Sir! Keir! Starmer!

Anyone noticed that whatever small ruckus anyone in the Labour party makes (Angela Rayner "Scum, Air pods" etc) it becomes the talking point.

Yet when the Tories destroy, absolve and spend without any account it's easier to brush under carpet?

It's obvious - I know, but until we alter the narrative from petty stupid things to what really matters (given Labour always have to - against the odds, sort out the social mess from the Tories) - I can't see a way out.

There's no way before the Pandemic that we would have predicted what the Tories would have been allowed to get away with.

Social media appears to have hugely contributed to the success of the Tory party.

On every level.

some of us just think she wouldn’t actually be liked by most voters so wouldn’t actually win an election for Labour

The evidence that being personally liked by voters translates into support on election day is weak.

After the heady days of cleggmania (a recognised phenomena which made the dictionary) many assumed that there would be a huge surge of support for the LibDems. There wasn't, it had no discernible effect at all. However much liked by the electorate their leader was voters weren't anymore convinced that the LibDems had anything worthwhile to offer.

For a reverse example of that take Margaret Thatcher. She was widely seen as an unpleasant person yet many were prepared to vote for her, despite not liking her, because they were convinced that what she was offering was necessary. Very few people visualised Thatcher as the sort of person they would enjoy a drink down the pub with.

The British electorate, despite imo often being wrong, is far more sophisticated than many on here give them credit for.

The evidence that being personally liked by voters translates into support on election day is weak.

I guess like all things though, as much as that's true, Johnson breaks that mold, I think people like him (or at least like the public persona he portrays), unlike Thatcher they could imagine having a pint with him down the local and lots of folks that voted for him are under no illusion that he's a bit shit at the job, but still preferred that over Corbyn's offer.

I think this pic by Cold War Steve really sums it up:

FFS man just answer the damn question!

Will you raise the minimum wage to £10 and reinstate the UC cut? Yes!

Where will the money come from? From normal govt finances and budgeting!

What does taxing fairly mean? Taxing the rich more!

So a wealth tax? Yes!

And stop f***** saying 'this is what the govt are doing'. You're not their spokesman, you're the bloody opposition! FFS how hard is it to just be straight with people and say what you would do?

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1452902387694309380?s=20

Social media appears to have hugely contributed to the success of the Tory party

See the recent research about how twitter amplifies right wing stories much more than left wing stories. Essentially it's much easier to scare/wind people up/create conflict with stories that play on people's fear of foreigners, commies, people who don't look like you, young people, dole scroungers, trans people etc than it is to be constructive. We're screwed.

Still going round in circles I see.

No chance. If this place is indicative of centrist liberal England then Rayner is a thick northern slag who is incapable of being pm. I mean just think, she might cause an international incident by shagging a foreign president or something because she can’t keep her legs shut.

I'm sure there are some of those "centrists" who think that way, but let's not forget the so called working classes who you appear to support heading off to vote for a Racist, homophobic, misogynistic party called the Conservative party eh?

In reality, Anyone seen to be be sharing the ideology of the previous Labour leadership will cause voting issues.

The thing with this mythical “centrist liberal England” is that it is a created catch 22 situation. the swing voters that have won elections for the past 40 years, have won elections for the past 40 years because politics has targeted them at the expense of the majority, and especially the disenfranchised voters who outnumber them by some margin.

If Labour want to win they need to stop pretending centrists are the only game in town, and start making inroads into the millions of people who feel rejected by the current political bubble.

Where to start with this one. Centrist liberal England isn't a myth, it is unfortunately the key to winning elections under first past the post. I though this was pretty obvious.

Anyone noticed that whatever small ruckus anyone in the Labour party makes (Angela Rayner “Scum, Air pods” etc) it becomes the talking point.

Yet when the Tories destroy, absolve and spend without any account it’s easier to brush under carpet?

Blimey, another "I thought this was obvious" comment here on who the media in this country politically support.

She was widely seen as an unpleasant person yet many were prepared to vote for her, despite not liking her, because they were convinced that what she was offering was necessary.

The British electorate, despite imo often being wrong, is far more sophisticated than many on here give them credit for.

They got duped by the media back then, just as they are getting duped now, You give the British electorate far too much credit.

Centrist liberal England isn’t a myth, it is unfortunately the key to winning elections under first past the post.

This explains the success of the current government how exactly?

it is unfortunately the key to winning elections under first past the post

No it isn't, it is where the political game is played by the Westminster bubble, not where it could be played if they wanted to appeal to a wider audience.

This was seen in the US elections recently, it wasn't swing voters who got rid of Trump, it was 10+ million who wouldn't normally vote. Now in that case they were motivated to get rid of Trump. But these people will come out to vote if they believe they have something to vote for.

Aiming policies at a few hundred thousand swing voters in swing seats is turning away millions of potential voters.

Instead, Labour should concentrate on left wing voters like myself, and ignore every UK election of the last 50 years.

Instead, Labour should concentrate on left wing voters like myself

Any self-respecting objective left wing voter wouldn't be touching the current labour party with a bargepole. See above, they can't even articulate a clear vision for raising low pay and preventing abject poverty which is their number one, principal reason for existing. They'll be saying improving the NHS isn't their job next.

Left wing policies are popular with the electorate.

El-bent Free Member

Still going round in circles I see.

Who are you talking about....... the Labour leadership?

Or are you confident that they marching to victory with unwavering determination?

Your intense dislike of anyone to the left of Tony Blair is well-established El-bent. But how about you now provide your critique of the current Labour leadership?

I don't know about anyone else but I personally would be fascinated on hearing your opinions of Keir Starmer and how he's doing as Labour Leader.

Don't be shy to talk about Starmer, this thread after all is dedicated to him.

And so few of Starmer's supporters appear to want to talk about him. They seem strangely more interested in talking about other people.

And so few of Starmer’s supporters appear to want to talk about him.

dazh voted for him… and is very happy to share his opinion of his time as leader… otherwise, who do you want to hear from?

Most people wisely stopped even opening this thread long ago. It just goes into every decreasing circular arguments that bore us all. Evil centrists. Unrealistic lefties. War on the left. They started it. Round and round…

ctk says he “has to” still be the leader going into the next election… not sure that makes them a “supporter” though. Actually, ctk… why does he “have to”?

And yes, policy by policy, left wing policies are popular, even in England, but when the voters are offered a full left wing platform for vote for, they invariably don’t in large enough numbers.

dazh voted for him… and is very happy to share his opinion of his time as leader… otherwise, who do you want to hear from?

I thought it was obvious?....... someone who actually supports Starmer.

Clearly dazh doesn't but I get every indication that El-bent does.

If you are not interested in people's opinions of Starmer why do you repeatedly click on a thread with the title : Sir! Keir! Starmer! ?

The evidence that being personally liked by voters translates into support on election day is weak.

Well liked more than the alternative leader rather than liked as such. Has been the case every time in the last 50 years.

I don't see that at all kerley, I think you might be confusing liking policies with liking an individual.

There is no evidence that voters thought Thatcher was a nicer person than Jim Callahan, or that they would prefer to go to the pub with John Major rather than Neil Kinnock, or that they David Cameron was a great person compared to Ed Miliband.

Policies was the primary deciding factor, and the ability of the individual, rather than whether they they liked them.

Personal appeal plays a part but I don't see evidence that it does to the extent some people seem to think it does.

Edit : I would be interested in your opinion concerning why cleggmania didn't translate into increase support for the LibDems.

Centrist liberal England isn’t a myth, it is unfortunately the key to winning elections under first past the post. I though this was pretty obvious.

Yes it is a myth. If it was correct the Lib dems would be pissing all over everyone.
They are the voters who can often swing the election but on their own they arent enough.
So if you chase them and piss all over the other voters then good luck since you wont see power.

The problem is many of the centrists are loonies who really believe they are the silent majority and hence everyone else should bow to their wishes and get the leftover scraps. This trick might work once or twice but soon fails.
Since the centrists have shown their utter disdain for anyone left of them then its a tricky sell nowadays.

was a nicer person

a great person

You are greatly over simplifying the idea of “liking” a political leader.

Well I'm a simple soul. I can't handle anything too complicated.

Yep, I didn't say nicer or great, I said liked (or preferred maybe a better word)

Blair - preferred
Blair - preferred again
Brown - not preferred, Cameron wins
Miliband - we know how that went
Corbyn - we really know how that went as probably the most disliked for a long time and even lost to May who was not setting a high bar
Starmer, not a chance against Johnson

See how it goes now?

Will Murdoch choose Starmer, or stick with Boris/the tories?

Because that's how it really goes.

I said liked (or preferred maybe a better word)

Blair – preferred
Blair – preferred again
Brown – not preferred,

Preferred is a completely different word to liked. It is spelt differently and has a different meaning.

I will repeat my claim :

The evidence that being personally liked by voters translates into support on election day is weak.

During the heady days of cleggmania Nick Clegg was well liked by voters, apparently more than any other party leader. That did not translate into more support for the LibDems than the other parties.

He was not preferred by voters.

However much liked by the electorate their leader was voters weren’t anymore convinced that the LibDems had anything worthwhile to offer.

Edit : How typical that a political discussion among a bunch of middle-class liberals should be reduced to semantics - and then they wonder why they struggle in elections!

People can like someone who they don't think is a "nicer person". In fact, some people can like a political leader partly because they are not "nice". For some people “nice” is a sign of weakness in a leader, they want someone who’ll do and say things that they consider far from “nice”.

As for the Clegg stuff... maintaining support for any third party as election day draws in is always hard with FPTP... even if you like the leader, support the policies, and favour your local parliamentary candidate... if you're in a Tory/Labour marginal, the reality of the (high) risk of wasting your vote becomes clear when it comes to putting a cross in one box. Charles Kennedy was probably more widely liked then Clegg ever was, and for a more sustained period of time, but faced much the same issues when it came to electing MPs.

Farrage is an even better example of someone liked as party leader, but who failed when it came to getting MPs elected. He would have probably been far more successful if he was Conservative Party leader. FPTP protects our two biggest parties from challenger parties and MPs.

FPTP protects our two biggest parties from challenger parties and MPs politicians.

Need to remember that Farrage was never even an MP!

Anyway, today is all about getting the possible next PM ready to defeat Starmer or his successor. The Sunak PR assault will be huge today. Will Starmer or Reeves even be noticed?

During the heady days of cleggmania Nick Clegg was well liked by voters, apparently more than any other party leader. That did not translate into more support for the LibDems than the other parties.

Cleggmania was a flash in the pan after a leader debate in 2010 that lasted a few weeks at best, and given that he was debating with Call-me-Dave and Gordon (is he a robot) Brown that's not a massively high bar. And the Lib-Dems got into government in the subsequent election and increased their vote share, although they lost seats.  Given that 3rd parties never do well in a FPTP system that's a pretty good result.

How typical that a political discussion among a bunch of middle-class liberals should be reduced to semantics

Says the communist, literally the home for petty political divisions...

Anyway, today is all about getting the next PM ready to defeat Starmer or his successor.

There's not a chance in hell that the tories will vote for a p*** as leader. Sorry for the blunt language, but that's how your average ignorant and bigoted tory member will see it. I could be wrong, but I just think it's a red line for most tories. In many ways I hope he is as it could be the only way for labour to win back the working class racist vote.

Says the communist

Communist? Have I missed something?

I could be wrong

I think you may well be.

Anyway, Starmer and Reeves... will they make any impact today?

will they make any impact today?

Think that's a rhetorical question isn't it? How can you make an impact when you're not offering anything different?

 In many ways I hope he is as it could be the only way for labour to win back the working class racist vote.

Well, given that the Tories have had 2 women PMs and the current Home Sec, the Sec of Health and the CoE are all British Asian, and Labour has only managed to promote a woman as interim leader of the party. Perhaps you're right and  Labour should be the natural home for working class racists?

Communist? Have I missed something?

Presumably you have. Although as someone who constantly pushes for political self-criticism and tolerance of different political stances in this middle-class liberal echo chamber you could be forgiven for being unaware of my commie credentials.

Nick claims to have a long held dislike for commies going back to his early days in the Labour Party.

Although ironically he appears to have much sympathy for the hard-right which is currently in control of the Labour Party and is using Stalinist tactics of purges, expulsions, and political intolerance, to consolidate its grip on the party.

The "Croydon Communist" label was something which was regularly thrown at me by the likes of binners and BnD. They don't seem to bother anymore as presumably they now see it as a bit lame and pointless. I can only assume that I hit a raw nerve with Nick with my 'middle-class liberals talking semantics' comment

. I can only assume that I hit a raw nerve with Nick with my ‘middle-class liberals talking semantics’ comment

You assume wrongly, it was meant as a light hearted jest, nothing you say winds me up Ernie.

If Fonzie Sunak presents an apparently expansionist budget, Starmer and Reeves will be arguing for austerity.

I'm glad you said "apparently"... that's exactly the spin I expect to see...

There will also be well designed elephant traps for Starmer and Reeves... I think they'll expect that and will be too scared/cowardly to respond with anything concrete 'till later in the week, after much analysis. At which point they'll be ignored, as will anyone else that's peeled back the boosterism sheen to show that the numbers really mean a new round of full on austerity ahead of us, and even harder times for the less well off.

it was meant as a light hearted jest, nothing you say winds me up Ernie.

Of course it was a light-hearted jest Nick. But Daz didn't seem to understand it which is why I felt it was probably necessary to explain.

And quite frankly I can't imagine why anyone would be wound up by what I post. It might occasionally hit a raw nerve though 😉

I’m glad you said “apparently”… that’s exactly the spin I expect to see…

Starmer has been outmanoeuvred?

By a Boris Johnson led government?

I'm not as politically minded as many on this thread but I'm really dissapointed in Starmer's lack of opposition and lack of alternatives so far. Even to the point of thinking he doesn't actually want to be elected PM and inherit this $hitstorm the Tories have created for us. In which case we really are doomed to more of the same $hit.

Presumably you have.

Oh I was well aware of your commie credentials. My comment was more of a question as to whether that was actually true. You seem more of a classical state socialist to me, which often gets conflated with communist thanks to Stalin and his postwar successors. I guess I'm still clinging on to the 19th century version of what a communist is 🙂.

The “Croydon Communist” label was something which was regularly thrown at me by the likes of binners and BnD.

Well binners thinks anyone to the left of Nick Clegg is a socialist worker so that's hardly a surprise. Won't be long til he's slagging off Starmer for being too left wing, all he needs is a catchy nickname like magic grandad. (weird how no one has come up with one yet!)

Armrest? That seemed to upset some people.

Perhaps you’re right and Labour should be the natural home for working class racists?

Some of the most racist people I've ever encountered were diehard labour voters. Most of my extended family in fact. I've always thought the main reason labour struggle to win elections is the near impossible task of forging a coalition between middle class liberal lefties and the reactionary racist working class. As unappetising as it may be to bed-wetting liberals as ourselves, Sunak offers the opportunity to do that again.

Although ironically he appears to have much sympathy for the hard-right which is currently in control of the Labour Party and is using Stalinist tactics of purges, expulsions, and political intolerance, to consolidate its grip on the party.

Lol!

but I’m really dissapointed in Starmer’s lack of opposition

I don't think anyone thinks he's doing a decent job.

the near impossible task of forging a coalition between middle class liberal lefties and the reactionary racist working class

I don't think the "working classes" are reactionary any more. Unionism as a uniting political force has been defeated in this country (unless it serves some other purpose like keeping wages low, or is right wing based like the police union, in which cases they're allowed to continue). If you want to get into the murky water of Sociology studies they refer to some as Retreatist or Rebellious, but those refer to cultural goal seeking  to a conformist ideal.

Labour has always been an uneasy alliance right from the get go.

Strain Theory

I’ve always thought the main reason labour struggle to win elections is the near impossible task of forging a coalition between middle class liberal lefties and the reactionary racist working class

The place for middle class liberal lefties is the green party and the place for racist working class is UKIP or whatever they are called. Labour will be left with?

I don’t think the “working classes” are reactionary any more.

The 2019 election and brexit referendum suggest the opposite.

Well, Starmer finally managed to make the headlines.

Bit of a misunderstanding of social class going on here. Whether conscious of it or not, the working class is composed of people who sell their labour power, which is the majority of the population. The opposing class is those who own and/or control the means of production. Notions of 'middle class' etc are based on notions of status and moral worth largely derived from the creation of the RG scale of occupations by the eugenicist THC Stevenson in the very early C20th. It was misconceived then as it is now.

Think that’s a rhetorical question isn’t it?

Radio4 broadcast Sunak's whole speech, and then stopped coverage as soon as Reeves stood up. Perhaps they'll be a 30 second clip later... Meanwhile, this is Sunak PR day... keep everything else out of the way...

Well, Starmer finally managed to make the headlines.

I expect an awful lot of MPs will be testing positive this week and next.

interesting that after last week, the govt benches are all masked

Starmer's paid the price for not being convivial and fraternal.

They're playing a clip now... Reeves going on... tax cuts for banks, internal flights, and bubbly. Tax deductions for large companies. Higher tax burden on working people...

And.. end of short clip... to talk to... Wes Streeting. FFS. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Reeves' version of the Magic Money Tree 'How will we pay for all this?' What did I say?

I don’t think anyone thinks he’s doing a decent job.

Loads of people do.

For a start the overwhelming majority of Labour MPs.

We know from recent history that if the Parliamentary Labour Party is dissatisfied with the leadership provided by its leader they will make their opinions heard.

In fact if they are dissatisfied with their leader they do a better job in attacking them than they do attacking the Tories.

Starmer's position is quite secure because Labour MPs are sufficiently happy with how he is getting on with the job.

The “Croydon Communist” label was something which was regularly thrown at me by the likes of binners and BnD.

It was 2016 when I did this comrade. i reckon thats an iPhone 6s so this is the proper olden days

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/KvKjku ]Ernie-iphone[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/14162682@N00/ ]bin lid[/url], on Flickr

😀

John McDonnell on LBC now getting down to the real issues in response to the budget noise. Worth a listen.

and then stopped coverage as soon as Reeves stood up.

Small mercies. Rachel Reeves is even more boring, uninteresting and mediocre than Starmer. It's pretty hilarious that many on the right see her as the next great Blairite hope (if we ignore the comedy Wes Streeting option). You can almost guarantee though that the next leadership election will be between her, Rayner and possibly Nandy.

You can almost guarantee though that the next leadership election will be between her, Rayner and possibly Nandy.

What a depressing prospect that is, so probably the case.

The one obvious option doesn't seem to be interested in involving himself in the basket case that is the Westminster set up.

Daz - did you see his piccie with one of my prints last week at the constituency fundraiser, comrade? He's signed it and we auctioned it off for charidee. It was 12 months to the day of the whole 'King of the North' thing with Boris where a labour party politician actually offered what looked like some genuine opposition to the government. Literally one for the scrapbook. No sign of it happening again any time soon

[img] [/img]

Get flaming, comrades 😀

Caption competition?

Binners... stop propping up the neo liberal establishment!

[ nice work there ... my eye is drawn straight to the Lowry though ]

I've had an order for a print (in return for another large charity donation) from the leader of one of the larger unions*

* not Len 🤣

did you see his piccie with one of my prints last week at the constituency fundraiser,

Of course I did. Whilst I think Burnham would do better than he did in 2015 I think staying out of national politics is probably the right decision as the cult of personality he's trying to develop in the north west (not the whole north) is a little cringeworthy, not to mention almost impossible to replicate anywhere else. The main thing it does for me is remind me how people in Manchester and Liverpool delude themselves that they're not in the midlands 😄.

And besides, labour need a female leader, whoever it is.

And besides, labour need a female leader

I think that would be a very good move.

whoever it is.

You've lost me there.

It was 2016 when I did this comrade. i reckon thats an iPhone 6s so this is the proper olden days

And yet you still know how make me feel special.

You’ve lost me there.

Actually I should correct myself. If not Rayner then the only other candidate who I can think could win an election is Miliband. Assuming of course he can keep the idiots who advised him in 2010 at arms length and continues on his current focus and approach. There's a lot of baggage to get rid of though from his history, just like Burnham.

just like Burnham.

If he can sort out the buses and trams prices like London, and builds the cycle lanes and continues to make LTN, then I'll carry on voting for him TBH

A post I can agree with 100% Dazh. If Miliband V1 had never been leader, Miliband V2 would be the obvious choice to replace Starmer ASAP. He may still be one of the best options.

Perhaps Rayner as leader, Miliband as shadow chancellor. They both need to listen to Lewis on political reform though. Lammy as Home Secretary. Starmer can lick his wounds and ponder on what went wrong with a spell as shadow justice secretary. That all (or something else) needs to happen in the next 18 months though. Waiting ‘till after the next election will result in 13+ years in opposition. The Tories know how do get Johnson a win at the next election against Starmer, and by the following election they’ll be ready to flip leaders just after the honeymoon period for Starmer’s successor is over. The leadership MUST be changed before THIS coming election.

Sorry for the blunt language

Yuk Daz, dont use it next time and there'll be no need to apologise.

Milliband? Someone remind me what the definition of madness is?

Someone remind me what the definition of madness is?

Sticking with something that isn’t working and you know full well isn’t going to work?

Miliband would find it very hard, because of how useless he was a leader before. I couldn’t vote for Labour under him back then for example. But he’s impressed in the shadow cabinet this time around though.

Bury North Labour -is that what the Westminsterites want to do?

Yuk Daz, dont use it next time and there’ll be no need to apologise.

The choice of language was deliberate to demonstrate what I think of the views of the average tory member. I have no doubt they really think that so have no problem spelling it out.

Centrist liberal England isn’t a myth, it is unfortunately the key to winning elections under first past the post.

This explains the success of the current government how exactly?

The opposition party installing a leader that can be ripped apart by right wing media and concerted campaigns through social media perhaps? Why would soft tories who are needed to swing the vote, vote for Labour?

No it isn’t, it is where the political game is played by the Westminster bubble, not where it could be played if they wanted to appeal to a wider audience.

The party's who aren't tory already appeal to a wider audience, and get a bigger share of the vote, in terms of actual numbers, but that's not how this works currently.

Your intense dislike of anyone to the left of Tony Blair is well-established El-bent.

That's quite an assumption, I just recognise what its going to take to wrestle political power away from the tories, and simply saying socialism is the answer is not going to work currently, as demonstrated to varying degrees from 2015-2019. I know some haven't learnt that lesson because its their core belief system, And I know people don't like to think, and certainly don't like their beliefs challenged, but if those people can't even moderately adapt to current circumstance, then eject them over the side.

But how about you now provide your critique of the current Labour leadership?

I already have, many, many, pages back thanks. I'm sure you're anal enough to find it.

Left wing policies are popular with the electorate.

Well stone the crows, a news flash.

That's not a good reason to use it.

That’s not a good reason to use it.

Hang on so because I think tory members have no problem using the word 'p***' I'm not allowed to say so? I'm using it in a non-offensive context to illustrate the bigotry of people who do use it in that way.

Anyway, back to Starmer. Apparently he's gutted he tested positive or covid. Seems like Miliband and - I hate to say - Reeves seemed to do perfectly well in his place. If I were him I'd be gutted too 😄.

El-bent ego unbounded

If you can't think of another way to get that point across then fair enough Daz. If you can then do.

If I heard someone using that word in public I'd say something. Unless she was bigger than me 😂

But how about you now provide your critique of the current Labour leadership?

I already have, many, many, pages back thanks. I’m sure you’re anal enough to find it.

If repeating yourself presents a problem for you El-bent why do come on here constantly repeating the same unchanging rhetoric?

Or do feel that this is the first time that you have shared your opinions on what you perceive to be the "Labour left" ?

And many, many, many pages back sounds like a long time ago, isn't politics constantly changing and developing?

I am sure that your opinions of Starmer's detractors are now well understood, how about you express your views on how well Starmer is leading the Labour Party?

How has he been doing since "many many many pages ago"?

If it helps I will remind you of some of the announcements Starmer has made in the last two or three months. Firstly Geronimo the Alpaca should be destroyed, the next James Bond should be a woman, and more recently, an MP getting stabbed to death is a tragedy.

I think that's it?

If I heard someone using that word in public I’d say something.

As always, context is everything. Do you get upset when black men use the word n*****? Anyway we're way off topic.

I think that’s it?

Didn't he announce some stuff at conference? I'm trying hard to remember but honestly I'm struggling without a google search. I do however remember him being made to look like an idiot on the subject of a wealth tax by a Sky news reporter. I also remember him blanking a young party activist asking him about the green new deal. Most recently I saw him smirking when asked about giving lefties 'a good kicking' not long after an MP was murdered. There have been a few memorable moments, but none of them having a go at the tories.

Lol Daz comparing yourself to black people reclaiming racist language LOL. Come on man a white person using racist terms to give their posts on a cycling forum a bit more oomph is lame as ****.

FFS no I’m not comparing myself to black men I’m pointing out that when using a word, especially offensive ones, context and meaning are the only things that matter.

Sticking with something that isn’t working and you know full well isn’t going to work?

Good point @kelvin. I wouldn't lose sleep if he left but I just think it's fair that if you win a leadership election you get to fight a G.E.

A stronger and more visible front bench team around Starmer including Milliband would be a good thing.

....is lame as ****.

So is the claim that all temperature Daz washes whitest ever in hot, warm and cool water.

Have a word with yourself Daz.