MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
By which I mean a sleeping bag with stuffing only on one side, and an inflatable bikepacking type mattress which only has air and no foam, like the Alpkit Cloudbase.
Is it a recipe for a freezing night? Given you're well off the floor with such a mattress, is there enough clearance to give you some insulation? I'd imagine it with a silk liner or something. I sleep very warm generally.
Also see: quilts.
I do have a quilt (Cumulus 250) which I use in warmer months. Works well. Can be a bit draughty if it's really blowing hard and I'm not in a tent. A thin bivvy bag fixes that.
Quilt is also useful to "top up" a lighter bag and make it 4 season.
Single-sided bag would share much if the same, possibly less draughty.
There was an earlier single-sided bag (Macpac I think) that had a sleeve for a mat. That seemed to be disliked as the bag didn't roll with you in the night. Worked OK if you were a back-sleeper that didn't move much in the night.
FWIW I never use a non-insulated mat.
Don't decent mats have a R value for insulation?
Is it a recipe for a freezing night? Given you’re well off the floor with such a mattress, is there enough clearance to give you some insulation? I’d imagine it with a silk liner or something. I sleep very warm generally.
It depends on the design of the sleeping bag and how you sleep - if you're a side sleeper there's a tendency for chilly gaps to appear where the mat meets the sleeping bag, it you're a weirdo who sleeps on their back, it's less of an issue ime. The Therm-a-Rest bags were/are quite well thought out, others I've used less so.
PHD did a super-lightweight race bag with no insulation on the base. You have to be very keen and in warm conditions to use it ime, but it makes an excellent bag liner if you want to upgrade an existing bag with some extra insulation where it does the most good.
So... it depends. Personally I'd rather have a conventional lightweight bag, live with the extra grammes and not be tethered to my sleeping mat. YMMV
That seemed to be disliked as the bag didn’t roll with you in the night.
In both my lightweight bags I have to roll inside it rather than have it roll with me. The single sided one obvs, but my other one is also under-stuffed on the back so I'd get a cold bum anyway. A bag with a mattress sleeve might actually help the bag stay put when turning over.
Don’t decent mats have a R value for insulation?
Yes, but I'm after real-world experiences of having basically no R value underneath. But if pumped up enough I might end up entirely off the floor which might be similar R value to touching it through foam - not sure.
BTW I'm not shopping for a bag. The one I have is a Rab Q-Top that was so cheap at an event goodness knows how long ago that I couldn't refuse. And I was given a Tievoli inflatable mat recently.
Yes, but I’m after real-world experiences of having basically no R value underneath. But if pumped up enough I might end up entirely off the floor which might be similar R value to touching it through foam – not sure.
It depends on the design of the matt. Stuff that has semi-compartmentalised air-cell type things work better than you'd expect, at least in summer conditions. I've used the sea to summit equivalent of the Cloudbase - the one Alpkit copied - and it's fine for summer use. I wouldn't want to use it on a glacier though.
One other thing that's not been mentioned, not having any insulation under your body doesn't subjectively feel 'nice' ime.
BTW I’m not shopping for a bag. The one I have is a Rab Q-Top that was so cheap at an event goodness knows how long ago that I couldn’t refuse. And I was given a Tievoli inflatable mat recently.
Sleep in the garden tonight and let us know then 🙂
IME an air mattress gives pretty much no insulation.
If it's a Quantum Top Bag you're doomed. There's a reason you picked it up dirt cheap and it isn't that it works really well 😉
If it’s cold an uninsulated air mat with no r value will be terrible, the heat will just bleed away from you. I made the mistake years ago of doing a month on one in the Himalayas and it was the coldest experience I’ve ever had - I cried tears of relief when I got back down.
Do yourself a favour and buy a Thermarest xTherm. You can thank me later.
Do yourself a favour and buy a Thermarest xTherm. You can thank me later.
He already has a Tievoli mat, he didn't want recommendations for an alternative 😉
A cheap foam karrimat can be better insulation than many of these air mats. Or a foil backed one could be a bit better.
And probably lighter weight. Disadvantage is the bulkiness, and not as comfortable.
Ah - Tievolei.
It's a palindrome of I Love It.
The disadvantage of Karrimats are their size.
This stuff might be an upgrade and be light, but it looks US only. Any ideas of a European alternative?
I've used the Q-Top before btw. It was ok.
I may consider modding it with some fleece sewn onto the bottom.
There ya go:
https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/sleeping-mats-c58/closed-cell-foam-mats-c137
I've got a variety of sleeping bags and mats. If it's going to be cold I take a thick Decathlon karrimat and a good down bag. The karrimat just gets strapped on the rucksac or on top of the pannier rack. Just air is cold. Foam self-inflating weigh more for the same level of warmth as a karrimat but do pack up small. Cut the karrimat to size/shape.
The disadvantage of Karrimats are their size.
I assume you are discounting the likes of the Exped UL7 on account of cost?
I've used a quilt (Cumulus 150) with an uninsulated mat (Klymit X-frame). Fine for racing in summer where you aren't expecting a full night's sleep in the Hilton and aim to save weight and bulk but it's a bit "monk like" for touring. I'd also only use it during the warmer months so mid May through to September, possibly October depending on year, when the ground is warm.
Remember there's three types of inflatable mat. In increasing warmth (R-value): those without any insulation like the Alpkit Nemo and Klymit X-frame; those with open cell foam like the original Thermarest; those with insulation like the Exped Synmats and Downmats.
Foam / Karrimat / Z-lite things = cheaper, bulky, seriously light, OK warmth, less padding.
Inflatable with no insulation = weigh more than foam for less insulation, but more padding and fashion.
Inflatable with insulation (aka most Thermarest's, Exped UL, many copies from Vango, ME, Robens, Decathlon etc etc) - heavier than foam, less bulky, more expensive, better padding and better insulation. Diminishing returns on cost Vs all other features.
You pays your money....
Fwiw, I do still use a foam mat - for one night light weight things, or under another mat in mid winter.
Usually though it's a Decathlon, Robens, Vango or Mountain Equipment inflating, insulated mat.
I do want to try a quilt - I find bags restrictive for sleeping.
I may buy a piece of fleece and try rhat, see how I get on. Obvs it's a summer only solution, not expecting winter gear to be that light.
An Exped Synmat HL weighs 365g. Lighter than your Tievoli and with insulation. It's what I use all year round.
An Exped Synmat HL weighs 365g. Lighter than your Tievoli and with insulation. It’s what I use all year round.
Fleece will be better.
ps: I'm guessing this is the later Rab Quantum Top Bag with a Pertex fabric bottom rather than the truly awful first one which had a mesh base. I'd forgotten about that, it wasn't very good at all for obvious reasons.
Fleece will be better.
And cheaper 🙂
I'm more than happy with my un-insulated Alpkit Numo for cycle touring but I combine it with a half reasonable down bag
An Exped Synmat HL weighs 365g. Lighter than your Tievoli and with insulation. It’s what I use all year round.
Ok but I was just given the Tievoli mat a few months ago by my wife so I'm not going to ditch it and spend more on something else. That wouldn't go down well.
I posted to see people's experiences of using what is basically a quilt and an uninsulated at mattress. I realise it's not the warmest thing but I'm clearly not looking for that.
The Q Top could easily be made into something just like a quilt, it's basically the same thing already. And yes it's the one with the pertex back.
Sea to Summit list a mattress that appears to be like mine uninsulated and give it an R value of 1.2.
Wondering about cutting the pertex down the sides and adding velcro or similar so I could stick my legs out if it's hot...
I realise it’s not the warmest thing but I’m clearly not looking for that
It's about the coldest.
Ok so do you have experiences?
Ok so do you have experiences?
Yes. I used the Cumulus 150 and Klymit X-frame (actually just the torso length version) on the Highland Trail. The worst night I had was when I stopped at a hotel's bothy complete with fresh linen and hot bath!
I wouldn't use that setup tonight, the ground is still too cold. Wait a month and you should be OK. Avoid frost hollows. As a rule of thumb, if the trees are in full leaf then an uninsulated mat will be OK. As ever, how tired, cold, wet and hungry you are will also make a big difference to whether you feel warm or cold in any given situation.
To avoid "sweat inducing contact" wear thermals, pyjamas or the like. Sleeping bag ratings assume you are doing so - in fact the EN13537 testing protocol specifies that the mannequin is dressed (in a shell suit IIRC).
Although quilts seem to be the insulation choice de jour, I've always taken a decent (-5 rated down bag) on every adventure from summer in the Lakes to winter in Scotland. I've only ever used it as a quilt, ie; I don't zip it up unless I'm too cold.
I can vouch, from personal experience, that air mattresses are for comfort, not insulation.
Good post Whitestone - so it's a goer in the warmer months, that's what I wanted to know.
I tend to sleep naked, but if I were using the Q-Top I would probably bring a silk liner at the very least, and/or boxers and base layer. If I were on a trip I'd probably back sleep-wear.
I tend to sleep naked
I hope you use a sleeping bag liner 🙂
There goes the resale value on bags and mats.