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So are you voting at all? If you are who for?
Yes. None of your business.
Or do you just spoil the ballot paper by writing “f*** off Tory scum and your establishment stooges in the labour party!”
Or do you just stay at home/ go to some protest or other/ go to the pub / ride your bike
What? Have you had too much caffeine today or something?
I can see how you like her, Binners.
Because she's funny?
Oh, is she? I hadn't noticed. We obviously have different senses of humour. But then, you like what Greggs call 'food', so...
Yes.
Happy to hear that
None of your business.
Not sure that is the message you are sending on a thread on SKS and labour politics, if you secretly vote conservative to stick it to the red Tory establishment stooges it's not a problem you know.
Well as I pointed out in a debate with Ernielynch the European left shouldn't be written off yet. The SPD is the single biggest party in Germany which is quite a revival. A Rot, Rot, Grüne coalition won't work but there's a slightly better than 50/50 chance the SPD will be in the ruling coalition. Spain socialist, Germany left of center. There's hope for Labour yet if they can get any kind of act together.
Starmer should go, that much is clear. He's gone back on the commitments he made in double quick time and revealed himself as an old-school Tory (as opposed to the new-school populist Tories in power). That won't win him or Labour an election, he needs to convince the people that he has policies they would benefit from and is failing because he won't commit to them.
Not sure that is the message you are sending on a thread on SKS and labour politics, if you secretly vote conservative to stick it to the red Tory establishment stooges it’s not a problem you know.
Seriously, lay off the caffeine or whatever it is that's making you think up such nonsense.
Hyde is the daughter of Sir Alastair Edgcumbe James Dudley-Williams, 2nd Baronet, and his wife, the former Diana Elizabeth Jane Duncan. Through her father, she is the granddaughter of aviation pioneer and Conservative politician Sir Rolf Dudley-Williams, 1st Baronet. She attended Downe House School, near Newbury in Berkshire, and read English at Christ Church, Oxford.
The Guardian employing privately educated Oxbridge journalists, what a surprise!
Seriously, lay off the caffeine or whatever it is that’s making you think up such nonsense.
I'm not the one who won't vote labour, won't say who he is voting for, yet still incessantly posts on a politics thread about SKS
Is it?
Why do I have to say who I'm voting for? I thought it was a 'secret' ballot?
Definitely a shy Tory then
Lol! Ok then. You carry on believing that. Like all the other shite you believe. That is, after all, your choice. The only 'shy tories' are people like you. Blairites who think neoliberalism is the way forward. Christ on a bike. 😀
Bridges, would you prefer a Tory government or a Labour one run by the likes of SKS? Not voting for Labour, depending on constituency, is giving the Tories your vote.
Why do I have to say who I’m voting for? I thought it was a ‘secret’ ballot?
It is secret if you want it to be. I am happy to break the secret and tell you I vote Green. They are closer to what I want/stand for than Labour (even more so with Starmer "leading")
IT is just an interesting topic, who gets the disillusioned Labour voters vote as there is not much choice from where I am sitting.
I'd take an SKS led governemnt over a Tory one but I'll vote Lib Dem or Plaid if ever I get a vote.
class warrior whinging about Marina Hyde?
surely we can do better than that
her article is pretty good summary of why the conference has been a shambles, if it had been a quiet week in the news labour would be in trouble right now
her comments were generally bang on
Some legend in his own lunchtime resigned yesterday afternoon from the shadow cabinet. At a Tribune rally last night, this Andy McDonald was lionised alongside John McDonnell for quitting over the “point of principle” that the minimum wage should be £15. Less than 12 months ago, McDonnell called for Covid “heroes” to be rewarded by raising the minimum wage to £10.
Labour has spent whatever this conference costs to stage looking like a bunch of amateurs. Starmer’s entire Marr interview, Reeves spectacularly failing the pap test, Rayner, Thornberry suggesting Rayner was pissed, the Corbyn brothers giving it the big I am: these are the viral horrors that seep into the general consciousness while real life is happening elsewhere
At the heart of it all, Keir Starmer remains the sort of person things happen to – a reactor to events rather than someone who might have the potential to shape them. He feels like the inveterate advocate who waits for others to be judge and jury. Labour appears to have spent the past 18 months hoping to look like the least-worst option in the wake of an appallingly mismanaged pandemic. The polls thought differently. The party now appears to be waiting for a winter of discontent to look like the least-worst option.
also
clarkpm4242
Free Member
Not forgetting Starmer and half the shadow cabinet alienating female supporters with their ‘cervix’ mumblings.I know of many women that have worked hard for the party over the years, canvasing door to door that will not support the current stance on ‘identity politics’ nor vote Labour in an election.
It is a gift to the Tories.
worth pointing out that labour getting drawn into the identity politics trap is being driven by owen jones & many on the far left as well as the centrists, personally I think its a bigger issue that people realise & the tories wont hesitate to use it against labour
they really need to get a clear stance on it
Less than 12 months ago, McDonnell called for Covid “heroes” to be rewarded by raising the minimum wage to £10.
Pretty sure he said at least £10.
the identity politics trap is being driven by owen jones & many on the far left as well as the centrists
I think getting drawn into his cervix comments was really bloody dumb. He's going to have that thrown at him over and over again.
yep, it was "at least £10 an hour"
which is why I was surprised to see the upset that Starmer wasnt going to back a £15 one
I think getting drawn into his cervix comments was really bloody dumb. He’s going to have that thrown at him over and over again.
He seemed surprised, for a second I though it was about hysterctomies!
Labour need an answer to the question, its going to be a tiny issue used to hammer them otherwise, its exactluy the sort of culture war issue the Tories would love to focus on
Bridges, would you prefer a Tory government or a Labour one run by the likes of SKS?
Neither, thanks.
class warrior whinging about Marina Hyde?
Erm, there wasn't actually any 'whinging', other than in your imagination. As for her actual piece; it's basic cut n paste formulaic unimaginative dross, without any real insight or nuance. There are far better, more intelligent commentators I'd pay attention to first.
But then; I don't really read the Guardian much. It's become a bit of a tabloid; Hyde's position there only confirms that.
Erm, there wasn’t actually any ‘whinging’,
But then; I don’t really read the Guardian much. It’s become a bit of a tabloid; Hyde’s position there only confirms that
Definitely a shy Tory then
Got to love the irony of this comment, coming from someone who claimed to want:
".... that the first thing Kier Starmer is going to do is have a night of the long knives to clear out every last one of the utterly useless Corbynites"
Just to be clear; the original Night of the Long Knives was an event where Hitlers Brownshirts murdered many Left wing politicians and activists, in order to consolidate power. So; Binners espouses and endorses fascist actions. It's right there in black and white, people.
Still no actual 'whinging', as you imagine, Kimbers. Simply statement of fact I'm afraid.
I'm definitely not inviting you to my next book burning if you're going to be like that about it.
which is why I was surprised to see the upset that Starmer wasnt going to back a £15 one
kimbers
Full Memberwhich is why I was surprised to see the upset that Starmer wasnt going to back a £15 one
The point is that Starmer's already backed a £15 one. He's just done such a complete u-turn that he seems to have forgotten he ever had a different opinion.
So not only is his shadow cabinet now being ordered to oppose something he previously said he supported, which is difficult enough; people are asking, what are his commitments worth? The minimum wage increase has been rowed back so much now that it's not an increase at all, as I mentioned earlier he's demanding 7p more than the Tories are on track to deliver already. And that's his idea of ambitious policy setting.
I’m definitely not inviting you to my next book burning if you’re going to be like that about it.
Because Nazism is something to joke about, of course. Classy.
Ah, Marina Hyde. Uses a lot of words; doesn’t really say very much.
Hyde is the daughter of Sir Alastair Edgcumbe James Dudley-Williams, 2nd Baronet, and his wife, the former Diana Elizabeth Jane Duncan. Through her father, she is the granddaughter of aviation pioneer and Conservative politician Sir Rolf Dudley-Williams, 1st Baronet. She attended Downe House School, near Newbury in Berkshire, and read English at Christ Church, Oxford.
I can see how you like her, Binners.
That really is pathetic. You slag off MH's writing, which gets me interested, but in your follow up you don't actually come up with any evidence or support for your statement, you just quote some crap about how hideously privileged and rich she is...
That comes across really bitter and chippy.
I think MH is awesome, but am happy to be re-educated by someone more literate and clued up than me ( most people TBH)
Perhaps you could try and educate me
Perhaps you could try and educate me
You will be lucky, mostly you will get snide comments about how you are wrong and not left enough and basically a Tory.
The point is that Starmer’s already backed a £15 one.
Where? Backing the call for higher wages for one set of workers, working for a huge company that can easily pay more, but refuses to, and has a long history of union busting to prevent collective bargaining and keep wages low, is not the same as calling for the statutory minimum wage be set at the same level.
Hyde's background is important. She is privileged establishment to her core & everything she writes must be read with that in mind. She is funny though.
More generally privately educated people are massively over represented in media and journalism.
Because Nazism is something to joke about, of course. Classy.
Of course it bloody is! It's given us some of the greatest comedy ever
Mind you, you don't strike me as someone who laughs at much, to be honest
So Starmer said he wanted £15 now says at least £10, McDonell said at least £10 and now wants £15
does seem daft for starmer to dismiss it.
though it was never 'a commitment' for £15 - beyond his interview about MaccyDs
Sadly what labour needed was some clear policy messages out of the conference, instead we have intense navel-gazing & factional name calling
all while the country is in meltdown
& if Bridges could point me to some of his far better comentators thatd be great (& Hyde is a satirist fwiw)
though it was never ‘a commitment’ for £15 – beyond his interview about MaccyDs
There is never a commitment with this version of Starmer's Labour.
£15 £10 £15 £10. If only there was a way to compromise on this issue!
There is never a commitment with this version of Starmer’s Labour.
partly, but thats really what the conference is for - to work out policy
if the policy is to keep Corbyns commitment to 'at least a £10 minimum wage' , then thats dissapointing , but at least its something
Where? Backing the call for higher wages for one set of workers
I see. So you reckon that his policy is £15 for McDonald's workers and no-one else. Where's the chinny reckon gif?
does seem daft for starmer to dismiss it.
though it was never ‘a commitment’ for £15 – beyond his interview about MaccyDs
He said it should be the norm for British workers, as I've already quoted.
It's interesting isn't it how when people resigned from Corbyn's cabinet it was his fault for being bad at leadership/politics (which he was) but when it happens to Starmer it's purely because of the troublesome lefties and he has no responsibility for it.
thankfully for labour
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1442879122640982026
(tho I think the trans issue is the one thing that will be amplified & weaponised by the tories)
Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen suggested a £15 minimum wage would harm the effort to boost the number of lorry drivers in the UK. “Imagine the impact that would have on lorry drivers wages,” he tweeted.
The Tory added: “Why would any driver face nights away from home, poor living conditions and low pay when they could stay home and earn nearly as much?”
And there we have it. When you're on the same side of the argument as the Tories, maybe you need to consider whether you support the correct political party for your values.
'We should pay people badly because otherwise people doing other crap jobs won't want to do them any more'.
That really is pathetic. You slag off MH’s writing, which gets me interested, but in your follow up you don’t actually come up with any evidence or support for your statement, you just quote some crap about how hideously privileged and rich she is…
That comes across really bitter and chippy.
I think MH is awesome, but am happy to be re-educated by someone more literate and clued up than me ( most people TBH)Perhaps you could try and educate me
Lol!
you just quote some crap about how hideously privileged and rich she is…
That comes across really bitter and chippy.
I actually made no comment about her wealth, privilege or anything else. Merely posted up something from Wikipedia, about her. You've made some massive judgments all on your own. The only one coming across as 'bitter and chippy' is you. If only you could see that...
Perhaps you could try and educate me
I could try, but I doubt I'd get very far. Therefore I won't bother wasting my time. 😀
It’s interesting isn’t it how when people resigned from Corbyn’s cabinet it was his fault for being bad at leadership/politics (which he was) but when it happens to Starmer it’s purely because of the troublesome lefties and he has no responsibility for it.
When it comes to leadership, pretty much your entire cabinet walking out, then the majority of your own MP's taking a vote of no confidence in you is a whole different stratosphere of shit than some bloke who nobody has ever heard of having a bit of a hissy fit over a policy paper that he himself endorsed two days earlier
Perspective, eh?
🤣
Of course it bloody is! It’s given us some of the greatest comedy ever
Oh I totally get comedy; it's just that you're not funny. You just think you are. In the same way someone like Jim Davidson does.
Mind you, you don’t strike me as someone who laughs at much, to be honest
Au contraire; I laugh at you a lot. 😀
That's AT you, not WITH you....
& if Bridges could point me to some of his far better comentators thatd be great
There's actually plenty in the Guardian, for starters. Happy to help. 😀
He said it should be the norm for British workers, as I’ve already quoted.
"It should be the norm" to be able to have union representation, and be properly remunerated... or "The minimum wage should be £15 now".
They aren't the same thing. I hadn't seen anything from any senior politician saying that the minimum wage should be £15 now. Labour have been taking about "at least £10 now" for a while, and "when it comes to the next election we will propose a uprating based on the economics at that time"... but if you told me before the oh so exciting resignation that any of the front bench, from Keir Starmer to Andy McDonald, had said that the minimum wage should be £15 now, or in the past (rather than something to aim for in future) I would be surprised. The "U-turn" isn't real. The politics of it stinks. Creating a simple split and battle for effect. But, hey, it's our side playing loose and easy with facts, so let's roll with it. That the internal struggle continue, and hope the voters are looking the other way (they aren't... they may not be paying much attention, but they'll get that Labour is hopelessly split and talking to themselves).
Perspective, eh?
Yes you're right, SKS is getting a much easier ride despite his abject leadership. That was my point.
But, hey, it’s our side playing loose and easy with facts, so let’s roll with it.
It's not a u-turn exactly, it's just more weasily lack of integrity.
ctk
Full Member
£15 £10 £15 £10. If only there was a way to compromise on this issue!
100% , if the end result is £12.50 pledge or whatever then I think itll play well with the electorate, though what happens with inflation between now & the next election means £15 may look like nothing , the effects of covid/ brexit are a long way from having played out on the economy
integrity
Johnson doesn't worry about that. Why would Starmer?
It seems the electorate don't care either.
it’s just more weasily lack of integrity
It's fabricated bollocks. Claiming that your party leader has promised something (that he hasn't), and is now backtracking from it (he isn't)... to do what? Get cheers in the Tribune tent, and damage the party as much as possible? Great stuff. If the aim is to get Labour policy moved further to the left than the 2019 manifesto, it's an arse about way of doing it. This makes it harder for Labour to set out and build support for its policy platform for the next election (including the work that McDonald himself was involved with on workers rights, and the freshly proposed changes to the taxation system to revive high streets and shift the tax burden onto large companies).
This thread sums up the labour party really.. Over 10 thousand posts bickering over details while on the Boris thread there is less than half that number criticising someone who has been dishonest, taken actions which if not corrupt are negligent, self interested, divisive etc etc.
The sad thing is I can’t see anyone in the parliamentary party, and with the possible exception of Andy Burnham, anywhere else who has a cat in hells chance of changing that for the better.
Okay… cast your mind back to last week… who thought that Labour, or any of its front bench, were saying that the minimum wage should be £15 right now? Anyone? Wouldn’t that have been news worthy? Wouldn’t we have discussed it?
Starmer is, and will be, shifting Labour policy. It will upset a lot of people. But minimum wage policy hasn’t shifted at all as far as I can see. Such a lot of noise about something that hasn’t happened. It’s just a fabricated rallying point that reflects a very real split in the party.
I agree. Labours biggest problem is the labour party. It continuously tears itself to pieces, fighting amongst the wings. Making policy at conference in public makes them seem divided and unsure.
Have you read the resignation letter Kelvin?
He was asked by SKS's office to go into a meeting and argue against a £15 minimum wage and against statuary sick pay at living wage.
He didn't want to so he resigned.
He does launch a diatribe against SKS aswell tbf. Definitely some politics at play but if he was happy with SKS he wouldn't have resigned.
He’s just helped write a green paper that includes changes to sick pay. Labour haven’t committed to 100% living wage to replace the currently very low statutory sick pay, and I doubt they will. And I don’t think they should as it happens. There is room for a lot of improvement well before you get close to that level.
I read the letter. It’s an excuse to resign. And gives a rallying point around a policy that was never policy.
I agree. Labours biggest problem is the labour party. It continuously tears itself to pieces, fighting amongst the wings. Making policy at conference in public makes them seem divided and unsure.
Maybe this is why the unions basically vetoed PR (not really but ironic) . Labour can't form a coherent coalition in its own party, never mind come to accommodate another party's views etc. So they wouldn't stand a chance anyway regardless of PR vs FPTP.
Right, I’m going to quote from the green paper, so you know where Labour stand. He helped write this, so he knew there is no £15 promise, and no living wage level statutory sick pay, so should have been able to defend why that is the case…
Labour will continue to assess how to deliver its commitment to raising the living wage to ensure that it is adequate and addresses the rise in the cost of living and inflation.
Labour is demanding that the minimum wage is immediately raised to at least £10 per hour for all workers and will continue to evaluate what a real living wage should be.
Labour will continue to assess how to deliver its commitment to raising the National Living Wage to ensure that it is adequate and addresses the rise in the cost of living and inflation since 2019.
Labour will strengthen rights and protections for workers and the self-employed
With a new single status of worker, millions more working people will benefit from existing rights and protections, but these need to be made stronger for all workers.
Labour will strengthen the existing set of rights and protections, including for pregnant workers, whistle-blowers, workers made redundant, workers making unfair dismissal claims and workers subject to TUPE processes.
Labour will increase Statutory Sick Pay (SSP), ensuring that we never again face a situation where workers have to choose between their health and financial hardship. Labour will also make it available to all workers, including the self-employed.
Labour will also act to strengthen protections for the self-employed. Many self-employed workers suffer from the same problems of insecurity, uncertainty, and a lack of basic rights.
OOF!
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1442881909625868291?s=20
I wonder if he's referring to anyone in particular?
Its all going to go off in the common room now! 🤣
I’m already bored of hearing from folks who earn considerably more than £15/hour telling anyone who’ll listen why this cannot possibly work.
how about those that earn a lot less than 15/hour.
A union has disaffiliated now. Splitters?
They could have done us all a favour and disaffiliated before they voted against PR
Splitters?
Tory = Shitshow
Labour = Splitshow Shitshow
What a ****ing great choice.
Winning more important than unity - you have neither though.
Johnson doesn’t worry about that. Why would Starmer?
It seems the electorate don’t care either
Except Boris is a 'character'/celebrity - people seemingly can't wait to see what zany scrapes he gets into next 'oh classic Boris'. It's similar to Trump like him or loathe him he's box office.
Starmer is a personality vacuum. He sold himself on competence and integrity and ability to unite the party. lol
Winning more important than unity – you have neither though.
Yet
At least he's got his priorities sorted
Crack on!
Good luck with that
https://www.cityam.com/keir-starmers-approval-ratings-plummet-to-same-level-as-jeremy-corbyns/
Johnson doesn’t worry about that. Why would Starmer?
It seems the electorate don’t care either.
It's true.
But the rest of the establishment hold Labour to much higher standards.
Yet
At least he’s got his priorities sorted
Crack on!
Amazing, an ailing bad cover-version of the Tories that's not actually going to win.
Starmer is a personality vacuum.
This.
It’s like having IDS. Labour would be crazy to fight an election with him as leader. Find a new leader over the next year, and quietly move this quiet guy to a shadow cabinet position like justice.
Who takes over from Starmer though, honestly, it's them and us in labour so rinse and repeat if you replace him.
Reality is, they need to sort themselves out before Starmer can even appear to be competent in front of voters, he's not the worst though, Corbyn was a completely non-entity for voters, he just had no sense of humour or ability to show any passion in his arguments with the tories, PMQ's were pretty bad with him in charge, not much better with Starmer, but who else would you put up there now, heading labour in the worst slump in generations, and a certain defeat at the next election?
grum
Good luck with thatWhy are you posting a poll from June instead of one from yesterday?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-boris-johnson-ipsos-mori-poll-b957432.htmlWhich showed the highest approval rating of an opposition leader for being PM in 13 years?
Why are you posting a poll from June instead of one from yesterday?
First link that came up when I typed in 'Keir Starmer approval rating', and I hadn't seen the one from yesterday.
Fact remains though, in terms of general election voting, loser Corbyn the most hopeless terrible man ever was polling at 43% and ahead of the Tories in Nov 2017 - Starmer is now polling 35% at best and still several points behind during an absolute omnishambles-shitshow in a bin-fire by the sitting government.
The only hope he has is that the tabloid barons get a hard-on for him sticking it to the lefties and being pro-austerity.
Did you read past the headline BTW?
They include a string of results which are the worst, or equally bad, for the party since 2015 including:
Only 20 per cent believe the party has a good team of leaders, compared to 30 per cent in October 2020.
Thirty-nine per cent say Labour understands the problems facing Britain, a significant drop from the 51 per cent a year ago.
Forty-eight per cent believe the party is concerned about people in real need in Britain, a drop of 12 points since last October.
Eighteen per cent think Labour keeps its promises, marginally lower than in October 2020.
Just 27 per cent of adults say Labour is fit to govern, down from 35 per cent a year ago, and the lowest since October 2016.
Just 33 per cent believe the party looks after the interests of “people like me”, down from 40 per cent a year ago, the lowest since October 2016.
There’s actually plenty in the Guardian, for starters. Happy to help.
Can you post their bio's so we can check their privilege
Did you read past the headline BTW?
Yes but those are mainly criticism's of the party not the man
David Lammy deflecting on the minimum wage increase.
What an utter shower.
It's absolutely fine for house prices to be off the scale but it's not okay to have the money to afford them.
Apparently this is fiscally responsible.
They haven't a clue. But yeah this is apparently competence. LMFAO.
Let me guess, he said at least £10 and that they would review the figure at the next election in light of the position the economy is in at the time?
They do look particular shit now. As someone who voted Labour for the first 30 years of my voting life I won't be switching back in a hurry so god knows what other more undecided type voters are thinking.
I read somewhere that the £15 figure was to be introduced by 2030, not immediately. Not seen it confirmed anywhere though. If that's the case then we've been had.
Labour still preaching the austerity cult nonsense anyway. 😞
Labour still preaching the austerity cult nonsense anyway.
I think politically they have no choice, regardless of perhaps their own beliefs on the matter. The message that the Tories "rescued" the country from Labour's mis-management and overspending in 2008 is still a remarkably strong one, regardless of the falseness of it. and lets not forget, until recently, Austerity was still a popular policy
From wikipedia
A YouGov poll in 2015 found that whilst 58% of those surveyed viewed austerity as "necessary", and 48% judged it to be good for economy (compared to 34% who thought it bad for the economy)
Labour spending is an open goal for Tories, and they will exploit it. I can understand the need to remove it from discussion.
Yes just hide from the facts rather than take them head on. Working out great for the country.
Austerity was still a popular policy
If labour had done a better and certainly more passionate job of explaining the damage it was doing and promoting the alternative that probably wouldn't be the case.
It is like the kowtowing to the racists, in 2010 when Brown rightly called out "the bigoted women" under his breath, he should have stuck to his guns because the views she was vocalising were bigoted, but instead he backed down. That was the time labour should have made a point and stood against the growing racism being promoted by farage and the tories to divide people, that should have been the start of a fightback with honesty and passion, but instead they backed down and allowed racism to fester.
And that is the approach they are using for the economic arguments, they are not fighting back with passion, explaining the truth and the damage being done, laying out a better and alternative future. They are kowtowing to the lies of the tories and the right wingers, and just accepting the rules of those lies in a tory light vision.
Stammer doesn't believe, he has come to an academic conclusion about what his position should be, he is a debater looking for wins through techniques rather than having a passion for the truth. Politics is a rung on the ladder of his career, it is more important for him to be leader than to transform and improve the lives of the population, their hopes and futures.
If labour had done a better and certainly more passionate job of explaining the damage
perhaps leaving a note saying “there’s no money left” with hindsight, wasn’t the best move ever
it is more important for him to be leader than to transform and improve the lives of the population, their hopes and futures.
Do you seriously, honestly believe that?
Given his CV, I'd imagine he could be doing all manner of things that are massively more financially rewarding and infinitely easier and less hassle