I think I’m the opposite; I object to businesses that will refuse to take non-cash payments.
Me too. and assuming its a want, not a need, I'll happily forgo buying anything from them.
Of the various lunch options available to me at my office, I patronise pretty much exclusively the one which was the first to offer card payments. The last one to get a card machine - they held out for quite a while, so I would never go there - has apparently got one now. Too late, off my list, will never go there again.
Cashless transactions are a perfect tool to harvest data and behavioural information about individuals by banks, corporations and the government. So in the absence of cash, best hope that you agree with whichever government gets into power, and that your data is kept secure and is not used for nefarious reasons.
But hey, I guess that's the march of progress and in a world of over-sharing on social media, it seems that personal privacy is valued less and less these days.
Slowly but slowly, the pursuit of efficiency and safety at all costs (profits for large corporations - sold to us as convenience), over and above many of the little quirks that used to make life rich, spontaneous and enjoyable, and yes sometimes inefficient, continues.
Hence I will always try to use cash wherever possible. Use it or loose it as they say. And you might miss it when it's gone.
As has already been mentioned a few times, there's a significant segment of society that rely on cash.
Open Banking is starting to increase usage too (Pay by Bank, Pay with Bank, Payit etc), which is essentially a bank account to bank account transaction, cheaper than card txns,.moves instantly and doesn't involve any card details being shared.
There's a way to go before it's ready to properly compete with in person card txns, but there's already great use cases around bill payments, in app payments etc HMRC is probably the biggest user currently and the government is legislating quite heavily for UK banks to invest and drive competition for the card schemes.
Yes, bring it on. Cash is hassle to use and costs everyone to handle.
People seem to think that the current bank/card charges will remain exactly the same for the rest of time and it’ll be far too expensive for everyone at all points. That’s not the case and lower costs will be needed to allow a cashless society to go ahead. Charity boxes will have a contactless thing where you scan and donate £2 or whatever. Its not rocket science.
Same point for EVs, they will come down in price and only then will it be a game changer for society. Yet all the anti EV lot post that its too expensive and always will be so it’ll never work.
Same for renewable power, hydrogen generation etc.
Cashless transactions are a perfect tool to harvest data and behavioural information about individuals by banks, corporations and the government. So in the absence of cash, best hope that you agree with whichever government gets into power, and that your data is kept secure and is not used for nefarious reasons.
1) Assumes a nefarious government has the resources to bother looking at your bank account
2) Assumes that they don't already (they can if they want / have reason to)
3) Struggles to reconcile with the fact that affluent people tend to already be "cashless". Unless the government really needs to know what Chinese thecaptain is using, what exactly are they to worry about?
But hey, I guess that’s the march of progress and in a world of over-sharing on social media, it seems that personal privacy is valued less and less these days.
A fair point, but not really relevant. I "trust" facebook to show me crappy adds based on my predilection for cute dog videos. I trust my bank to not share my shopping habits and keep the 1's and 0's that represent my account secure. They're both pretty explicit in what they're upto with my data.
Slowly but slowly, the pursuit of efficiency and safety at all costs (profits for large corporations – sold to us as convenience), over and above many of the little quirks that used to make life rich, spontaneous and enjoyable, and yes sometimes inefficient, continues.
I drive a British car built in the 70's, I pay for the spare parts for it by card not cash.
One is an enjoyable novelty, the other is just a faff.
No one* has nostalgia for having to scrabble through the ashtray of change for the pay and display machine, or cutting their day short in a hurry because the meter was about to run out when we can now just tap in and out at the barrier.
Same with the London Underground, remember the faff of queuing for the ticket machines?
Busses with their "correct change only".
That awkward bit of the taxi journey where you paid with a fiver and paused for change because it wasn't quite payday and you weren't going to tip for his insights into the football results?
*this is the internet, someone will prove me wrong
the little quirks that used to make life rich, spontaneous and enjoyable, and yes sometimes inefficient, continues.<br /><br />
such as?
what have I missed out on?
Now, given the general anti authoritarian/governemnet attitude here I am surprised at the objections to cash. To my mind it is a way of stopping anyone knowing what I am buying and using that data for all sorts of purposes including targeted advertising. Tother thing is that cash is safer to lose. If I lose it all I lose is the few quid I carry. If I lose my card what a pain including dealing with the banks t claim back everything nicked with contact less buying. Also giving money away electronically is a pain. Not all of us on line bank.
Rarely take my actual card out now, risk of loss or pocket scanners in crowded places (not sure if that was ever true or just a rumour)
Apple pay (or the android equivilent) requiring fingerprint or face ID, far more secure.
+1.
I get really pissed off every month having to take money out for a haircut (very first world issue)
The emergency 20 quid in saddle bag for a cab thing though is very true. Cash in an emergency where your phone has died or whatever definitely is an issue. I've roleplayed the situation though and feel almost any passerby will let one make a phonecall for a cab, and the cab driver will wait at the door for you to go in and grab a bank card to pay with so in reality it's a safety net out of irrational worry.
Don't businesses have to pay to process cash, anyway? I do as a small business owner from reading the biz bank's spiel
Eventually coins and notes will die whatever. Like paying for things with goats and chickens died.
For the concerns about the poor, elderly, and potential to be tracked, just need a digital wallet card or gadget that tells you how much is in it, not linked to a bank account and can add/remove from it as easy as someone handing over cash.
Only issue is if you kept all your money in it and lost it. If you lose a tenner you still have the rest of your dosh under the bed.
To add security so only you can use it and can invalidate a lost card and restore it on another, requires an account and back to the tracking issues. Though a tin foil hat could be the answer.
Only places that I use that don't take any alternatives to cash;
- Chinese takeaway
- Haircut
- Window Cleaner
- (Very occasionally) dodgy cash wash places.
It's the Chinese takeaway that makes be laugh. There's about four locally and none take anything but cash, whereas every single other takeaway (5x Indian, 2x Thai, 2x chippie, 4x kebab, 2x pizza) all take cards. I'm sure that the first Chinese that starts to take anything other than cash will clean up, but they seem very stubborn.
I'm not seeing much empathy with those struggling with their budget due to poor mental health, poverty or a lack education here.
Cash is vitally important for this group and for that reason I'd make it illegal not to take cash.
No one* has nostalgia for having to scrabble through the ashtray of change for the pay and display machine, or cutting their day short in a hurry because the meter was about to run out when we can now just tap in and out at the barrier.
My heart sinks when I I drive into a car park and it’s a pay by app only car park! Because it’s never the app I already have installed. ☹️
I have an ashtray full of shrapnel.
HTH! 😃
Seems to different ideas threading through this …
”I want to do everything without cash”
(I’m onboard with that)
”I want everyone else to do likewise”
(which seems myopic to me)
I've been cashless for years, have a £20 in my phone case which I use maybe once or twice a year when we cycle to a random cafe whose card machine is down etc. That's pretty much it.
Good riddance is all I can say to cash.
Ah, just remembered P&D machines in the Lake District seem to still need coins in remote car parks.
I quite like cash but never use it.
A recent birthday saw me get cash. I gave to my wife for her Christmas do so they could split the bill. The same folk gave me monopoly money for Christmas and transferred the digital money. .
My heart sinks when I I drive into a car park and it’s a pay by app only car park! Because it’s never the app I already have installed. ☹️
Good news coming on that front - there's a national car parking scheme coming that will aggregate all of the apps, so you just choose your preferred partner.
I’ve not used cash for ages and have no real use for it. There are some proper tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists on here. Our government can’t do anything remotely efficiently. Anybody really think they are spying on us en masse?
I’d be more than happy for money to continue existing. As long as places take both options and the annoying bastards on eBay stop asking “How much for cash mate?”
It’s the Chinese takeaway that makes be laugh. There’s about four locally and none take anything but cash, whereas every single other takeaway (5x Indian, 2x Thai, 2x chippie, 4x kebab, 2x pizza) all take cards. I’m sure that the first Chinese that starts to take anything other than cash will clean up, but they seem very stubborn.
interesting, our local Chinese is the only place left that doesn’t (also I think the only local T/away with no online ordering option). Way back long before Covid it used to and then I think went through some ownership change and no longer did. I always assume it’s a tax dodge - but is it push back against the sort of invasion of privacy in China that comes from the gov monitoring every transaction? I was in China about 8 years ago and it was very hard to use cash.
Our government can’t do anything remotely efficiently. Anybody really think they are spying on us en masse?
Personally it's not the government that worries me. Purchase history and data is already a huge commodity in its self worth hundreds of billions. The value of the data that supermarkets gain from reward cards is massive and that's just one small sector. If 100% of our purchases are digital the data and spending habits that information gives is going to be worth a fair bit more.
Cashless transactions are a perfect tool to harvest data and behavioural information about individuals by banks, corporations and the government.
Only if the law changes. Companies are very much not allowed to collect, store or use this information unless you explicitly give your permission. And if you give your permission for data to be used for something, they are very breaking the law if they use it for something else. Companies do get fined for this in a big way.
Purchase history and data is already a huge commodity in its self worth hundreds of billions. The value of the data that supermarkets gain from reward cards is massive and that’s just one small sector. If 100% of our purchases are digital the data and spending habits that information gives is going to be worth a fair bit more.
How does it worry you? You have agreed to your personal data being used in this way in the T&Cs of these services. You did read the T&Cs, didn't you?
Why does that worry you?
– (Very occasionally) dodgy cash wash places.
An actual money laundering business, wow!
What Molgrips said.
The reason that the supermarkets get so much value from the data is that they know who are and you've allowed them to process your data, that's the value exchange you agree with them when you sign up for their loyalty scheme.
Data is king in all areas of life now (including this website) - if Tesco want to send me a voucher for 30% off something I’d buy anyway I’m fine with that.
Also helps them be more efficient in stocking stores with the right stuff at the right time.
You did read the T&Cs, didn’t you?
Of course not. And now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices) many people have no choice but to accept the use and sale of their data. It’s not really a choice for many.
I very rarely have cash, been the case for well before covid. Much easier to use a card, phone or watch.
And yes it does cost to pay cash into a bank for businesses, not only for paying it in but for the time taken to pay it in. There’s a big risk of staff adding a little to their pockets.
The bar I sometimes help out at installed a reader during covid, the takings since have been far higher as people have their card or phone with them but not always cash or much of it. The machine was paid outright around £100 iirc and the fees are small .
Last time I helped we took over £1k in a few hours, less than £150 of that wash cash. The fees for the remaining amount were less than £20. The cash is still in the safe as someone has to take it to the bank and pay it in.
No, we shouldn’t go totally cashless but it certainly doesn’t have to everywhere.
Interesting likewise around here it’s the Chinese restaurants who are cash only, lots of cafes are card only and are no dearer than those who accept both.
Gobuchul I pay into a personal TSB account and then transfer it to Chase.
Bet your bookkeeper loves you.
I’m not seeing much empathy with those struggling with their budget due to poor mental health, poverty or a lack education here.
Cash is vitally important for this group and for that reason I’d make it illegal not to take cash.
I think the word you were looking for was sympathy.
Why is cash any easier to manage than digital? Accounts offer pots already, it's not hard to have an account for money to get paid into and bills to come out and a separate one for spending money to go into.
Hell of a lot easier to spaff cash on the bookies/off licence than with a technical block in place.
And now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices)
Hmm, so Tesco are essentially paying you for your data. In a capitalist society you sell what commodities you have to sell, don't you? It's a bit like say, renting out a room in your house - you lose some privacy but gain some money.
The real problem isn't Tesco, or card payments, it's the fact that society lets people get poor enough to need to do this against their will.
That said - what actually happens to this data? We recently signed up to the Asda one which simply gives us a lot of cash back rather than the voucher dance you get with Tesco. I haven't seen a single Asda advert on any channel since we signed up, so they do not appear to be using it for targetted ads. They may not be using it for anything personal to me - it's possible that they would use it to optimise their own business.
Those with loyalty cards. You didn’t give them your real details, did you?
It is if you don’t have a fixed address I think.
That's an issue for sure but not one that's insurmountable.
Of course not. And now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices) many people have no choice but to accept the use and sale of their data. It’s not really a choice for many.
How many big supermarkets exist in isolation? Precious few I'd imagine.
That aside, clubcard prices are good old fashioned kidology, they're always for premium goods and can always be found cheaper elsewhere if there's not already a decent alternative. It's straight out the DFS playbook.
Club card and Nectar card prices are now on staples.
Cashless transactions are a perfect tool to harvest data and behavioural information about individuals by banks, corporations and the government. So in the absence of cash, best hope that you agree with whichever government gets into power, and that your data is kept secure and is not used for nefarious reasons.
With a side order of what Mols said,
Such as?
I bought a vegan sausage roll from Greggs last week. For what nefarious reasons would you suggest that a hostile government might use that data, should I be fearing a visit from Big Pork?
To my mind it is a way of stopping anyone knowing what I am buying and using that data for all sorts of purposes including targeted advertising.
You're going to be advertised at. Fact. Would you rather see adverts for things you're interested in, or things you aren't?
Tother thing is that cash is safer to lose. If I lose it all I lose is the few quid I carry. If I lose my card what a pain including dealing with the banks t claim back everything nicked with contact less buying.
No, it's the opposite. If you lose cash, it's 100% gone before it's hit the ground. If you lose your card then the bank will refund fraudulent transactions.
now that you’re now effectively charged for opting out (club card prices) many people have no choice but to accept the use and sale of their data. It’s not really a choice for many.
Well, yes and no.
I've seen this specifically with Clubcard for a long time though I don't doubt that other large retailers are pulling the same trick. I've always refused a Nectar card because the rewards were crap but Sainsburys has recently gone the same route. The Clubcard/Nectar card price is the normal price, the non-card price is hugely inflated.
But here we are. This is absolutely the choice. You pay a premium for corner-shop convenience or you go to the big chains. If you go to the hugely-discounted-over-the-high-street chains then the cost instead of Idleness Tax is the store card which they can later use to send you vouchers for things you might actually buy.
Your perceived lack of choice is that you don't want to pay full price for things but also don't want to countenance any alternative. It's the STW subscribe / adverts / ad blocker argument in different pants, isn't it. Bottom line is, you can't have it both ways and then cry when suppliers go pop.
I always carry cash and am indifferent about whether I pay cash or card.
As for any 'loyalty' cards/schemes - not for me; massive data collection programmes dressed up as a customer benefit.
Only for mugs.
As for any ‘loyalty’ cards/schemes – not for me; massive data collection programmes dressed up as a customer benefit.
Only for mugs.
You're already balls deep in metadata unless you're amish or a hermit. Drop in the ocean at this point.
This is absolutely the choice.
Our local "corner-shop convenience" is also owned by Sainsburys.
"Choice" isn't really a choice when you can't afford to pay more to avoid being tracked. So most people are tracked. They don't want to be, they're not really "opting in", they are just having to accept the situation. It's not really choice. Well, it might be for the well off.
This may well be true, but it's still a choice even if it's Hobson's. The alternative scenario if we removed Clubcard et al is not "yay, no more tracking," it's that everyone now pays more. Good news for local business perhaps, a bad day for those very consumers you say can't afford to pay two quid for a can of baked beans.
This place is afloat because of some people subscribing and others being served adverts. Say Mark turns off advertising tomorrow, what do you suppose would happen? I'd guess either a) subs prices would have to double, or b) the site would go pop.
I don't want to be tracked. I also don't want to pay £25 for an £18 slab of beer. Which do I not want the most?
As for any ‘loyalty’ cards/schemes – not for me; massive data collection programmes dressed up as a customer benefit.
Only for mugs.
Dressed up? What do you mean? We get a £50 off our shopping at Asda every few months for letting them know what we buy at the shop. I think this is a fair trade, personally. Or put it the other way round, I don't fancy paying £50 every few months just to keep the contents of my basket private. There are things to be concerned about in the modern world, but I don't think this is one of them, for me. I don't think I'm being a mug here?
If you're paying with a card they pretty much have the data on you anyway. You're a mug if you don't sign up
The alternative scenario if we removed Clubcard et al is not “yay, no more tracking,” it’s that everyone now pays more.
Nah, the non-club/nectar card prices on staple food items are now totally artificial, it's a charge to stop people opting out. People don't buy at those prices. Everyone just accepts the tracking to avoid the charge.
If you’re paying with a card they pretty much have the data on you anyway
No, they don't. They can't use the card id to link together your visits and profile you. It's not legal. They won't even store any card id themselves.
Nah, the non-club/nectar card prices on staple food items are now totally artificial, it’s a charge to stop people opting out. People don’t buy at those prices. Everyone just accepts the tracking to avoid the charge
I don't think Asda do special club-card pricing like this. You just get a voucher every so often if you scan your card - a bit like the Co-Op.
