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Should UK go cashle...
 

Should UK go cashless?

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Even the Co-op now do “member prices” on standard food items.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 2:12 am
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Another lockdown in a cashless UK? Can you imagine the restrictions then? The last lot of restrictions were way OTT and unjustified at the expense of peoples health jobs and livelihoods etc etc.

What happens when a rogue government gets into power like we have now? Do you trust that lot or any politician? If your answer to that is yes then you need sectioning.

Sez the obvious QNut is obvious. *rollseyes*

Go and play in the road, why don’t you.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 3:48 am
funkmasterp, stumpyjon, Watty and 3 people reacted
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It must be terrible for people on the streets for instance, they’ve been hearing “sorry mate, I don’t have any change” forever but these days there’s a high chance that it’s likely true.

In my case, the only time I’ve had loose change in the last few months has been in the last week or so, when I mugged the ATM for some notes to stick in my brother’s Christmas card, as he’d rather have cash than a present, and I bought a kebab on my way home, and they only take cash. After I chucked the small stuff left from a tenner in the tip bucket I’ve got a £2 coin. That’ll go in the plastic chewing gum pot I keep in the car for whatever shrapnel I collect just in case I need some for parking purposes.
And yes, I know most car parks have contactless, but many don’t, and street parking now has meters that either require some random app, or a QR code that takes you to the parking company. Allegedly.
Around Bristol and a few other places, there are bogus QR code stickers being put on the machines which take you to a bogus payment site, which then has your payment information…

That’s not a conspiracy theory, warnings have been put out on BBC Points West news, and I wondered how long that would take.

Maybe they’ll do the sensible thing and put proper contactless pads on the machines, instead of something that’s so very easy to be messed around with.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 4:04 am
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Local Waitrose got stung last year with £50 notes. I’m probably more diligent than a Saturday girl on minimum wage.<br /><br />

When Joey worked in B&M along the road, the till staff were specifically instructed not to accept £50 notes. There was a spate of scruffy kids coming into the store wanting to buy a tenners worth of stuff and offering a £50 note, sometimes they might have a scruffy looking adult, usually a woman with them, also with a basket with a few odds and ends in, and also offering a £50 note.
I think I’ve only ever had a single £50 note in my entire life, yet these people seemed to be rolling in them…
Not sure who they were, but there’s a traveller site about a mile outside of town…

Apart from the kebab guys, the chippy just along the road only accepts cash, but if I go a bit further away, the other chippies take cards and are cheaper. 🤷🏼

Oh, and my tattooist only accepts cash, but all the artists rent a space, so it’s just easier for them.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 4:27 am
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No, they don’t. They can’t use the card id to link together your visits and profile you. It’s not legal. They won’t even store any card id themselves.

Whilst they won't store card details they can create a token that will track your card. They can't tie it back to you and use it to identify you and it does rely on you using the same card every time you shop, but it does fill in some of the picture.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 8:26 am
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Whilst they won’t store card details they can create a token that will track your card. They can’t tie it back to you and use it to identify you and it does rely on you using the same card every time you shop, but it does fill in some of the picture.

No, the worst case in that scenario is that they link transactions to a card (and even doing that is questionable under the principle of data minimisation - how does a retailer justify the need to keep this information?). Getting from a card to you as an individual would need your bank to be sharing your personal details with the retailer.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 8:54 am
kelvin and kelvin reacted
 5lab
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even doing that is questionable under the principle of data minimisation – how does a retailer justify the need to keep this information?).

There is no need for data minimisation. No personal data has been stored if the card number has been tokenised, so the shop can store whatever they like.

Getting from a card to you as an individual would need your bank to be sharing your personal details with the retailer.

The shop doesn't need your personal information, they don't don't anything useful with the pii in a loyalty scheme if you turn off spam. All they use the data for is to allow them to build pictures of customers shopping behaviours, which is completely legal.

Google even track your offline credit card purchases against online ads


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 9:02 am
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Getting from a card to you as an individual would need your bank to be sharing your personal details with the retailer.

That's what I said. They can't tie it back to you and use it to identify you. Pretty much every large retailer is doing this to build a picture of customer spending habits. What they can't do is identify you, that's what the loyalty ID is for, that's the bit that enables them (with your agreement) to tie the txns back to you, whichever card/payment type you're using and as long as you identify yourself on every txn.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 9:23 am
 IHN
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I'm happy to use, and keep using, both.

A £5 note will always be worth £5.

Each time a cashless transfer is made, someone somewhere is paying for that service. So, the value of the transferred money is slightly less once the transfer is complete.

We also have to accept that the banks and government will have a greater level of control over who and when and how transfers are made. 


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 9:44 am
topper, cardo and cardo reacted
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Should UK go cashless?

Will there be a choice ?


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 9:44 am
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Google even track your offline credit card purchases against online ads

How?

Each time a cashless transfer is made, someone somewhere is paying for that service. So, the value of the transferred money is slightly less once the transfer is complete.

There are transaction costs, retailer margins, and more importantly taxes, however you pay.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 9:49 am
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No personal data has been stored if the card number has been tokenised, so the shop can store whatever they like

If the card token was being used to identify an individual then it would fall under the same category as a user ID or customer number.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 9:50 am
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All this "being tracked" tinfoil stuff, cashless and only using cash occasionally are not the same are they?

Don't like cash, like the convenience of my watch and phone being available with me almost all the time.

But ASDA won't take my watch/phone payments and I have to use my card. I have only been to ASDA twice last year and failed at checkout both times. Cash would have saved the embarrassment at the till.

And my son checks my pockets for money, but now he asks for all his money to be paid into his Go Henry. I have two bags of coins (over £100) from his dodgy bubblegum mobile school shop.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:04 am
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If the card token was being used to identify an individual then it would fall under the same category as a user ID or customer number.

It's not though, there's nothing personally identifiable in the token that would enable me to tie it back to an individual without a loyalty or customer ID.  The token's being used to identify the card without the need to store sensitive card information.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:17 am
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I don’t want to be tracked. I also don’t want to pay £25 for an £18 slab of beer. Which do I not want the most?

I buy the beer elsewhere.  Clubcard pricing should be treated as what it is. A fine on not registering with Tesco - not a discount.

So far nearly everything I need is possible without dual pricing. Dual priced goods stay on the shelf.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:17 am
kelvin and kelvin reacted
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I think certain shops should have to accept cash. Big supermarkets, pharmacies, fuel stations etc

Far too many people are not ready for cashless.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:19 am
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I also don't believe that there is not the potential for our whole electronic banking system to just go pop. I am not the only person I know who extracted a good chunk of cash when covid hit. Just in case.. Lost nothing by it .


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:22 am
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I think certain shops should have to accept cash. Big supermarkets, pharmacies, fuel stations etc

I often wonder how the law would see this.

If I went into a shop that was 'card only' - went to the checkout with £50s worth of stuff, and plonked £50 in notes on the counter - could they legally refuse the cash? And if I walked out with the goods would they count that as shoplifting? Even though payment with legal tender had been made.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:27 am
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I often wonder how the law would see this.

There's no legal obligation for a shop to take cash, as long as they're not doing it on a discriminatory basis.  I.e. I'm not accepting cash from you because of your race/gender/hair colour


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:31 am
kelvin and kelvin reacted
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If I went into a shop that was ‘card only’ – went to the checkout with £50s worth of stuff, and plonked £50 in notes on the counter – could they legally refuse the cash? And if I walked out with the goods would they count that as shoplifting? Even though payment with legal tender had been made.

Legal tender doesn't mean what you think it does.

When a shop displays goods with a price it is "an invitation to treat", the shop can refuse to sell you the goods when you take them to the till, without giving you a reason. They can also offer to sell them to you but at an increased price.

And yes that would be shoplifting.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:35 am
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I think fuel on the forecourt might be a grey area for cash as it's creating a debt or something so legal tender has to be accepted


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:38 am
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do the cashless voters not have multiple bank accounts and credit cards, why anyone would risk just one debit and or one credit card is beyond me. its like carrying your total cash in one pocket, rather than splitting it up and keeping some at home..


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 10:59 am
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do the cashless voters not have multiple bank accounts and credit cards, why anyone would risk just one debit and or one credit card is beyond me. its like carrying your total cash in one pocket, rather than splitting it up and keeping some at home..

Yes.

Debit card - like carrying the entire shoebox of money stored under the mattress, but practical, secure and insured.
Joint account debit card - another shoebox of cash.
Savings account card - the stuff stuffed in the mattress.
Credit card - cash that doesn't even really exist until next month.

All taking up less space in my pocket than a folded £20 note.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 11:16 am
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Isn't cash the bigger risk? Your only fallback is any insurance you have.

With digital banking, there's a chance you get the money back after fraud, you can cancel a card or payment method if it's stolen etc.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 11:18 am
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I wouldn't be able to buy a post ride Kebab, and for that reason alone "i'm out"


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 11:21 am
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If I lose my debit card that's not the same as losing cash. I can block the card immediately with the app on my phone so my cash is secure.  Even if someone found my card they would only be able to spend £80 I think at a time, and I'd get notified if they did so my exposure is limited.  If I carried around all my cash in a bag and dropped it, it'd be gone.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 11:37 am
 5lab
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Even if someone found my card they would only be able to spend £80 I think at a time, and I’d get notified if they did so my exposure is limited

I'm pretty sure that if you notified the bank in a reasonable timeframe you'd get all of that back (so long as they weren't pin transactions which would indicate you'd been complicit)


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 11:47 am
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A lot of the comments above seem to envisage an only cash or only cards scenario, surely the point being that a combo of both is a good thing & for that reason UK shouldn't go cashless.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 11:49 am
kelvin and kelvin reacted
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It may almost happen naturally.   I think I read somewhere the use of cash has gone from 50% of all transactions to 15% in 10 years.  I don't think cash will be going anywhere soon, but it's use will continue to drop off I think.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 12:00 pm
kelvin and kelvin reacted
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I think the points made about vulnerable people being excluded from many banking services are very good ones. Because forcing everyone to use such services discriminates against such vulnerable and excluded people. so good reason to keep cash for a good while yet. Of course; if we treated everyone properly, and considered all their individual needs, we wouldn't have such concerns, but we don't live in such a nice world. Instead, we live in one where control of all transactions is desired by an elite few, who of course profit massively from this. The argument about such control of transactions preventing crime is pretty weak when put in context of the true effects of greater global capitalism; we are seeing horrific wars being prolonged by those with a vested interest in profiting from them, and irreparable environmental destruction occurring on a daily basis in the name of consumerism, so on a moral level, global drugs trade networks are a drop in the ocean in comparison.

My mum couldn't cope with any form of modern technology, so things like debit cards and online payments etc were utterly terrifying to her. She'd toddle off to the local bank branch to withdraw hundreds of pounds in cash at a time. She'd then use this for all her shopping, paying bills at the post office, paying her carer, cabs etc. Yes of course all this would have been easier had she used electronic services more, but it gave her peace of mind to be able to physically control a transaction. Removing this option would have impacted very negatively on her mental health. So when some people talk about removing cash altogether being more convenient for them, I'd like to remind you that it's very important to consider all people in society, and not just yourself.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 1:14 pm
Murray and Murray reacted
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To counter the above, my elderly dad with dementia is much happier using a contactless debit card than managing cash himself. Also much easier to monitor by me.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 1:27 pm
oldtennisshoes, ayjaydoubleyou, kelvin and 3 people reacted
 5lab
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whilst that may be so, no-one cried about cheques being removed as a method of payment in nearly all scenarios. I worked on a checkout at a supermarket 20 years ago and we'd get about 1-in-20 people paying with cheque. I suspect a decade before that it was much higher.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 1:28 pm
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To counter the above, my elderly dad with dementia is much happier using a contactless debit card than managing cash himself. Also much easier to monitor by me

That's great, but:

I’d like to remind you that it’s very important to consider all people in society, and not just yourself.

I think it's very important to enable all people to have agency for themselves as much as possible. Having cash helped my mum in this way, and does so for many others. Having the actual money to count out, so see how much she'd spend, how much change she had, gave her a peace of mind she would not have had from 'invisible' online/electronic transactions. This helped massively with her anxiety and mental health. It was a pain in the bum for me at times but then; it wasn't about me.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 1:47 pm
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I was thinking of the people caring for the vulnerable people. But agreed, there will be many situations where people use cash.

I can't see it going. Which removes one of the benefits of digital currency, so can't see that happening either.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 1:53 pm
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surely the point being that a combo of both is a good thing & for that reason UK shouldn’t go cashless.

This pretty much sums it up, anyone that wants to stop using cash now is free to do so as it stands, seems some people want to ban other's from using cash because they personally don't want to. Businesses should ( and do) have the option of whether they accept cash or not and we are all free to choose where and how to spend our money. Choice is the answer, not getting rid of cash altogether


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 1:57 pm
topper, kelvin and kelvin reacted
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I worked on a checkout at a supermarket 20 years ago and we’d get about 1-in-20 people paying with cheque.

That feels remarkably high. Are you sure?

I don't remember the last time I saw a cheque in the wild at all, let alone an incidence of one in 20. It's surely a lot longer than 20 years ago, 30 or 40 perhaps. Debit cards were introduced in 1987, the concept of a Cheque Guarantee Card was abolished in 2011.

No-one complained about cheques going away because they never went away, they just became obsolete for regular transactions.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 2:00 pm
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seems some people want to ban other’s from using cash because they personally don’t want to

I understand, although don't necessarily agree with the edge cases that have been made, but using cash costs us as tax payers money which may be better spent elsewhere. So I do want to see cash phased out if alternatives for those folk where there are perceived benefits can be provided.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 2:08 pm
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This pretty much sums it up, anyone that wants to stop using cash now is free to do so as it stands, seems some people want to ban other’s from using cash because they personally don’t want to

Choice is the answer, not getting rid of cash altogether

You get it with wheel size, gearing, media platforms, games consoles, anything! Trying to cancel other peoples choice to bolster superiority complexes and vested interests, pathetic isn't it.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 2:09 pm
Dickyboy, kelvin, Dickyboy and 1 people reacted
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Something else just occurred to me.

Is not having a register full of cash going to have a positive impact on crime rates?


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 2:22 pm
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Is not having a register full of cash going to have a positive impact on crime rates?

People are just walking in and taking stuff off the shelves now - far easier than robbing a till.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 2:24 pm
kelvin and kelvin reacted
 Drac
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People are just walking in and taking stuff off the shelves now – far easier than robbing a till.

That’s not a new concept. 


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 2:44 pm
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Yeah, I guess I've watched too many fly-on-the-wall cop shows on TV.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 3:14 pm
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I agree with the Pothead. I don't use cash. I don't understand why people aren't perfectly happy for others to keep doing so. Just don't make me pay cash, and I'm sorted... let everyone else manage their money however they see fit.

Hang on... if I still smoked (stopped completely as we entered the year 2000) then I'd have a use for cash myself... hmm...


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 3:48 pm
funkmasterp reacted
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Cash isn't going anywhere. There's still 8m people in the UK dependent on it and it accounts for a higher proportion of payment volumes than credit cards (not just retail POS but paying your plumber, your window cleaner, Kevin's cigarette dealer...)

There's a huge concern that as digital services are more widely adopted (physical cards will disappear eventually), those that struggle with access to those digital services become increasingly shut out. The govt will legislate to protect the use of cash.


 
Posted : 04/01/2024 4:13 pm
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