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After the 2019 general election the LibDems were one seat down
After reading that I got a nice warm glow from the memory of Jo Swinson losing her seat and for a fleeting moment everything about politics felt ok again. 🙂
Geramny was third in your list. I wouldn't call it a catasrophical collapse.
As for France, EM regroups socialists, UDF and moderates from the tradiditional right. You don't get more centrist and there's hardly a collapse:
The center-left voters are still voting for their idea of center left which isn't necessarily the "socialist" party which is seen as a step too far for many social democrats. I voted EM Macron in the national assembly and presidential elections, green in the region (a socialist won) and socialist locally (the center right won).
Edit: I also voted Hamon in the presidential elections as I had junior's procuration and was happy to vote Hamon for him.
Are you actually serious?
Totally. Right wingers like Starmer, Hodge, Streeting, Mandelson, Blair etc have no place in the Labour Party; they have only ever used it to further their own ends. They have no belief whatsoever in the founding principles and true ethos of the party, and nothing in common with many of the people who founded the Labour movement. This much is blindingly obvious. And they are the ones that have caused so much damage, by dragging Labour ever rightwards. The Labour Party was founded as a party of the Left, and that is where it must remain, if it is to ever offer any viable opposition to right wing and fascist ideologies.
Trad support for centre left is collapsing . Unions aren’t as strong, trad Labour voters are eroding away , and as the UK population gets older, they become more socially conservative
Ruling elites have sought to undermine the Left, Socialism and democracy itself, for many decades. Let's not forget; those same tory ****s hypocritically wearing 'NHS' badges, are in the same party that voted against one of the greatest ever political achievements, anywhere. With PFI and Academy schools Blair showed just how willing he was to sell off such vital public assets, to ensure only those with wealth have access to decent education and healthcare. Continuing to make the same mistake of believing that neoliberalism can work, is to ignore what's actually ****ing happening in our society, globally, and to the planet. The unfolding crisis in Afghanistan is just one example of why such scum must be ejected, if Labour is to survive as a viable party in a functioning democracy.
Geramny was third in your list. I wouldn’t call it a catasrophical collapse.
In the 2009 election the SDP lost 76 seats, it was their worst result since before WW2. It's a fair example of Pasofikation imo.
Edit : Getting back to my original point, what the Labour Party has experienced in the last decade is very similar to what other social democratic parties across Europe have also experienced.
Right-wing parties have benefited from this collapse although in some cases also left-wing parties, when they have offered a radical alternative.
The increase by a third for Labour support in 2017 provides a clue as to how to avoid Pasokification.
It was apparent how much Cherie Blair influenced Blair and not in a good way as Blair went crusading. I'm uneasy with Starmer having an equally religious bed mate. Bush implored chirac to join him in fulfilling Biblical prophesies. I'm uneasy with religious fervour in any leader's family, whatever the religion.
we live in a country where the voting system has been rigged to deliver tory governments
Yes, that's where we live and that's the problem. Solutions start with voting in a govt to do something about this.
The CDU/CSU lost nearly the same number in 2017 Ernie, but that would be cherry picking too. Other parties have come along and taken votes from both. The voters are still there but as with the rise of EM in france, have deserted parties they previously felt represented their views for the new kid(s) on the block.
Well it won't be the first time you and me don't agree Ed. It's never easy but I'll try to deal with it 🙂
I was so shocked by that comment that I had to check the 2019 general election result!
Oh sorry, I was referring to the collapse of 20th Liberalism (the actual Liberal Party), not the current Libdems.
Oh sorry, I was referring to the collapse of 20th Liberalism (the actual Liberal Party), not the current Libdems.
Ah, I see, well it's always interesting to know what happened a 100 years ago, or what worked for Mitterrand 40 years ago and Blair 25 years ago, but let's look at the current situation. It is after all a thread about Keir Starmer.
In the immortal words of that great thinker and strategist Peter Mandelson we need to "modernise".
There's also a lot we agree on, Ernie, the devil is in the detail.
Labour has some skeletons in the cupboard that put off the very people who'd vote socialist.
Socialist, enlightened, humanist, domocratic; they are easy bed fellows, but it's easy to lose voters if you don't repsect them all. It's a lack of turnout that Labour suffers from as much as anything. People who would logically vote for them stay at home. There's no way I'd vote Tory, but could I vote labour with its recent history? Only against my better judgement because I don't trust them. Blair invaded Iraq and that's put off a whole generation of enlightened, humanist, democratic socialists. Corbyn with his dialogue from a 1974 miners' rally. And Starmer, a wolf dressed up as, err well, a wolf.
Unite's election results are in. Sharon Graham replaces Len McClusky as GS of the largest union...And says she's going to "keep out of Labour internal politics and concentrate on the workplace" She got 47,000 votes out of eligible electorate of over million. about 5% of the vote. Shockingly low. Makes the case for on-line voting all the stronger.
The reality is, your chosen graphic proves that we have a 2-party system where sometimes one wins, sometimes the other,
Sure, if you count sometimes as every time in the last 47 years apart from when a Toryish Labour party won.
We do not live in a ‘tory country’ as evidently the vast majority do not support them.
I have lived here for 53 years and to me it is very much a Tory country. In the last election the Tories had 44% vote share, meaning all other parties had 56%. 56% is not a "vast majority" who do not support them is it.
By Tory country I mean that it has a Tory feel to it (Business biased, no empathy, selfishness etc,.) and that people are happy to either elect a tory party or stand by while a tory party is elected. I do not mean that 80% of people are tory voters.
In the last election the Tories had 44% vote share, meaning all other parties had 56%. 56% is not a “vast majority” who do not support them is it.
Why are you ignoring the 37% of the electorate who didn't vote? Do their views not count? Even if we ignore them (which is stupid), 12% is a pretty big margin. But once you factor in that 37% the difference is a massive 44%, so yes I think I'm prretty safe in my position that the vast majority of people in the UK do not support the tories.
Blair was an 💩 but Cameron and Johnson are exponentially bigger 💩 (steaming piles of turd).
Bottom line is fptp isn't fit for servicing a democracy.
Whether Corbyn is a worthy leader is neither here nor there when the political system is rigged in favour of steaming lumps of reeking dog eggs.
Why are you ignoring the 37% of the electorate who didn’t vote? Do their views not count?
Given that their choice at the last election was between Joris Bohnson and Citizen Corbyn, you can understand the lack of enthusiasm
Would sir like his huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
Why are you ignoring the 37% of the electorate who didn’t vote? Do their views not count?
Er, if they wanted their views to be known they would have voted. You can't say for any certainty why people didn't vote. That's why they are discounted in this case. What's more important is addressing why they didn't vote, something I don't think any UK party is capable of doing right now.
Would sir like his huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
That's your view is it binners? And you claim to be in the Labour Party?
No wonder the party is in crisis.
Actually the lowest general election turnout since 1918 was in 2001 when Tony Blair was party leader. Presumably in 1918 WW1 got in way of voter registration.
So you think in 2001 the shit choice between Tony Blair and William Hague was the reason for the extraordinarily low turnout binners?
Blair v Hague looks like a clash of heavyweight intellectual political titans compared to those last pair of numpties
I voted for the useless, beardy allotment dweller twice, but even as a Labour Party member I knew I was simply opting for the least worst option* as the alternative was as horrific as it’s turned out to be
If that’s the best options our political system can deliver then it’s hardly surprising loads of people ticked the box marked ‘none of the above’
Doesn’t look like it’s going to get any better any time soon, does it?
* Not strictly true, as I voted for my brilliant Labour MP James Frith who lost his seat to a useless Borisite, Brexiteer Tory by 100 votes. Something I hold Comrade Corbyn entirely responsible for
Blair v Hague looks like a clash of heavyweight intellectual political titans compared to those last pair of numpties
And yet when Corbyn was party leader the turnout was very significantly higher.
Are you suggesting that the electorate were unimpressed with the "heavyweight intellectual political titans" Blair and Hague?
How does that fit in with your shit sandwich comment?
I voted for my brilliant Labour MP James Frith who lost his seat to a useless Borisite, Brexiteer Tory by 100 votes. Something I hold Comrade Corbyn entirely responsible for
LOL! I've just checked and the only reason James Firth was ever an MP was because of Jeremy Corbyn! At least the huge support that Labour enjoyed in 2017 due to Corbyn's election manifesto.
James Firth tried and failed to win your constituency seat when Ed Miliband was leader.
Are you suggesting that the electorate were unimpressed with the “heavyweight intellectual political titans” Blair and Hague?
Back then the result was such a foregone conclusion that everyone took it as read.
The election was just confirming the inevitable. Hardly going to deliver a massive turnout, is it?
Though it did deliver a whopping great majority. A bit like the one grandad just gift-wrapped for Boris with a big red bow and a nice little tag saying ‘lots of love from Jeremy, Len, Seamas and all in the bunker’
LOL! I’ve just checked and the only reason James Firth was ever an MP was because of Jeremy Corbyn!
I don’t know about that. Credit where it’s due…
Back then the result was such a foregone conclusion that everyone took it as read.
The election was just confirming the inevitable. Hardly going to deliver a massive turnout, is it?
So you obviously think that the 1997 general election was touch and go (it was the highest turnout of the last 25 year)
How do you come to such a strange conclusion binners, when the result was a Labour landslide and a foregone conclusion long before election day?
I don’t know about that. Credit where it’s due…
So your MP won his seat in 2017 because Theresa May was such a bad Tory leader, and then lost it in 2019 presumably because Boris Johnson was such a great Tory leader?
But somehow it was all the fault of Jeremy Corbyn?
What happened in 2015 before Corbyn was even leader, did your man lose the election because David Cameron was a brilliant Tory PM?
You aren't really interested in the truth/ facts binners, you just want to sling mud at anyone whose politics you disagree with.
It's a fairly widespread attitude in British politics and it is designed to win arguments rather than solve problems.
Why are you ignoring the 37% of the electorate who didn’t vote? Do their views not count?
Of course they do. They have a chance every now and then to vote for an alternative to Tory rule. When they don’t they aren’t expressing a view. That’s on them. Part of that is the voting system making them see their vote as irrelevant, part of it is opposition parties not interesting them… but it all comes down to the same thing, quietly nodding through the Tories, again. We probably have this for the rest of our lives now. There is no swinging of power between Tories and Labour in modern day England. Not any more.
So your MP won his seat in 2017 because Theresa May was such
a badan unpopular Tory leader, and then lost it in 2019 presumably because Boris Johnson was such agreatpopular Tory leader?But somehow it was
allalso the fault of Jeremy Corbyn for being unpopular?
Of course, none of that means that Starmer will be popular with voters if he stays long enough to fight an election… he won’t be. Even if Johnson’s popularity does wane, it won’t be enough for him to lose the next election… Labour need to get everything right if they hope to defeat even a failing Tory Party, and that includes having a leader that can impress the country. Starmer is not that leader. Starmer is boring. Starmer can only be a stepping stone to Labour government, he will never be PM himself, he does not have what it takes to win.
There's some spectacular running around with the goalposts going on here.
That’s one way of looking at it
The other is the proper way of looking at it, as we’re using football analogies:
Elections are like football matches. You either win or you lose. Everything else is just academic because nobody cares about anything other than the 3 points
Listening to the Corbynites/lefties rattling on about voter turnout etc is like listening to Jose Mourhino in a post-match interview after his team has just been thumped.
Always banging on about being happy with the performance, having enjoyed more possession than the opposition, then blaming the referee
They ‘won the argument’, apparently
Well done!
You lost though, yeah?
Again
Listening to the Corbynites/lefties rattling on about voter turnout
It's you that was waffling on about low turnout and shit sandwiches.
And elections are nothing like football matches, they really aren't.
The fact that you seem to think they are betrays your tribal attitude towards politics. The political stance you personally adopt is all that matters, the rights and wrongs don't come into it.
Politics isn't a game. It is an economic struggle which affects every aspect of people's lives.
Politics isn’t a game
It’s still ultimately a win/lose scenario
Everything else is just white noise
‘Moral’ victories are just defeats, especially when you hand power to the very worst people in the world, then try to sell it as a triumph
Elections are like football matches. You either win or you lose.
I'm pretty certain that those aren't the only two possibilities for football matches. You need to work on a less shit analogy.
And while we're at it, Bury North was marginal long before you were frequenting Ramsbottom's organic delis. The idea that a Labour candidate lost because of Corbyn says much about your prejudices and ignorance of history.
Of course it isn't just a win or lose scenario, otherwise there would be no point in any political activity between general elections.
Politics isn't even vaguely like a football match.
You obviously think it's all just a big game though. And you have the cheek to castigate people for voting incorrectly!
Perhaps they are taking your attitude and dismissing it as nothing more than a game.
When they don’t they aren’t expressing a view.
Incorrect. They might be expressing the view that its not worth voting due to fptp or that they dont see any obvious difference between the parties.
After all the party which gets power routinely gets less than a majority of the vote so what does a few extra votes mean.
I do turn out to vote but honestly I do struggle to bother since I have only ever lived in uncontested constituencies where at best the primary contender is a pretty promising potential politician but not one who is promising enough they get dropped straight into a safe seat but need to wait an election cycle and try somewhere else first.
And if this doesn’t look like a Tory country not sure what does. (The blue bits are Tory by the way)
It shows we are a country with a rural/urban split. When you think about the issues associated with rural poverty, lack of access to services etc it's arguably a fundamental issue for labour that they can't make headway in any meaningful way.
My constituency is considerably poorer than Binner's which it borders yet has a long term conservative MP. The last two labour candidates have been Will Straw (eventually could find it on the map) and the council leader whose baggage includes a scheme that's lost £6million and counting. Not a single labour leaflet at the local elections, one of their councillors has now defected to the greens. It's not "Tory country", it's labour failing to engage and give the locals something they think is worth voting for.
By Tory country I mean that it has a Tory feel to it (Business biased, no empathy, selfishness etc,.) and that people are happy to either elect a tory party or stand by while a tory party is elected.
It's nothing to do with how people vote
I'm on holiday in N Devon, out for a walk with the kids we passed a older couple who had stopped to let us past on a narrow path, kids ahead had said thanks as I did, I was surprised when they remarked we were the first to say thanks all day, all I could say was thank you and that it's probably that we're from the North (Yr Hen Ogledd forever!!). It's statistically very unlikely that every previous walker had been a conservative voter. Unfortunately wherever you are people can be rude regardless of political sympathies. People can be focused on money (look at the retirement thread). But also people can be exceptionally generous and go out of their way to help strangers.
Some people lead small lives, some people are community focused, I would suggest that they vote for all parties to greater or lesser degrees. It doesn't make it a "Tory country", a relatively small voter swing sees the political map change dramatically.
The many issues Labour has includes the way it selects MP's (Jared O'Mara anyone?) generates policy, the lack of confidence that it will have more than one term that leads it to cramming the everything including the kitchen sink into a manifesto as well as muppets like Richard Burgon (you can also feel the votes disappearing every second he's on the telly).
When they don’t they aren’t expressing a view.
We are going round in circles but essentially if you're not a boomer voting is pretty pointless.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/11/britain-election-boomers/602680/
And while we’re at it, Bury North was marginal long before you were frequenting Ramsbottom’s organic delis. The idea that a Labour candidate lost because of Corbyn says much about your prejudices and ignorance of history.
I lived in the constituency in 2017 and 19, Frith in 17 was competing against a terrible sitting MP. Even the local councillor who canvased me in 2017 agreed. He had zero redeeming features unless you were a Brexit obsessive. For his two year's in the seat Frith never missed a photo opportunity, publicity opportunity, or opportunity to appear concerned. He had a significant local machine ably assisted by Binner's etc.
I agree Corbyn cost him his seat. That's despite the clear effort by Frith to never be pictured with him.
Incorrect. They might be expressing the view that its not worth voting due to fptp or that they dont see any obvious difference between the parties.
They might.
But since they chose not to record that on any sort of public ballot then we could also say they preferred to stay home and talk to their goat about metaphysics.
If you don't turn up to vote, you don't count. If you at least spoil your ballot that gets recorded.
Every. ****ing. Election.
Frith in 17 was competing against a terrible sitting MP. Even the local councillor who canvased me in 2017 agreed. He had zero redeeming features unless you were a Brexit obsessive.
So Firth in 2017 won because the Tory candidate had no redeeming features, unless you were a brexit obsessive, it had nothing to do with Corbyn, apparently.
And yet in binners own words in 2019 : "Labour MP James Frith who lost his seat to a useless Borisite, Brexiteer Tory"
And that, suprise surprise, was Corbyn's fault.
This is what I mean about running around with the goalposts. Like blue-arsed files.
Corbyn was poison on the doorstep up here in 2019 Earnie. Pretending otherwise isn’t going to get us anywhere.
If you don’t turn up to vote, you don’t count. If you at least spoil your ballot that gets recorded.
Aside from spoiling your ballot means bugger all either. You might possibly amuse one of the volunteers counting them if you spoil it in an appropriate way or it might just mean you are one of the coloured crayon brigade who havent managed to keep the scribbles within a box yet.
The problem is every chance for intelligent reform of the voting system has been wasted.
The new labour idiots decided not to care and the lib dems were too incompetent.
And has Starmer shown any interest in voting reform? Not that the others he stood against have either since the 2019 loss, with the notable exception of Clive Lewis.
Corbyn was poison on the doorstep up here in 2019 Earnie. Pretending otherwise isn’t going to get us anywhere
Corbyn went down like a cup of cold sick in ‘Red Wall’ constituencies no matter how deified he was in Islington. Mainly because he was so deified in Islington.
No matter who took over from the magic grandad, they had a bigger task on their hands than kinnock because of the total car crash he bequeathed them. He managed to finally sever the link between northern working class constituencies and a Labour leader who did ‘working class northerner’ as cosplay at the odd weekend where he’d attend a miners gala or something equally as ridiculous, cliched and patronising, before making sure he was on the first train back to London. Read Stuart Maconies ‘The Road to Jarrow’ to see this exposed for the sham that it was
Alongside Ivy and Selfridges regular Len McClusky who worked on the docks in Liverpool for half an hour before using union members fees to buy himself a nice flat in London and becoming a professional Scouser and voter-repellent
It baffles me how easily the left of the Labour Party slag off Blair and co while being so easily taken in by these highly remunerated charlatans and their laughable, retro 70’s ‘men of the people’ schtick
So Firth in 2017 won because the Tory candidate had no redeeming features, unless you were a brexit obsessive, it had nothing to do with Corbyn, apparently.
The former conservative MP had the "honour" of essentially initiating Brexit if you read Tim Shipman's All Out War. Locally he was a liability, complete non entity, and missing in action. By 2017 the constituency was voting for anyone else, Frith had a strong local party hitting the doorsteps hard.
Two years of no opportunity to support a local issue missed and he's out the door to a local councillor who was as shocked as anyone when he won
And has Starmer shown any interest in voting reform? Not that the others he stood against have either since the 2019 loss, with the notable exception of Clive Lewis.
Because few care about it, it doesn't win you votes. It's notable because he's daft enough to think it will get labour into power to deliver
David Nuttall was universally hated because as soon as he was elected he was never seen in the constituency again and would struggle to find his supposed constituency on a map. Much like the present journeyman Tory, James Daly.
I remember seeing him, pre-referendum, listed as the Tory most likely to defect to UKIP
An utter ****! As is his Tory replacement. Cheers for that Jezza
It baffles me how easily the left of the Labour Party slag off Blair and co while being so easily taken in by these highly remunerated charlatans and their laughable, retro ‘men of the people’ schtick
Is Starmer now a charlatan because he is paid the same as Corbyn was as LOTO?
People slag off Blair because of his policies. Iraq, Academies, shite PFI deals etc.
David Nuttall was universally hated as as soon as he was elected he was never seen in the constituency again
He wasn't sent to prison though, so still has that over Labour.
Corbyn was poison on the doorstep up here in 2019 Earnie. Pretending otherwise isn’t going to get us anywhere.
Where on earth have I pretended otherwise?? Corbyn without a shadow of a doubt was a liability for Labour in 2019, he certainly put me off supporting Labour.
He convinced me beyond all reasonable doubt that he would make a terrible prime minister, as he did also millions of other once loyal Labour voters.
However the situation in 2017, when against all the odds Labour increased its support massively by a third with an extra 3 million votes, was quite different, here Corbyn was clearly an asset.
Not because the bearded woke middle-class liberal cyclist appealed to voters, but because of the direction he took the Labour Party. We had yet to find out how totally useless he was.
In 2015-17 Corbyn energised Labour and British politics, I even canvassed for Labour in 2017. By 2019 I wouldn't even vote Labour.
Edit : To fair I was spared the dilemma of how to vote in 2019, something which I am extremely grateful for, as I didn't have the right to vote.
However the situation in 2017, when against all the odds Labour increased its support massively by a third with an extra 3 million votes, was quite different, here Corbyn was clearly an asset.
No silly, 2017 gains were despite Corbyn.
Not because the bearded woke middle-class liberal cyclist appealed to voters, but because of the direction he took the Labour Party. We had yet to find out how totally useless he was.
Agreed 100%. He got me voting Labour for the first time in 2017. As soon as I’d read the leaked version of the manifesto I was on board. By the time of the 2019 election he felt like the biggest obstacle to a Labour government (well, the second biggest, after the Brexit illusion). I still voted Labour, in part because I didn’t believe in the slightest that Labour could win outright, and a Labour led coalition government would be vastly preferable to a Johnson led one of any makeup.
By 2019 I wouldn’t even vote Labour.
Who did you vote for, and who’s now your MP?
Theresa suggested that the boomers may not be entitled to their triple-locked privilege.
There’s your 3 million votes
If you think it’s anything other than that, particularly a positive endorsement of the Islington Allotment dweller, then you need your bumps feeling
David Nuttall was universally hated because as soon as he was elected he was never seen in the constituency again and would struggle to find his supposed constituency on a map. Much like the present journeyman Tory, James Daly.
Which is tripe (apart from the hated bit), Nuttall Lived (still lives?) locally and was active in the church in Tottington. Daly is (controversial) a local councillor for many years. Nuttall may have been an import but he made the constituency home. Daly was always local.
Edit : To fair I was spared the dilemma of how to vote in 2019, something which I am extremely grateful for, as I didn’t have the right to vote.
Prison term?
If you think it’s anything other than that, particularly a positive endorsement of the Islington Allotment dweller, then you need your bumps feeling
You keep up your classy debating style binners, it's a sure way to win people over.
Who did you vote for, and who’s now your MP?
See my edit. I live in a very safe Tory seat but across the boarder not far from me is a Labour seat which was won in 2017, I helped on that campaign. It remained Labour in 2019.
Prison term?
Cheeky git.
I am an EU national who has never got round to applying for British nationality. Although I intend to soon especially .as the rules have changed and I can now do so through my mother's dual nationality.
So yeah, no legal right to vote. Although very grateful for your world famous British hospitality. Gawd bless yous.
Nuttall may have been an import but he made the constituency home.
As someone who works in the local charity sector informed me, Once Nuttall was down in Westminster he’d come back up here once every few months, have a whistle stop tour, photographer in tow, of local charities, shaking hands and kissing babies, then be on the next train back to Euston
He was a trustee of many local charities and they wouldn’t see him from one year to the next apart from his instant appearance at any event with the press present
They actually started giving his PA the wrong dates so he’d miss the press photographers and turn up 2 days later 😂
‘Two jobs’ Daly is just as invisible but still picking up his expenses as a councillor despite being an MP and so doing no council work. How very Tory.
.Theresa suggested that the boomers may not be entitled to their triple-locked privilege.
There’s your 3 million votes
If you think it’s anything other than that, particularly a positive endorsement of the Islington Allotment dweller, then you need your bumps feeling
You are wrong, statistics show you are wrong. Unless of course the under 25s were voting to keep their grandparents triple lock.
As someone who works in the local charity sector informed me, Once Nuttall was down in Westminster he’d come back up here once every few months, have a whistle stop tour, photographer in tow, of local charities, shaking hands and kissing babies, then be on the next train back to Euston
He was a trustee of many local charities and they wouldn’t see him from one year to the next apart from his instant appearance at any event with the press present
They actually started giving his PA the wrong dates so he’d miss the press photographers and turn up 2 days later 😂
‘Two jobs’ Daly is just as invisible but still picking up his expenses as a councillor despite being an MP and so doing no council work. How very Tory.
So anyway binners nevermind Paul Nuttall, or Jeremy Corbyn for that matter, what's your opinion of Starmer?
You haven't said much about him recently, despite posting prolifically for the last day or so on this Keir Starmer thread.
It's unusual for you to be shy when it comes to expressing an opinion of a Labour Party leader.
If it helps rone's post shows that in the latest opinion poll the Tories back on a double digit lead.
What is your opinion on whether or not he has an allotment?
Or are you waiting for someone to feel your bumps before committing yourself?
And has Starmer shown any interest in voting reform?
Even if he did he would soon lose interest if he managed to win an election under current system. The party in power (under the system that got them into power) is never going to propose/back reforming the way voting works as that would mean they would not get into power again.
So anyway binners nevermind Paul Nuttall, or Jeremy Corbyn for that matter, what’s your opinion of Starmer?
My opinion hasn’t changed since the last time you asked me. I’m incredibly disappointed in his failure to make any impact on this flailing corrupt government. Like many, I’m frustrated by the timid, Uber-cautious approach in failing to call Johnson and co out, and his total failure to articulate what the Labour Party is meant to stand for nowadays.
I unfortunately agree with Kelvin that he simply doesn’t have what it takes to win an election. I thought (or hoped) that this country might want somebody a bit more serious, sober and professional (read: dull), but it seems they still want a performing seal balancing a beach ball on his nose
A truly depressing thought
So you now agree he's useless, like many of us have been telling you for months. Do we get an apology for all the insults now?
I don’t think he’s useless, in the way that Corbyn was so clearly hopeless, so no apology.
And you lot give as good as you get on the insults, so dry your eyes eh, sweetheart?
I still think that there’s time to turn things around before an election. We’ve still got the real-time effects of Brexit to arrive yet, without Covid to hide behind. Christmas is going to be interesting
But he needs to start taking a far harder line and go on the offensive against this shower because at the moment he seems more like a commentator than a leader of the opposition. He’s let them off the hook for far too many epic **** ups when he should have gone for the jugular
And there is still the small matter of who you replace him with, if he goes now.
Because few care about it, it doesn’t win you votes.
Very few people cared about the EU prior to everyone getting excited about the referendum.
The lib dems obviously care about it and quite a few people who were voting for ukip etc noticed how little their votes mattered.
So a properly run campaign could get support although it would be fighting uphill against the press who like things the way they are
I don’t think he’s useless, in the way that Corbyn was so clearly hopeless, so no apology.
You just might think that after constantly ranting about how awful Corbyn was, and how any half decent leader would be annihilating the Tories, that when you realised how wrong you were you might show a little humility in this thread. How silly of me.
I’m incredibly disappointed in his failure to make any impact on this flailing corrupt government
I disagree binners. If you were "incredibly disappointed" by Starmer you wouldn't be simply posting such a downbeat sombre critique.
You would be posting a multitude of completely irrelevant comments such as his physical appearance or gardening capabilities, and using your gifted eloquence to spew out a tsunami of insults to illustrate how utterly useless he is.
You would be incandescent with rage at the Parliamentary Labour Party for meekly tolerating such a useless leader, probably insulting them by calling them an incompetent self-serving cult.
I think the truth is that you don't really have a problem with Starmer. Politics after all is just a game to you, so you tell us.
You know that he's totally useless so you are obviously not going to make any attempt to defend him. But on the other hand you are not going to go overboard in attacking him because frankly he's an embarrassment to you which you would rather ignore.
Hence your regular posting on this thread although almost never talking about Starmer. You use it to simply attack others.
.
You just might think that after constantly ranting about how awful Corbyn was, and how any half decent leader would be annihilating the Tories
And as I've repeatedly stated, any leader that inherited the absolute car crash that 5 years of that imbecile had produced, had the job from hell on their hands. Becaues they would be starting from probably the lowest base the party has ever had. Worst election defeat for 85 years, lest you forget. Cheers for that Jezza
*slow handclap*
You know that he’s totally useless so you are obviously not going to make any attempt to defend him
I've not said he's useless at all. you have, repeatedly, but I'm afraid you're putting words in my mouth there.
I've said that it's not too late to turn it around. We're a couple of years out from any election yet. We keep being told that at some point there will be detailed policy, so I live in hope that it delivers. The team around him need to step up too.
Theres also the question of how long the country is prepared to tolerate the present clown circus. We'll see how food shortages on the run up to Christmas play out with a country that was sold the Brexit colonial sunny uplands bullshit
It is almost impossible to know who will get voters behind them and who won't so you just need to try it.
Corbyn did a good job at getting voters behind him at the start and it was clear what he stood for and he tried to stick to it. He was unfortunately a gift to the opposition though as too easy to drag things up, make him look a bit silly etc,. even if not really true it was enough to put people off and when up against Johnson and get Brexit done rather than May and whatever she was trying to do if was a non starter. If Corbyn was more of a Johnson, brush it all off, type character would it have made any difference? Who knows?
They don't have any of that with Starmer who I thought would be a good change but quickly turned out he didn't have what it takes. I don't think any of the likely contenders have it either which is a very big problem.
And as I’ve repeatedly stated, any leader that inherited the absolute car crash that 5 years of that imbecile had produced
You sound like the tories who still blame Gordon Brown for wrecking the public finances. At what point are you going to accept that the blame for labour's current problems lies squarely with Starmer and his fellow rightwing travellers?
Becaues they would be starting from probably the lowest base the party has ever had.
So one of the most useless and self-serving tory governments in history, and starting from the lowest base. Surely then Starmer would have had no problem reducing the polling deficit. How's that going?
We’ll see how food shortages on the run up to Christmas play out with a country that was sold the Brexit colonial sunny uplands bullshit
If your only hope for labour turning things around is hoping the remain brexit doomsday scenario plays out as you think it will then you're in fantasyland. The only thing Starmer has got right is staying a million miles away from the B-word. If your opinion is typical of labour centrists/rightwingers then it only underlines the bankruptcy of ideas and lack of courage and motivation which will enable labour to win an election again.
Becaues they would be starting from probably the lowest base the party has ever had.
Doesn't really explain this either does it.
Keir Starmer's poll ratings are now worse than Jeremy Corbyn's at the same point in their respective leaderships, polls show.
A new survey from YouGov conducted on Monday found Sir Keir has a net rating of -48, with just 17 per cent of voters saying he is doing well and 65 per cent saying he is doing badly.
At around the same point in Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in September 2016, Sir Keir's predecessor had a net rating of -40 per cent.
Mr Corbyn had by this point survived an attempt by internal opponents to oust him as leader, winning the 2016 leadership contest by 62 per cent to 38 for his rival Owen Smith.
And that's with a largely favourable press for Starmer compared to constant vilification.
I’ve repeatedly stated, any leader that inherited the absolute car crash that 5 years of that imbecile
This is very true. You have always attempted to shift the blame for Labour's failure under Starmer onto Corbyn, even when Labour has done substantially worse than it did under Corbyn.
I’ve not said he’s useless at all. you have, repeatedly, but I’m afraid you’re putting words in my mouth there.
No I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm telling you that you know he is useless, that's why you hate talking about him, even on a thread dedicated to Starmer.
Although now you are saying that's it's not too late for Starmer to turn things around and save the day.
I look forward to seeing your posts on this thread between now and the next general election illustrating how Magic Starmer is getting on with his incredible mission.
At what point are you going to accept that the blame for labour’s current problems lies squarely with Starmer and his fellow rightwing travellers?
Both are true. While Corbyn initially energised lots of voters who Labour weren’t connecting with, he also turned off and away many others… more so after sticking around after the 2017 election defeat. The damage done to the perception of the party from 2017-19 will take years to sort. That doesn’t mean that Starmer is the man to do that. He has neutralised some of the mistrust of Labour for some who need to be won over, but is also failing to excite them (or engage well with many of those already wanting Labour to replace the Conservatives).
Labour, somehow, need to replace him a year out from the next election. A near impossible task, because the timing is not in their hands and the party is not able to nimbly install a new leader.
And, also… who should it be? It is a near impossible job at the moment, and the next leader could easily be much worse, rather than better, at in the role. Labour can fall further behind still. Don’t assume things can only get better.
I’m telling you that you know he is useless
Is there anything else you'd like to tell me I 'know', comrade?
Olives aren't the devils chug-nuts and don't taste of washing up liquid?
Pies are over-rated?
It'll be good to see Liverpool win the league?
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Labour can fall further behind still. Don’t assume things can only get better.
Oh don't worry I'm under no illusions things will improve. In fact I've said many times here that labour are looking at a Scottish style collapse in England. They'll be lucky to have more than a 100 MPs after the next election. If you want an explanation then Binners neatly sums it up. All the voting public hear from labour is:
- It's all Corbyn's fault
- Brexit is the disaster we said it would be
- Boris is a clown
There's nothing positive or hopeful there that suggests they'd change things to improve the lives of ordinary people. In fact it only reinforces the general view that labour take people's votes for granted, as if them being in power will suddenly make everything ok again. No one is going to vote for a party which doesn't have the courage of its own convictions and thinks it's entitled to power.
Is there anything else you’d like to tell me I ‘know’, comrade?
Are you actually denying that you think Starmer is useless??? LOL!
So you think he's capable do you?? LOL! You daft Muppet!
I love your innocent naivety binners, it's quite endearing!
No one is going to vote for a party which doesn’t have the courage of it’s own convictions and thinks it’s entitled to power.
How come that works perfectly well for the Tories then?
He has neutralised some of the mistrust of Labour for some who need to be won over
Has he?