Sir! Keir! Starmer!

Dazh, I guess you can afford the rising costs, and don't work in an industry that relies on international customers and suppliers. Lucky you. The next twelve months are going to be hard for many. Still, at least all those who had their patriotic bone tickled enough to give Johnson and his crew a thumping majority and the chance to reform our democracy in their interests now get to watch the Labour party eat itself. Thats nice for them. They'll get to sagely nod and repeat the "it would have been even worse if Labour were in power" line, and believe it. Nicely sidestepping their own tiny part in the breaking of Britain, but more importantly letting Johnson off for every pile of shit he heaps on us with a sigh and a "Corbyn/Starmer would be worse, they can't even lead a party" truism... as the Labour party obliges by supplying the papers with internal rift headlines.

Mcclusky has no power or influence. He is just a noisy nobody.

Nickc - totally devoid of either. No philosophy and no policies in that.

also - Starmer is a centrist. i am talking about the right wingers.

My god Danny you are a horrible snob.

Johnx2

I think you make my point for me - the labour right have no philosophy and no policies. Just a load of empty rhetoric

the likes of Burnham will say anything to anyone to get a sniff of power. they are windvane politicians

Don't like to be nosey but I keep wondering who are these facists who keep getting lip service?
The right of the LP don't have the benefit of a small party and media who blindly support them they have a variety of opinions that may be unwelcome so the only way forward is to expel and produce a slimmed-down party of suitably rightwing candidates. Communications can be done via Murdoch et al and chums in the ad industry, financed by plutocrats who also support the Tories. Forget going on the knocker and being part of the community. I reckon Starmer aspires to head up a Lab-Con coalition and Change UK will be invited to re-join.
NB Not ENTIRELY serious.

My god Danny you are a horrible snob.

It's OK, I won't vote Labour again, so you've no need to worry.

Full House! Do I win anything?

Just your regular prize for being a collosal stroker.

It’s as I thought, the lefties are simultaneously niche and irrelevant but also a terrifying bogeyman that’s ruining everything

It's Schrodinger's bogeyman, and a convenient diversion from the fact that they have absolutely nothing to offer.

dannyh
Full Member

It’s OK, I won’t vote Labour again, so you’ve no need to worry.

Are you 12? One of the funniest things I've read on this forum.

Just to be clear anyone who says shit like this:

The only thing Danny stands for is his own selfish interest the interests of anyone who sets their sights beyond driving a white van, doing jobs for cash in hand, drinking Carling

is a horrible snob. & truth bomb for you callmedan, it's the horrible centrist snobs who enabled Brexit. So hope you are happy self identifying in that group.

Just your regular prize for being a collosal stroker.

Write it on one of the desks, the nearest classroom is just down from the common room.

At least I won something - Labour won't if you lot have your way.

👏

Vote for Starmer get Wes Streeting.

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1441337407215837197?s=19

The trouble is Centrism is not even really the centre. It's just being to the right but pretending you're somehow on the left.

At least I won something

You didn't Danny; you didn't.

At least I won something – Labour won’t if you lot have your way.

Gosh, you lot have the party wrapped up and yet you're still trying to find lefties to blame for your shortcomings. As is said about another issue: you won, stop whining.

Though it's pretty obvious that doing it your way makes us all losers.

you lot have the party wrapped up

I don’t think he’s a member, just a voter. And one of many in this thread who voted Labour under Corbyn but somehow are treated as the problem. We aren’t. The people voting for Johnson, or not at all, are the people that need winning over or enticed into the ballot box to join us in voting Labour. Starmer really doesn’t have what it takes to do that in my opinion, but neither is that somehow proof that Labour should dig its heals in and wait for the voters to move towards them. A repositioning is required. And a relabelling and reframing of left wing policies to reassure more people who don’t consider themselves left wing (that’s most people) to trust Labour in office, and deliver them better lives in an improving UK. The alternative is England continuing down a path that will hurt the vast majority of the public in all the UK nations, especially the lower paid with little or no capital.

And one of many in this thread who voted Labour under Corbyn but somehow are treated as the problem. We aren’t

Once again your myopia strikes. Read callmedan's posts he wants the 'lefties' kicked out.

What kelvin said.

I'm not pissing my Friday evening away arguing with people who never budge an inch. Ever.

I’m not pissing my Friday evening away arguing with people who never budge an inch. Ever.

Self-awareness alert.

Where do you want me to budge? Do you want me to start hating people who drive white vans?

I'd budge to where Starmer positioned himself when elected no problem. I'd budge to somewhere between Corbyn & Blair no problem. Will I budge to a knats nut left of Cameron? WTF would I?

But as I said earlier i dont think its about left or right- it's about old and new. Labour need a positive, truly new vision for the country that consigns all the old battlefronts to history.

I was happy to wait and see with SKS but this leader election stuff really is a deal breaker.

I think you make my point for me – the labour right have no philosophy and no policies. Just a load of empty rhetoric

the likes of Burnham will say anything to anyone to get a sniff of power. they are windvane politicians

@tj That seems condescending. I was sharing my thoughts, I'm not signed up to a manifesto. What do find objectionable in what I posted?

it’s the horrible centrist snobs who enabled Brexit.

More info needed on this please

Will I budge to a knat's nut left of Cameron? WTF would I?

I presume that's a trick question.... the answer is blindingly obvious.

it’s the horrible centrist snobs who enabled Brexit.

Definitely want to hear more about this one.

It'll have to wait until tomorrow, though.

I do hope the Brexit enabled by us 'horrible centrist snobs' hasn't led to a shortage of hobnobs and tea...

What a ****ing shambles.

🤦‍♂️

Are you one of Monbiot’s ‘fallen hippies’ who just love the counterculture stuff so much you don’t mind if it is rampant nationalism

Not at all, I think we old hippies have been proven right. Your snobbish, selfish and hubristic view of the world has resulted in an environment where nationalists can leverage the ignorance of working people to vote against their own interests. And when it comes back to bite you, you whine like like a spoilt child who’s had their sweets taken away.

Where do you want me to budge?

Its simple really. You need to provide your vote unquestioningly to the person dannyh approves of and then shut up.
Its all about give and take. The left needs to give and the "centrist" ideologues take.
Its a win win compromise!

David Cameron is the horrible centrist snob who enabled Brexit.

Your snobbish, selfish and hubristic view of the world has resulted in an environment where nationalists can leverage the ignorance of working people to vote against their own interests.

I don't recall a slogan that said 'Stick it to Middle Management'. I do, however, remember lots of stuff about brown people 'swamping' the UK, total bullshit numbers and 'taking back control', though. Must have missed that one.

PMSL.

I will ask again, who are the disillusioned Labour voters now voting for now that Starmer has done a Blair and ruined the Labour party for you.
Are you all voting Green as that is the only party that even comes close to what Labour should be doing plus throws in a bit of green stuff for good measure?
If you are I don't see many "real left" Labour voters doing that as the Green vote is still very small. Where are the voters that don't like Starmer going to get their socialist ideal?

johnx2 - nothing - its fine sentiment and I basically agree. Its just that like the labour right wing thats all it is. No actual policies, no political philosophy. Just a lot of fine words that mean little.

I will ask again, who are the disillusioned Labour voters now voting for now that Starmer has done a Blair and ruined the Labour party for you.

I find it fascinating that you keep demanding this from the “real left” but when dannyh babbles about never voting labour now you dive straight in to defend him.

Not defending anyone. I am interested in who the people who can no longer vote Labour because they are not left enough (which includes me by the way) are voting for. The only obvious choice is Green (which is who I vote for) but I don't see their vote/poll numbers going anywhere unfortunately.

Voting anything other than labour is the epitome of shooting yourself in the foot as all it does is make a tory government more likely

I always vote Labour but understand that pay rises etc come from organised labour and protests not from overpaid, cosseted windbags on short working weeks. Starmer's 'fair day's work for a fair day's pay' means nothing (ask the nurses), he lines up with the bankers and the landlords and 'hard-working families' is a straight steal from Barack Obama. He's a tricky part of the establishment much like the Guardian.

johnx2 – nothing – its fine sentiment and I basically agree. Its just that like the labour right wing thats all it is. No actual policies, no political philosophy.

Okay, you agree with where I'm coming from. "Fairness": I'd abolish public schools, tax wealthy individuals and companies, assets not just income, reduce rents, make it possible for the generation down from me to have secure affordable homes etc etc. Again, how long have you got? And again, I'd be surprised if you found anything much to disagree with. I still don't get the need to take a disparaging tone.

Voting anything other than labour is the epitome of shooting yourself in the foot as all it does is make a tory government more likely

Apart from if you live where I do (very safe 60%+ tory seat with same MP for 25 years). Labour are down in the 10% so for me voting Green makes sense as it gets their overall vote number up which I hope makes some sort of positive.

I’d abolish public schools, tax wealthy individuals and companies, assets not just income, reduce rents, make it possible for the generation down from me to have secure affordable homes etc etc.

And you think Starmer is going to do any of that? This is all stuff that if it came from any of us in the STW lefty cabal Binners would be on here in a second with his citizen smith picture. Welcome to the club though, a membership pack is on its way 😀

Fairness:

is a meaningless concept as to the left it means highly progressive income tax, to the right the opposite ie flat rate tax

Policy would be something like is 60% tax on over £100 000 pa

Philosophy is "tax the rich to reduce inequality" or similar

Not meant to be personally disparaging just that your post was a classic example of what I dislike - rhetoric that when looked at carefully means nothing and can be interpreted by anyone to mean anything

TJ, you’re right about fairness meaning different things to different people, but that’s sadly how you need to campaign to gain a broad enough base of voters. You and I might want a call for “redistribution of wealth”, but that scares the bejesus out of your average English voter, even if they would be a beneficiary of shifting the tax burden onto the wealthy and off the lower income asset poor households. So you start with talking about a “fair” taxation system, and then you flesh that out with simplistic explanations of what would actually be quite complicated changes to taxation to make them more progressive. Then repeat the “fair” part again, and again. Most people won’t get past the idea of “fair” and into the policy detail.

Are you all voting Green

I have voted Green but round here I'll be voting Lib Dem, as already mentioned.

So now all anyone in the media wants to talk about is infighting because of Starmer's attempt to change the rules without consulting anyone - not the fact that Labour have finally started mentioning some actual policy ideas.

Can someone explain how this is the left's fault please? I'm sure it must be because everything is, but I'm not quite seeing how yet.

That one is entirely on Starmer and his team. Wrong timing, and too easily painted as a step backwards rather than forwards. This could be his only conference as leader (thanks to the pandemic and Johnson having full control of the election timing) and Labour needed full focus on the next general election, not the next leadership selection. Labour do need to change how they chose their leader, but just proposing a return to block votes, at a time when Labour needs to look focused on becoming the next government, not on internal procedures, was, well… a dumb arsed move.

It's a strange old world politics. It seems to be considered normal practice that a party's so called diehard support are more bothered about retaining control of that party than winning elections.

something's gone a bit skew-whiff....

Danny you have this completely the wrong way round. It’s the rightwingers who are fighting factional battles to control the party. The left just want to get on with fighting the tories.

Danny you have this completely the wrong way round. It’s the rightwingers who are fighting factional battles to control the party. The left just want to get on with fighting the tories.

And Starmer is in the middle trying to make sense of it all

Who sabotaged Corbyn - the left or the right?

At a risk of being a bit of a bore… “both” sides are too busy fighting internal battles in the eyes of the public. It is not just “the left”, or the “the right”, or those trying and failing to pull them together (which I still think includes a dull but dedicated Starmer). There is no one bogey man group pulling the party apart. This is not the sound of one hand clapping. It’s also not new, or entirely down to those currently fighting the battles, but only those currently fighting their good fights can chose to focus their ire outwards and towards the government, rather than in internal battles.

You are right in one way daz, the centrists were complacent in thinking that racism and xenophobia had been largely eradicated in this country. 23rd June 2016 came as quite a shock on that front, I must admit.

🤷‍♂️

The Tories have internal battles & win elections.

Yes the centrists were complacent or frankly complicit with the anti immigration sentiment thathadbeen building in the UK.

Tories (even Tory centrists) fought every election on getting immigration 'down to the 10s of thousands' Labour centrists (scared of the electorate) made noises in favour of this. Corbyn when he came to power spoke positively of immigration.

Tory centrists gave us austerity, Labour centrists went along with it. Lefty Corbyn came to power and stood against austerity. Remember the vote just as he came to power?

something’s gone a bit skew-whiff….

It certainly has. Perhaps not what you're thinking though.

There is no one bogey man group pulling the party apart.

There's mainly one group pulling the party apart. Let's not have this nonsense again.

And you think Starmer is going to do any of that? This is all stuff that if it came from any of us in the STW lefty cabal Binners would be on here in a second with his citizen smith picture. Welcome to the club though, a membership pack is on its way 😀

Fairness:

is a meaningless concept as to the left it means highly progressive income tax, to the right the opposite ie flat rate tax

Policy would be something like is 60% tax on over £100 000 pa

Philosophy is “tax the rich to reduce inequality” or similar

Not meant to be personally disparaging just that your post was a classic example of what I dislike – rhetoric that when looked at carefully means nothing and can be interpreted by anyone to mean anything

...and I'd agree with all that too - some effective policies to tax the rich - capital and not just income, and make multinational tech pay it's fair share, absolutely. That's what I, a supposed centrist, would like to see happen.

My eventual point: I doubt I'd disagree with philosophy or principles or whatever in terms of the sort of world we'd want to get to. I'm sure we can have a discussion of what policies are most effective to bring that about (e.g. there seem to be a lot of economic experts, or folks who've read a couple of books anyway which is more than me, on here who know economic orthodoxy to be wrong. They're probably right too, but as I've not read the books I'll let that one go.)

This isn't motherbood and apple pie: rightwingers would regard the ability to pass on all your wealth to advantage your kids or to buy them a better education so they can get ahead of the pack, etc etc, to be fundamental freedoms and think anyone who says this simply perpetuates unfairness is just jealous. Not everyone does share these views, but a lot of what you're calling centrists and right wingers in labour terms do.

Where we disagree is on tactics to bring this about. The "what" you want do do is easy, it's the "how" which is hard.

Just when Johnson's bullshit is being exposed for what it is and the sensible majority in the country are looking around for a sensible alternative, Labour are at the seaside squabbling about intra-party protocol.

👏

That is just early conference nonsense though, wait until Starmer pulls out his big policies.

the sensible majority in the country

Is this the same sensible majority as the thick racists who voted for Brexit?

Anyone who leaves children hungry during a pandemic and can give billions of pounds to their mates on WhatsApp, I think that was pretty scummy.

Now that is a phrase, and let me contextualise it, it’s a phrase that you would hear very often in northern working-class towns. We’d even say it jovially to other people. And that to me is my street language …

I’m not saying that anyone who voted for Conservatives are racist, scummy and homophobic …

I’m saying the prime minister has said those things and has acted in that way …

If the prime minister wants to apologise, and remove himself from those comments that he’s made that are homophobic that racist, that are misogynistic, then I will apologise for calling him scummy.

This I like. Finally someone showing some backbone.

Pledge number 5 down the drain.

"I don't see nationalisation up there."

Fraud.

The exact opposite of what we need right now.

Other news: the snowflaky cancel-culture constantly offended righty press getting excited about Angela Rayner's "scum" comment.

We need more of this... She's going up in my estimation.

I'm sure all the free speech warriors on Twitter will be along to defend Rayner any minute. They must be all having a lie-in.

Other news: the snowflaky cancel-culture constantly offended righty press getting excited about Angela Rayner’s “scum” comment.

Starmer's undermined her already so he's done their job for them. That was after he undermined Ed Miliband on renationalisation.

What a guy.

I’m sure all the free speech warriors on Twitter will be along to defend Rayner any minute. They must be all having a lie-in.

Yeah, where's Julia H-B ? She's normally first in the queue.

Daz Grimes. You can count on him.

https://twitter.com/darrengrimes_/status/1442045702104887299?s=19

On cue.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1442106636068220928?s=19

I like how the shit storm is about calling them scum rather than the 'scum' smashing the country to pieces.

Go away you dozy neolib proxy.

You think sneaky austerity is the answer to anything the Tories have dropped on us?

https://twitter.com/RachelReevesMP/status/1442007944632045574?s=19

The more I see of Angela Rayner, the more I like her.

Surely in just being honest about the present government, she’s merely vocalising what a lot of people think anyway?

I’m sure it’s just the professionally offended who will be offended, as they are by pretty much everything, but I suspect she’s just gone up in a lot of people’s estimation

In stark contrast, that Rachel Reeves tweet is just depressing when the Tories are throwing money around (mainly to their mates) like a pissed sailor on shore leave

Yep the RW press making a meal out of it is not harming her in anyway.

As long as she doesn't apologise &any time she is asked just say what she said the first time.