather than amplifying it.
Novara media do great stuff. Well put together - and hard to argue with (maybe some macroeconomic caveats.)
Their Covid journalism has been tireless.
Not sure why anyone on the left would push against them.
You sure about that? Seeing as one of their editors is regularly on the news as a contributor, a panellist on Question Time and other current affairs debate programmes, and has a massive social media presence (to the point where her attending a wedding was trending on twitter), I think you haven’t been paying much attention.
Might be the case for people who use Facebook/Twitter or watch QT, but it would be a mistake to believe that anyone who doesn't is ill informed.
I think the catchy name might provide a clue to the lack of awareness from the wider public who weren't taught an extinct language in grammar school.
Reminds me of Kilroy-Silk's Veritas which Kilroy-Silk felt would appeal to the masses. After all why would anyone not trust a political party whose name meant truth in Latin?
Not that I would compare Novara's hipster marxism with Veritas's right-wing populism of course.
and has a massive social media presence
In order to preserve what's left of my sanity, I'm getting rid of more and more of the social media that I look at, and I'm pretty much down to friends nd family on insta and this site now.
Getting there, 19 pts to go!
fieldwork was done mostly before paterson story too
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1457658417678532608
and b4 anyone points it out Greens tend to be a gateway drug to Labour, in the way BXP/UKIP is to the tories
https://twitter.com/p_surridge/status/1451492846817660931
and b4 anyone points it out Greens tend to be a gateway drug to Labour, in the way BXP/UKIP is to the tories
I think that's highly questionable given the surge in green polling is driven by the failure of Starmer to stick to his promises. Had it been a result of the Greens doing something amazing or being more visible I'd agree, but it's not is it. Or does the labour party arrogantly expect the greens to step aside as they did last time?
I think that’s highly questionable given the surge in green polling is driven by the failure of Starmer to stick to his promise
C'mon dazh admit that youd swallow your pride and vote big K if it meant getting the Tories out
In the same way those leftes disillusioned with corbyn voted for him last time
Had it been a result of the Greens doing something amazing or being more visible I’d agree, but it’s not is it
Maybe the COP26 farce got some people thinking?
C’mon dazh admit that youd swallow your pride and vote big K if it meant getting the Tories out
I think you massively underestimate just how much Starmer has alienated people like myself. He offers nothing but more of the same. If you want more evidence of that see his comments yesterday about HoL reform.
And then there's stuff like this to hammer home the point. Akehurst may be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but he and the likes of Wes 'up to the knees in blood' Streeting are the people at the vanguad of wherever Starmer is heading.
https://twitter.com/lukeakehurst/status/1457373443062648844?s=20
and b4 anyone points it out Greens tend to be a gateway drug to Labour, in the way BXP/UKIP is to the tories
So the level of support for Greens in that opinion poll shouldn't taken too seriously because it is likely to go to Labour in a general election?
Basically what you are saying is ignore the bits of the opinion poll that you don't like and just focus on the bits that you like.
What is interesting about that opinion poll isn't simply that it puts support for the Greens in double figures but it actually puts them ahead of the LibDems.
It's interesting because the likelihood of that happening in the next general election is almost nil.
But apart from that, yeah, it's great news for Labour. That's the second opinion poll since last January which gives them a 1% lead over the Tories.
C’mon dazh admit that youd swallow your pride and vote big K if it meant getting the Tories out
I suspect most politically engaged lefties would hold their nose and vote Starmer if they really had to. The bigger risk is that less politically engaged people don't vote at all.
Well, not entirely unpredictable. The Tories have seen their poll lead steadily eroded since about May
I suspect most politically engaged lefties would hold their nose and vote Starmer
It's the very opposite. The politically engaged can see that Starmer offers nothing different to the tories so conclude there's no point in voting for him. That's why the green vote has increased as it has.
and b4 anyone points it out Greens tend to be a gateway drug to Labour, in the way BXP/UKIP is to the tories
It shows that Labour won't win without the left vote.
It could also just be the COP26 is in the headlines day in and day out.
I suspect most politically engaged lefties would hold their nose and vote Starmer if they really had to
I wouldn't. There's no point. We'd just have exactly the same shit as we've got now. Starmer doesn't speak for anyone but wealthy neoliberals and corporate interests. So absolutely no different to the tories.
Yep me too.
"Competent" Neoliberals with no plan of attack is not a path to sorting stuff out - like the centre genuinely believe.
Tories will bin Johnson once he's deemed unpopular. That will sort their problems out.
It's basically lose or lose.
fieldwork was done mostly before paterson story too
I've just checked and there has been another 3 national opinion polls since that IpsosMORI poll.
They were from Opinium, Deltapoll, and YouGov.
All 3 of them did their fieldwork after the Paterson vote in parliament, and all three of them show a Tory lead.
Admitted a small Tory lead but obviously not smaller than 1%
There’s no point. We’d just have exactly the same shit as we’ve got now
While I am no fan of Starmer I don't believe if a Labour party were in power we would have exactly the same shit as now. Similar shit but different enough to be better even if very far from ideal.
It shows that Labour won’t win without the left vote.
This has always been true.
And it also won't win without people who aren't on the left.
As it happens, I think it has zero chance of getting a majority in parliament without working with the Green Party and others BEFORE the election. And that working together should start right now. COP26 is the perfect time to talk about shared aims... as regards Climate Change, anti-corruption, and an end to absolute power based on a minority share of the vote. Labour need to wake up. The Conservatives can bare to lose A LOT of support and voters and still romp home with a majority in parliament.
We’d just have exactly the same shit as we’ve got now
I doubt it.
The politically engaged can see that Starmer offers nothing different to the tories
It’s the very opposite. The politically engaged can see that Starmer offers nothing different to the tories so conclude there’s no point in voting for him. That’s why the green vote has increased as it has.
The green vote will lead to success for them in local elections and those people will switch to Labour if it means keeping the Tories out nationally.
RedfieldWilton out this evening I suspect Tories will be level with labour
Which is where things seem to be atm
Still I'd Starmer sticks to average trend that wouldn't be enough to unseat tories
In that case, it world be down to Johnsons tory blunders
https://twitter.com/DylanSpielman/status/1457690508973776902?t=6lYA10ioceLEWDKZwu9vAQ&s=19
The Y axis on that graph is "change since last election, which given how historically poorly labour did at the last election seems a really bad metric to measure success. Plus it has only risen recently from below average, so more to do with the tories failures than Starmers progress. It is an impressive bit of spin, but totally without merit.
Ot sure it's really spin
Makes clear they expect labour to fall back b4 GE
And we all know how badly they did last time and what base they're starting from.
They are winning back labour voters as tories lose them tho
Broken down here
https://twitter.com/DylanSpielman/status/1457679299981586434?t=c_kQtp11jv3P8OJlaUZ1Jg&s=19
I don’t believe if a Labour party were in power we would have exactly the same shit as now.
I doubt it.
So; please do feel free to explain why you believe as you do, then. I'm sure I've asked this question many times; so far, I haven't had a coherent answer. Funny, that...
I’m sure I’ve asked this question many times; so far, I haven’t had a coherent answer.
As my view is as much theory as yours no one can be proved right can they but let's try one. Would Labour have cut Universal Credit?
It is impossible to know what to expect from a Starmer government because for the last couple of years Labour have relied solely on people's blind faith.
Their entire strategy has been based on the claim "we are better than the Tories".
Which might well be the case but it doesn't necessarily guarantee that voters will give them a punt to find out whether it's true.
As far as I am aware there has not been one single opinion poll since Starmer became leader which has suggested a Labour majority. In the last 9 months the best Labour has managed is 2 opinion polls giving them a 1% lead over the Tories.
So there is little evidence that the blind faith strategy is having much success.
Edit : There is one thing which we can be reasonably sure about in the unlikely of a Labour government next general election.
The one thing that Starmer has been very busy doing is driving the left out of the party or positions of influence.
A Starmer government most certainly wouldn't be left-wing. Of that we can be 100% sure.
Their entire strategy has been based on the claim “we are better than the Tories”.
To be fair, "We're better than the other mob" has been pretty much the electoral strategy of every political party since the dawn of time.
Would Labour have cut Universal Credit?
Well, NeoLabour under Starmer? I have no idea. But I wouldn't put it past them. And that's the thing; I wouldn't trust them. And neither would millions of others. And therein lies the problem...
To be fair, “We’re better than the other mob” has been pretty much the electoral strategy of every political party since the dawn of time.
Thank you Nick - very sloppy of me not to be more precise.
Corrected version : Their entire strategy has been based on the claim “we are better nicer people than the Tories”.
"Get brexit done" wasn't claiming that the Tories were better people than Labour, it was claiming that their policy was better than Labour's. And it worked.
Even if Labour do pull something out of the hat , it genuinely won't be a moment of massive change like we could've had in 2017/2019.
There is little to get excited about, in our lifetimes I fear.
Just getting rid of the Tories is not enough. Starmer still runs with the establishment. And to me is a pretty dismal politician.
For sure though the Tories are looking very tired. A party in power too long just falls apart.
Would Labour have cut Universal Credit?
It's not one particular policy - it's the consensus on running the country for a particular economic model. Labour have very much painted a fiscally prudent model. That doesn't bode well for the less well off.
You're not going to lift the bottom part of society without big spend in the right direction. All Labour's signals are at odds with that.
As my view is as much theory as yours no one can be proved right can they but let’s try one. Would Labour have cut Universal Credit?
And actually, that's still not an answer, is it?
it genuinely won’t be a moment of massive change like we could’ve had in 2017/2019
Sadly that is true. I wish more voters felt the same way, but they didn't, and they won't.
without big spend in the right direction
That "big spend" will happen anyway. Who benefits is what really matters. And perhaps more voters are starting to see who exactly benefits with the Conservatives in power, as their cost of living and their tax payments go up, even while some rich people with the right connections have made a tidy profit out of the chaos of the past few years... with little checks on them doing the same over the next few years.
“Get brexit done” wasn’t claiming that the Tories were better people than Labour, it was claiming that their policy was better than Labour’s.
It seems to me that it was more about slogans rather than policy. Don't scrutinise what we're going to do, Brexit just means Brexit, and we'll do whatever you think that is. And despite it being "done" they look to be making sure the "escape the unreasonable EU line" is alive and pertinent at the next election. It's a good job for them that they don't need any votes on the island of Ireland.
A policy of we're nicer, better people might be all it takes if the sleaze 'tag' sticks. People haven't forgotten the last Tory govt that labelled was pinned on.
Most elections are "More of the same" or "Time for a change" we're not even half way through this parliament and already the shine is falling off Johnson faster and faster by the week. You said the Tories are ruthless about getting rid of underperformers. If this sort of behaviour carries on, it'll not be long before the bookies have published odds for his successor
Well the policy of we’re nicer better people hasn't worked up until now so there is no reason to assume that it will with sleaze issues. And not least because Labour don't have a sleaze free recent past.
I said a day or two ago that a self-serving Tory MP filling his boots doesn't boil my piss, in fact it makes it barely lukewarm. And there is every indication that is in line with the attitude of the wider public.
I'm not happy concerning the £100k in Paterson's bank account as reward for being a greedy ****, but greedy MP hardly comes as a surprise.
What really boiled my piss yesterday was my friend telling me how she can't get even a vague date for her hip replacement despite being in agony.
Those are the priorities that concern the wider public and what Labour should be focusing on.
Johnson misjudged the mood of the country over Paterson because whilst the sleazy greed of an individual might not have damaged the Tories the fact that they rallied round him instead of hanging him out to dry did.
we’re not even half way through this parliament and already the shine is falling off Johnson faster and faster by the week.
I find that confusing as I have no doubt that you accept the theory of midterm blues.
At this stage into a government the ruling party should be trailing the opposition. And all the more so if the opposition are vaguely likely to win next election. What has happened is the complete opposite, the opposition are constantly trailing the current ruling party.
You seem to share the same level of optimism as Kimbers. I find it all quite bizarre as it doesn't appear to be based anything other than wishful thinking.
nickc
Full MemberTo be fair, “We’re better than the other mob” has been pretty much the electoral strategy of every political party since the dawn of time.
Theresa May's message was "we're all ****ing horrible but we're strongly horrible." People liked that, "we'll ruin people's lives in an industrial manner" polls better than "we'll bumblingly and wellmeaningly try and make people's lives better"
Just getting rid of the Tories is not enough.
This. I remember when Cameron won in 2010 I joked to some mates that we could feel good about hating the government again instead of just feeling massively disappointed. Well it's the same now. Getting rid of Johnson might alleviate the burning hatred, but it will be replaced with depressing disappointment and frustration with Starmer. More importantly it will set back the goal of a radical reforming government for another few election cycles. If Starmer can show he's a stepping stone to something better he might have a chance, but for now all he offers is another 10-20 years of neo-liberal deadend economics and the poisonous culture war politics that goes with it.
That's what people are going through in the USA... and to be honest I'll take a bit of that now. A better government that isn't as good as I feel it should and could be will do me right now. I'd rather that than what we have now. Not so much for myself, but for all the people being screwed over that really can't afford what's happening to them. I'll take "better but not good enough" ASAP please, rather then the fantasy of....
More importantly it will set back the goal of a radical reforming government for another few election cycles.
Keeping Johnson and his successor in power is not the route to a "radical reforming government" further down the line, it is a route to the Conservatives embedding themselves in power for the rest of your life and mine... and maybe even that of our kids.
It will be next to impossible for Labour to form a government at the next election... but it might well be the best chance for a generation, as voting reforms will come... of the form that further swings the system in favour of the Tories. This is why Starmer really should move aside. He can't win the next election outright. And shows no sign of understanding the real significance of that. Labour need a new leader before the next election, and that leader needs to get their hands dirty working well beyond the boundaries of the party.
Theresa May’s message was “we’re all ****ing horrible but we’re strongly horrible.” People liked that,
I agree with the general premise but you have chosen a really bad example imo.
Why did Theresa May fail to win the 2017 general election, despite previously having a comfortable majority, if the people liked her message?
The lesson of 2017 was that policy trumped personality.
That’s what people are going through in the USA… and to be honest I’ll take a bit of that now.
What Biden is offering is massively more radical than Starmer though.
Also, all this centrist stuff about becoming more right wing to get elected isn't really going too well is it. A lot would be forgiven with some success. The strategy of try to be inoffensive and wait until people get sick of the Tories is pretty desperate stuff.
I’ll take “better but not good enough” ASAP please
That's not what you'll get though. You'll get 'pretty much the same but don't worry at least it's not the tories f***** you over'. When the car is being driven towards the cliff edge I want it to turn around rather than just change the driver.
A better government that isn’t as good as I feel it should and could be will do me right now. I’d rather that than what we have now.
You don't necessarily need a Labour government to achieve that.
The Tories could replace Johnson with someone with more integrity and competence and your minimal improvements would be achieved.
What Biden is offering is massively more radical than Starmer though.
It is. But...
- it's more radical than what he offered at the election
- that's still not enough, and too slow, for many who supported him
If Labour form the next election, I fully expect the same here.
But, again... with Starmer as leader I don't think Labour can make it to even be the largest party in parliament, never mind win a majority. He shouldn't be kept in place for the election, that would be disaster in the making for the UK... in my boring repetitive opinion. He needs to be replaced, and his successor needs to work with those outside Labour who also want Johnson gone.
The Tories could replace Johnson with someone with more integrity and competence and
yoursome minimal improvements would be achieved.
It is true that if the Conservative party changed its spots again while in power, that it might become a party that better governs the country than the current lot. Would it be the same, or go as far, as if we kicked the Conservatives out? Hell no. Would it offer "my" "minimal" improvements... (whatever you've decided those are)... no, but I am happy to accept that other Conservatives might well run the country better than the current government... but they are fewer than they ever were, and only Johnson losing will result in a shift in the party towards them.
Would it offer “my” “minimal” improvements… (whatever you’ve decided those are)
I have absolutely no idea what your minimal improvements would be.
But if what you want is simply something better than the present then it is worth pointing out that the Tories are more likely to replace their leader than Labour are likely to win the next general election.
So let's all hope that the Tories replace Johnson with someone better than rely on the Labour Party to do that.
They can offer what they like but the simple fact is that without the Scottish seats they're getting nothing. None of you seem to either acknowledge or grasp this fact. The system on both sides of the border is broken and the sooner Labour and its supporters admit that and start working with what we have then they are doomed to the sidelines.
I find it all quite bizarre as it doesn’t appear to be based anything other than wishful thinking.
TBH, it's more of a protective self-delusion right now
the sooner Labour and its supporters admit that and start working with what we have
Absolutely.
So let’s all hope that the Tories replace Johnson with someone better than rely on the Labour Party to do that.
Why would they replace him while he can clearly wallop Labour at the next election? Unless Labour get close to, or better still do, defeat him, he won’t be replaced. At least not with someone “better”. The Conservative party isn’t going to change unless it loses, or is likely to lose. Starmer hasn’t got what it takes to put them under that kind of pressure, and even if he is replaced Labour can’t do so without working beyond its own people. So even if you want a “better” Conservative party… you still need Starmer to be replaced, and for Labour to look outwards and towards other parties, and supporters of other parties. The Labour Party needs an engaging leader, and a collaborative approach. Anyone who wants the Conservative party to change tack also needs this to happen.
They can offer what they like but the simple fact is that without the Scottish seats they’re getting nothing. None of you seem to either acknowledge or grasp this fact.
Simply not true. How many seats the SNP take have no bearing at all on the likelihood of a future labour government f0or two reasons - take all the scottish seats out of the equation for the last few elections - its very rare if ever that would change who has a majority and secondly the SNP will support a labour government and never a tory one
The system on both sides of the border is broken
Not in Scotland its not - only westminster elections are FPTP
Why would they replace him while he can clearly wallop Labour at the next election?
Because it's likely that Johnson's popularity is now taking a bashing.
Once he becomes unpopular enough to damage the party they will replace him.
Why would they replace him while he can clearly wallop Labour at the next election? Unless Labour get close to, or better still do, defeat him, he won’t be replaced.
So basically what you are saying is that the way to move the Tory Party to the left, which presumably is what you want, is to move the Labour Party to the right.
It is an unconvincing theory not least because it is generally accepted that the Tories started shifting to the left under Theresa May as a direct reaction to Labour shifting significantly leftwards.
I'm not convinced all of Starmer's backers are determined to win the next election, they like an each way bet. They seem keener on re-engineering the party through spying and expelling to make it a slimmed down safe space for their approved list of candidates and the PLP just becomes slightly sometimes to the left of the Tories but containing no-one who will frighten the horses. It's just about moving the centre of gravity to the right and splitting and emasculating the constituency parties for good. So far, they seem to be doing quite well.
So basically what you are saying is that the way to move the Tory Party to the left, which presumably is what you want, is to move the Labour Party to the right.
I didn’t say either of those things. I said that the Conservative party will not make changes in how it governs or who governs in its name (nothing to do with left/right but about corruption, diplomacy, decision making, timing, commitment, planning, transparency, democracy and many other things that a competent government of the right could be) while Johnson looks to be a safe bet to win the next election for them. And he still is. As for Labour moving to the right of where it is now to put the Conservatives under pressure, I haven’t said that either. Starmer needs to go because he can not connect with the electorate, not because he hasn’t moved the party to the right enough. For me he’s not strong enough on many key areas that people would currently think of as “left”… if anything… but that’s not the problem. He is dull and unable to inspire voters, they will never warm to him.