I really don't understand all the hate for stand-up paddle boards...
Steve. break even point IS a basic concept. Perhaps you need to look into things a little then you might not make such bizzare comments
Steve. break even point IS a basic concept. Perhaps you need to look into things a little then you might not make such bizzare comments
Really, so why don't you pop out into the street and ask 100 people?
It means nothing to anyone but those who want to piggy back on top of climate change to sell their pet projects.
So, the IPCC, the UN and all climate scientists say we need to leave most of the oil and gas we already know about in the ground yet the UK is licencing to open 100+ more wells in the North Sea (and despite what they say, we're dirty extractors with low standards).
So how many of you have donated to just stop oil?
How many of you HATE this whiny emo girl for "not bringing the public along"?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CK1QKZwMIZ8&feature=emb_logo
How many of you with kids are actual activists?
Or are you just a bunch of do-nothing hypocrites?
Steve. break even point IS a basic concept. Perhaps you need to look into things a little then you might not make such bizzare comments
@tjagain if you just ignore the troll your life will be much simpler. FWIW I am still to look up your hydrogen stats, I've not forgotten, just been absolutely knackered every night thanks to Covid.
Been there, done that, over it.
squirrelking
@tjagain if you just ignore the troll your life will be much simpler.
LOL, what irony...
and exactly how we ended up so screwed... just ignore anyone that wants to explore more acceptable options and if they keep asking then call them a troll.
Exactly why we need proper custodial sentences for spreading eco misinformation.
Or are you just a bunch of do-nothing hypocrites?
A hyprocrite is just someone wants to ban hydrocarbons whilst insulating their home with hydrocarbons.
A hyprocrite is just someone wants to ban hydrocarbons whilst insulating their home with hydrocarbons.
Even you can surely see there's a massive difference between burning hydrocarbons and using them to reduce the need to burn more hydrocarbons? Both the good and bad thing about plastics is they last a really long time.
Nope - he's been banging that drum since the early parts of the thread WRT EVs, Wind Turbines, Battery Storage - everything!
This is despite the fact that other and myself have repeatedly stated that the breakeven point for Co2 is usually in the 3-5 years and in some cases happens much sooner.
Lifecycle emissions are important, but in use emissions for practically anything which BURNS fossil fuels far outstrip any production costs over the lifecycle.
Where it is important is for contrasting different infrastructure (CO2) costs. Hinkley point - 44m tones of CO2 form the concrete alone. Dogger Bank Wind Farm - 400k tonnes including the copper mining smelting and transportation and full assembly...They produce the same power and have similar life spans...
I am basically squirrellking.
Well I was all interested in talking about solutions, maybe I'd be inspired to do see what I could do, but Chevychase and TJ have turned the thread into a shit slinging festival which has completely put me off.
Maybe go and glue yourself to a motorway or something, and leave the actual problem solving to others?
FIT tarrifs. These need investigating much more closely.
2p per kwh or whatever it is atm is an insult.
The initial rate was way too high. It benefited the rich monetarily, who generate more co2 than poor people.
Again, the ukgov. Instead of spending millions or billions on more power stations underwite the pv generation tariffs and loam schemes for batteries.
Make it viable to everyone with a roof to put panels on, then if you charge your car for free more people would switch quicker.
Problems are the tories, they are mates with the big dogs at shell, Bp etc
Dino juice companies are looking at £100billion im profits this year, and no windfall tax, so far.
Tax them, use the tax to fund pv and invest in ways to utilise the pv generated electricity so everyone and the planet benefit
TJ have turned the thread into a shit slinging festival which has completely put me off.
I didn't contribute for several days after you blew up at me because you didn't understand what I was saying.
I gave one major solution and one for transport and you attacked me personally because you totally missed the point.
Ok - Im off again
We already have the solutions @molgrips - we're just not implementing them.
So if you want to do something useful your action is clear - join the protestors.
Or do what you're doing - nothing. Just mugging your own ego off on forums talking about "solutions" when you could be attempting to force government into action.
I gave one major solution and one for transport and you attacked me personally because you totally missed the point.
Ok so I thought I could see an issue with your proposal, and I brought it up. I think that's how discussion is meant to work, isn't it? You should be able to defend your proposal or modify it, surely?
I got annoyed because I was trying to explain my thoughts on the subject and you were contradicting me, attempting to tell me what my own thoughts are. Which is a bit of a ridiculous way to run a discussion, don't you think? How could that ever end well?
I'll re-iterate. I think that if you simply ramp up fuel duty you will cause severe hardship to the less well-off, particularly in rural communities. I do think that we need to hugely restrict car usage, but I don't think that ramping fuel duty is a good way of doing it because of the economic problems it will cause.
Gribs
Even you can surely see there’s a massive difference between burning hydrocarbons and using them to reduce the need to burn more hydrocarbons? Both the good and bad thing about plastics is they last a really long time.
Absolutely but Just Stop Oil etc. can't or that's certainly not the message I and the general public see.
It's the same for solutions, we have had the anti-nuclear lobby nay-saying for decades when we could have been building power that isn't contributing to climate change.
Now the excuse is "it's too late" ... and unless things change it will still be "too late" in 5/10yrs
we’re just not implementing them
Exactly. And how do we get them implemented? Not by throwing soup at paintings. When I figure out what I can do to actually help (besides cutting my own consumption) then I will. But I am always thinking about it.
For now I think that the most important thing we need to get things moving in the UK is electoral reform. Fortunately this looks like happening to some extent. But it's not going to be anywhere near enough, it's just one tiny piece of the huge puzzle.
The problem is that the only mechanism we currently have to effect large scale change in the world is via capitalism and economics. No-one has any idea how to get people to do things that don't involve money - which is absolutely shit. So the only solution on a global scale is to somehow move away from buying and selling things that require physical resource extraction and manufacturing, and buy and sell stuff that doesn't - or at least, not much.
Ok so I thought I could see an issue with your proposal, and I brought it up.
1) the issue was only there because you did not read what I had written
2) you leapt straight into personal attack based on your not reading
I lost patience because we have been round and round this before. You really do not seem to get that western lifestyles need to change dramatically.
go back and reread
I won't be opening this thread again
I think that if you simply ramp up fuel duty you will cause severe hardship to the less well-off, particularly in rural communities
Once again - you completely missed the bit I said about using the money raised to mitigate these effects and that western lifestyles have to change
Oh I did miss this bit, you're right:
My idea of using ratcheting cost increases you completely ignore the ” use the money raised to support alternatives”
What alternatives? That's what I am interested in. How to mitigate the effects?
@molgrips - this is intellectual cowardice:
And how do we get them implemented? Not by throwing soup at paintings. When I figure out what I can do to actually help (besides cutting my own consumption) then I will. But I am always thinking about it.
It requires government action. The tried and tested way to make a government take action is protest - serious, hard protest.
Talking about crap on an internet forum is doing bugger all - and never ever will achieve anything.
Get off your arse and ACT.
XR, Just Stop Oil, Beans on the Mona Lisa, all of these protestors have done more to force this into the limelight than the IPCC - which was formed in nineteen eighty eight.
We have the solutions. Government knows what to do. But they're doing the opposite.
What are you doing about that? You're waffling about "electoral reform". - i.e. you're doing bugger all.
PROTEST.
(or do nothing, this whole thread is people making themselves feel good about doing nothing)
What are you doing about that?
Nothing, because I don't see those things as effective.
Is this thread about discussing solutions or about how shit I am?
XR, Just Stop Oil, Beans on the Mona Lisa, all of these protestors have done more to force this into the limelight than the IPCC
Beans on the Mona Lisa was in the news because it was a shocking stunt, not because of anything to do with climate. What do you think the average viewer thought when they saw that item? Did they think "oh wow, I must join the struggle and we can force the goverment to act!" or did they think "what a bunch of ****ing tree hugging tossers" ?
I don't think you can independently assess the impact of such actions. The IPCC is in the news quite a lot though. Arguably, the members of XR and Stop Oil probably joined because of the IPCC and other publicity.
Only government can progress the issue. But a Tory government never will as it's anathema.
I'm not saying I have the answers. I'm not saying I endorse the status quo. I'm not saying I know how to fix this, but I don't think you do either. Yes, campaigning helps keep the issues in the news but that's still pissing in the wind.
Once I figure out what can actually be done and a way I can actually start to achieve it, I might actually do it. But I'm not getting involved in criminal damage.
or do nothing, this whole thread is people making themselves feel good about doing nothing
Not me. I don't feel good about any of it. You could argue that going on marches and protests is simply a way to make people feel good and think they are doing something.
Molgrips
Well I was all interested in talking about solutions, maybe I’d be inspired to do see what I could do, but Chevychase and TJ have turned the thread into a shit slinging festival which has completely put me off.
Maybe go and glue yourself to a motorway or something, and leave the actual problem solving to others?
Accept compromises in terms of a wider "eco" or "green" agenda... then push for climate change initiatives at EVERY level and don't accept greenwashing.
If your local council try and do some greenwashing, especially when it's something that negatively affects climate change call them out and ask how this will affect climate change.
Do you think the silly girl in the video realises the irony that none of her clothes, safety equipment or phone to record this on would exist if it wasnt for oil production? I presume she walked there as to not increase her carbon footprint. Then there is the carbon emissions of the server farms that YouTube have to store all these videos. She is, like most of these protestor a hypocrite, not willing to practice what she preaches.
You could argue that going on marches and protests is simply a way to make people feel good and think they are doing something.
You could also argue that the marches are hugely damaging to the environment and that the last people taking part should be eco activists. Can you imagine what the carbon footprint of people travelling from wherever to attend, to make the banners, many using oil based paints and products. Then there is the environmental cost of organising, policing the event and the increase pollution caused by the general disruption the cause.
She is, like most of these protestor a hypocrite, not willing to practice what she preaches.
Not necessarily, and I don't think that kind of rhetoric is positive either. You can justify making a small negative impact to avoid a larger one later.
Plague or Putin pressing the button. 50% of the current population gone from the world is what we need. P**** ing the wind otherwise.
Not necessarily, and I don’t think that kind of rhetoric is positive either. You can justify making a small negative impact to avoid a larger one later.
what makes you think that this sort of action is going to make any difference to the outcome? Anyone who can do anything about it we’ll ignore her and, as you said, she will annoy and dissuade way more than she attracts to her point of view.
The old argument that it’s ok to cause some pollution now to support your argument is at best hollow. I presume you are ok with the farce that is cop27 where billions of tonnes of pollution will r caused by groups turning up to lobby for all sides of the argument.
So, the IPCC, the UN and all climate scientists say we need to leave most of the oil and gas we already know about in the ground yet the UK is licencing to open 100+ more wells in the North Sea (and despite what they say, we’re dirty extractors with low standards).
You might want to check the number of oil and gas licences issued by Biden's administration. i.e. more than previous administration if I can recall.
what makes you think that this sort of action is going to make any difference to the outcome?
I have no idea if it will. I just pointed out that is probably how it can be justified. It means she's not a hypocrite because she's doing what chevychase is demanding we do.
Honestly this kind of bickering is making everything worse not better.
The old argument that it’s ok to cause some pollution now to support your argument is at best hollow.
Less hollow than saying no-one who campaigns for the environment is allowed to consume anything. That's nonsensical. You can only start from where you are. If you discount every argument from anyone who has consumed anything non-renewable then you'll spend your time shooting down every single person who's trying to help, and even less will get done.
It's like building wind turbines. Each turbine uses loads of concrete and materials to build, but subsequently it actually saves resources overall.
But ultimately it makes no difference if she is a hypocrite or not. If post saying that humans are consuming too much from my unheated shed in the woods, I am no more or less correct than if I post it from my private jet on the way to COP27, am I? Obviously it's not a good look, but the message is the same. It's not about who's telling you and how they are telling you.
Less hollow than saying no-one who campaigns for the environment is allowed to consume anything. That’s nonsensical. You can only start from where you are
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that protesting about the one substance that without your protest would not be e possible is hypocritical. Presumably someone bought the rope and safety gear to perform the protest. If she is anti oil why is every garment we can see made from the stuff? Should she not be setting the example about how you can dress and live without consuming oil rather than telling everyone else they shouldn’t but it ok for her to
Cop27 is going to release billions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere!
Citation needed please.
Or did you just make it up to try to wrongly prove a point?
Yes, thousands of tons of extra co2 will be generated, but the world is round so everyone has to travel great distance to come together. Look each other in tje eye and say 'last year you declared you were going to do this, and actually you didn't'
You might want to check the number of oil and gas licences issued by Biden’s administration. i.e. more than previous administration if I can recall.
a) this is whatabouterry and b) if you've got a point to make about the number of licenses issued by Biden's administration it's on YOU to look it up. off you toddle.
Can't be bothered to look up the number of licenses (or if they have a chance of being productive) but Biden is releasing fuel from the federal stock piles to try and drive down the petrol price in the run up to the mid terms as inflation at 8% and rising energy prices are likely to cost him the election even if it isn't his fault.
All these people saying we have to act now otherwise billions will die. Well isn’t that just what’s needed?
If they really cared about the environment they’d be keeping a constant tyre fire going in the garden 🔥
@singletrackmind. According to the un 30,000 people are going plus media.
https://www.un.org/en/desa/cop27-what-you-need-know-about-year%E2%80%99s-big-un-climate-conference
Given there are about 200 world leaders and some from organisations like the un that leaves about 29,000 turning up who aren’t decision makers. So why do they need to be there? Have they not heard of video conferencing? Especially for simmering that is supposed to be saving the world
TBF Ed it's pretty nailed on he's going to loose at least one house but it's not the end of the world for Biden. he's used to making deals and he's had a decent run at it WRT having a free hand early in his term. anyway, we digress.
Molgrips
Not necessarily, and I don’t think that kind of rhetoric is positive either. You can justify making a small negative impact to avoid a larger one later.
I understand the moral case, public opinion doesn't agree though.
What percentage (do you think) of these trying to use the M25 have suddenly had a damascene moment and ditched their ICE vehicle vs those who went completely the other way?
Is this thread about discussing solutions or about how shit I am?
So what is the solution Just Stop Oil are actually proposing? (that's rhetoric)
Most importantly though for public perception is a single and consistent message and sadly that is exactly what is being diluted. Look at this at a tangent .. I think you'd agree most of the UK would be financially better off not under a Tory government YET they keep voting for them?
Without digging into WHY deeply (there are lots of threads on that) but essentially
a) they are misled into a easy to believe if you want to non-reality.
b) many were put off by Corbyn's fundamentalist stance / media portrayal
There are obviously other reasons ... (I'm sure you have some)
the issues here are
a) they are being deliberately misled into Eco/Green = Climate change so if they put things in the recycling or if they buy some bamboo socks then they just did their bit. They don't need to care if the things they out in the recycling are actually recycled OR for that matter if recycling is less CO2 efficient than not. Many even believe the more recycling they generate the better.. and they are constantly bombarded by adverts for "eco" or "green" that they associate with "climate change" that actually make it worse but as far as they are concerned they did their bit.
b) we have historically lumped all the green and eco stuff together... had it not been for the green lobby we would already be using extensive nuclear to back up wind/tide/solar and the green lobby still can't admit this
You speak of crap government and I don't disagree... but frankly they have all made the same sort of effort as the remain lobby did. Right now Japan is building next gen high temp gas reactors that are intrinsically safe against a meltdown and run at temperatures that will create near endless hydrogen as a byproduct and power heat dependent heavy industry directly without requiring electrical conversion to melt iron ore. India is developing (expensive) breeder reactors to convert spent fuel into more energy... but somehow the green movement is less worried about climate change than using nuclear power and wants to argue if nuclear is truly renewable instead of looking at the amount of greenhouse gases produced.
Starmer faced (and to an extent still does face) a huge battle over the perception of Corbyn. Only the complete and utter clusterf££ck of Truss really made any short term differences and there are still people saying we are still going to benefit from Brexit and let's not go there and we need to wait until things are really really shit before we even consider rejoining the single market. (In other words its a long game)
We don't have a long game in climate change unless we radically address the short term.
I don’t think that kind of rhetoric is positive either.
I find the whole "no nuclear under any circumstances" and spreading misinformation is utterly not useful.
I find conflating "green" and "eco" with climate change is utterly unproductive.
Do your own research on the Japanese and Indian reactors... do your research as to why Japan can build a reactor in 3 years..
What can YOU do?
Personally....? Very little ... you are more open that the average UK voter but you know we can't all live like ChevyChase and you can't sell it and if you stop and think you'll realise to do anything useful climate wise by living like that we have to reduce the world population drastically over the next 5-10 years.
If you want to scale up and have finances (or think tank backers) how about starting a reuse business to get rid of the fake recycling? I'm sure you also remember the glass bottles delivered on EV's...
If you want to reduce HUGE chunks of CO2 then challenge your local council's "green initiatives"
Ask for a net carbon for EVERY project they claim is green or eco and call them out.
Local rag coverage here:
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/woking-tower-block-13-storeys-23091283
And this is developed by "Eco World" - 37 stories of concrete and steel (knocking down a set of perfectly good low rise including the new fire station) and 141 Pages of the Environmental Statement (excluding appendices) don't mention CO2 once.
If you were involved preventing one such development that would probably be your entire lifetimes greenhouse emissions... though since they don't publish the figures that's simply a guess.
What can YOU do?
Personally….? Very little …
With a combination of solar PV and thermal and insulation I've been able to cut off the gas and reduce electricity to about the same as PV production - and that includes electricty for the car.
Minor changes in diet and consumer habits - more second hand and less tat.
Haven't flown for years.
Use the train and long distances busses for holidays.
Now if all those with their own homes did that the saving would be a few power stations.
Many even believe the more recycling they generate the better..
With a combination of solar PV and thermal and insulation I’ve been able to cut off the gas and reduce electricity to about the same as PV production – and that includes electricty for the car.
Minor changes in diet and consumer habits – more second hand and less tat.
Haven’t flown for years.
Use the train and long distances busses for holidays.
Now compare that to building a single 40 story skyscraper.... and plot your total carbon against the rest of the world
Now if all those with their own homes did that the saving would be a few power stations.
But they (the majority) won't unless they feel they have to and M. & Mme de Dum are chucking some stuff in the recycling and buying their bamboo t-shirt from China so as far as they are concerned "they are doing their bit".
Our council just put a green wall in... apparently they are "doing their bit". Shame they had to knock down a load of buildings then use millions of tons of concrete to put the green wall on. (Green wall on one side of one of the skyscrapers)
Very well said. My local council have just given the green business award to a company that has knocked down a 1960s shopping centre! The developer who was going to build a new one (INTU) went bust on the development so walked away. So now we have a flattened shopping centre with no idea what to do with the space or who will pay for whatever they do with the site and the company to knocked it down got a green business award!! Its bonkers.
chrismac
Very well said. My local council have just given the green business award to a company that has knocked down a 1960s shopping centre! The developer who was going to build a new one (INTU) went bust on the development so walked away. So now we have a flattened shopping centre with no idea what to do with the space or who will pay for whatever they do with the site and the company to knocked it down got a green business award!! Its bonkers.
Perfect example .... if you want to do something makes a real difference then stopping local councils doing needless and unwanted construction, especially CO2 intense concrete is going to make a much bigger difference.
We can try, but our options are very limited. The last time it was tried national government overruled the council and granted the permission anyway
Thats hardly a surprise. Its one of the many reasons I think the whole COP conferences are just a waste of carbon as nothing meaningful comes out of them that is going make any real difference. Yet 30,000 people have flown into Egypt to talk and lobby for their view
If it’s anything like last year, it all might be a waste of time:
Vs.
Props to the crew for braving the weather.
