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Marr was highly enjoyable this morning. Fallon didn't have a leg to stand on and he knew it. He does though seem to have a masochistic love of being monstered on live tv.
Corbyn displayed a new authority and confidence I've never seen before. He's looking quite prime ministerial in fact 🙂
i think the only way he could do it and pull it off would be to go for referendum 2.
I think he has the ego to take the job and the lack of moral fortitude to then kill Brexit dead as well by saying well i tried but we could not get a good deal and this deal is better than no deal or some such
Despite all the Brexit must be honoured I do not think it would win if there was a ref now on the issue and it was won on a pack of lies that we all know wont be happening
Member
Marr was highly enjoyable this morning. Fallon didn't have a leg to stand on and he knew it. He does though seem to have a masochistic love of being monstered on live tv.Corbyn displayed a new authority and confidence I've never seen before. He's looking quite prime ministerial in fact
+1
He was incredibly relaxed and ready for the next phase
And
I spoken to a few conservative supporters since Thursday. They still hold the view like some on here it was just a protest vote and once they get the right leader it'll be business as usual.
I think they've underestimated who swung this election.
Exactly.
IDS on Peinaar (Radio 4) at the mo:
The electorate were too stupid to understand the policies, it was just a protest vote, nothing needs to change.
Arrogant man.
Sounds like he's now left the studio before Mark Steele gets stuck into him... coward.
Seeing a few similar comments reported over that last couple of days. Not sure telling a more youthful voting body that they're too stupid to understand things will go down well...
Boris now backing Theresa '100%'.
So, let her get her hands dirty with the DUP then dump her once agreement in place?
Tis the Tory way.....
i've never been so intrigued by politics.
The more soap opera it gets, the more people will start following it. This would be pretty good for democracy IMO. And probably good for Corbyn. See the post-election Suvation poll.
Tories will be running scared of another election, desperate to hang on. But the more they hang on, the worse the eventual outcome will be for them.
ot sure telling a more youthful voting body that they're too stupid to understand things will go down well...
Indeed. Too stupid to understand why they should maintain the status quo where they have nothing but debt, zero hours contracts and insecurity.
If you don't have anything to lose, why not vote for a change.
[quote=jam bo ]ot sure telling a more youthful voting body that they're too stupid to understand things will go down well...
Indeed. Too stupid to understand why they should maintain the status quo where they have nothing but debt, zero hours contracts and insecurity.
If you don't have anything to lose, why not vote for a change.
I seem to remember EXACTLY the same argument being bandied about when all the working class heroes voted for Bresit last year.
Yep. And the brexiteers exploited it. Now it's come back and bitten them.
There are a lot of very smart, highly motivated kids in this country and it's very heartening to see them starting to realise they can control their own destiny.
They should have all the same opportunities that the boomers and gen xs had.
Imagine if Corbyn had done the things that TM has done. The RW press would be going nuts.
same way as if Hilary had got fewer votes that Trump and had links to russia who helped her win they would be going ape.
Its not really a surprise to see that self interest is the defining principle of the right wing and everything else [ including honesty and the country] is a long way after that.
They should have all the same opportunities that the boomers and gen xs had.
Times have changed and the country is in a mess. I fear the best the youth can hope for now is to deliver those same opportunities to their children or grandchildren... Not sure that any party saying this is a vote winner. No magic money tree, no instant change just a hard grind for years.
Trouble is it not like the recent past with a devastating war that caused the hardship we managed to do it to ourselves
no instant change just a hard grind for years
Most people know this I reckon - but we would welcome hard grind for the benefit of each other, if it could be portrayed this way.
i think if we are all init together then we acyually all have to be in it together
It personally fills me with shame that my kids will face a harder time than I did
problem is my parents generation are tied to the fact that they paid for what they are getting and thy deserved it when the reality is they rode the property bubble, got free education, free employment and then earning relate pensions that they did not pay enough to cover and they passed the bill on to us to pay more and get less
The elderly/pensioners then wrapped it all up in an EU exit to make sure we were all royally ****ed by those who had received the most whilst making sure their pensions were still triple locked
Still lets remember what we need is for the rich - the uber rich in particular to stop being enabled to avoid tax
People don't mind working hard and making sacrifices if there is a positive outcome at the end of it.
Taking the hit just to see the benefits passed on to the corporate sector and the most well off eventually sticks in the throat.
I think the electorate, especially the younger element are realising that they've been had.
You can fool some people some of the time etc.....
I agree most people understand it will take time but it is not a vote winner to say they.
No party will (or perhaps can) assign a budget outside of the final year of their term. So unless a coherent effort is made from the get go anything that is attempted seems to be tinkering over a couple of years.
Look at the insistence that the EU UK situation can be unraveled in two years when a basic trade deal normally takes 2-5 times as long. Then we spend the first few months of the time dicking around not getting on with the job.
There are enough votes on all sides that like the idea of an instant change for the better that they vote for the sound bites. Telling people you will reduce their debt and make services better will always be popular. If you follow it with the caveat that once implemented this won't be the case for 10 years and you will have to work like stink for less to make it happen those votes float away.
Gideon trying so hard to suppress a grin
[quote=Rusty Spanner ]Boris now backing Theresa '100%'.
Oh dear - he is planning a bid then?
Wouldn't the Conservatives be better off at this stage just letting Corbyn have a go at running the country?
Wait for Labour to be destroyed by the poisoned chalice of Brexit, and then come in again with a fresh young leader(*) who can appeal to all those new young voters, who by then will be a little bit disillusioned by Corbyn's inevitable failures and mistakes?
(*) i.e. not BoJo or that awful Gove man.
its one of those and it was a good election to loose
The numbers are just not there for Corbyn so the choices were this or another election for the tories
I am not sure which is the least worst option for them tbh
I assume they think a "period of stability*" is the best option
* which means enough time to get a new leader with different policies and then an election
Wouldn't the Conservatives be better off at this stage just letting Corbyn have a go at running the country?
it's not in their makeup to concede power, what if he canceled brexit, the daily fail would implode 🙂
Sometimes the only way to win is not to play.
ok Joshua 😉 how about a nice game of chess
Front page of the Telegraph is hilarious today, they've got their 8 tl;drs from their political commentators, everyone else is doom and gloom, Rees-Mogg says "This is a tacit approval of May's brexit strategy" and IDS says "She's the best person to deliver stability" 😆
Great to hear on the World at One the 1922 Committee give full support to Maybot..
Which means she'll be out before the end of June.
if corbyn's policies had really chimed with the electorate he'd be measuring up no. 10 for curtains right now.
I think it's worth reflecting on where he has come from in terms of campaigning in no time at all.
It's a staggering underdog story.
To actually win might take a wee bit longer.
I think it's reflecting on where he has come from in terms of campaigning in no time at all.
It's a staggering underdog story.
To actually win might take a wee bit longer
Aye this is basically the first Rocky movie.
JC playing Rocky, plucked from obscurity, viewed as a bum, with the champ, Apollo Creed played by May, expected to blast JC out with ease.
All JC wanted to do was go the distance with the champ, which he did, but now he can taste victory and he's going for the win in Rocky II, somewhere in the next few months.
Personally I can't wait to see BoJo as Clubber Lang and Rees Mogg as Ivan Drago
JC's sunday jog 😉
JC playing Rocky, plucked from obscurity, viewed as a bum, with the champ, Apollo Creed played by May, expected to blast JC out with ease.
🙂
Great sign off from JC this morning - "Look at me I've got youth on my side!".
Who's the drunk Burt Young?
Wasn't the other comment from the 1922 committee ( I paraphrase ) 'accept may and the dup or we'll have another election'?
Like a teacher - 'it's not my time you're wasting' 😆
Cabinet Nonshuffle going on at the moment. Have we ever had a weaker PM ?
OK, if we're doing music now...Theresa May on Friday morning.
The final act happens quite soon I suspect.
Indeed. Too stupid to understand why they should maintain the status quo where they have nothing but debt, zero hours contracts and insecurity.
All of those are because of the EU, obvs.
If you don't have anything to lose, why not vote for a change.
Totally agreed. But there's plenty of other ways to change rather than "I don't like my house, let's set it on fire."
I'd have thought that the first party leader to actually address people's concerns and provide sound solutions to put our own house in order would smash an election. I don't really understand why it's not being shouted from the rooftops.
Corbyn's £11bn student loan "gibe away" was cruicial imo. It's a policy which benefits the middle class and will leave todays students having via their taxes to support a huge national debt but hey ho they are not worried about that right now.
I'm of age to have benefitted from not having to pay fees and receiving a grant for my degree education. I haven't pulled up the ladder since, I firmly believe and always have, that if a country wants educated people it should pay for them. There is a caveat which is we don't need 50% of the population educated to degree level merely to occupy desk space in call centres.
Oh look Gove is back as environment secretary. Let's watch him **** that uo too.
There is a caveat which is we don't need 50% of the population educated to degree level merely to occupy desk space in call centres.
Tony's idea that everyone should be able to go to university was ****ing insane. Everyone who is bright should go, but dubious qualifications just for the sake of it have no value.
[url= http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/3002363 ]Gove opposed the teaching of the science behind climate change in schools. [/url]
"Education Secretary Michael Gove has for several years been campaigning for climate change to be removed from the national curriculum for under 14-year-olds in the subject of geography. This has now moved forward and has officially been proposed by Gove’s department which has opened a consultation period on the issue."
Gove's voting record on environmental issues is chequered, at best:
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11858/michael_gove/surrey_heath/divisions?policy=1030
Including, voting to sell off the UK's forests..
Plus, his photo on the web page makes him look like a ventriloquist's dummy 
It's a policy which benefits the middle class
Explain that....?
Tony's idea that everyone should be able to go to university was **** insane. Everyone who is bright should go, but dubious qualifications just for the sake of it have no value.
The problem is that as university became the chosen path, vocational training fell to the bottom of everyone's interest list, college are either conveyor belts to uni or nothing. Apprenticeship are unloved the vision of the UK as a service economy is an easy enough trap to fall into from the Westminster bubble with the city distorting all.
Free uni took the limelight but the labour manifestos National Education Service had a big chunk about apprenticeships including maintenance grants for those in non uni FE
http://feweek.co.uk/2017/05/16/labour-manifesto-plans-for-fe-and-skills-unveiled/
[url= http://feweek.co.uk/2017/05/19/conservatives-continue-to-peddle-a-lie/ ]The Tory manifesto repeated the same pledge it had grossly missed last time to get 3m young people into apprenticeships[/url] and make it easier for employers to use the apprentice levy 'creatively'...
http://feweek.co.uk/2017/05/18/breaking-conservative-manifesto-pledges-for-fe-and-skills-published/
and will leave todays students having via their taxes to support a huge national debt
This is the correct way around.
^^ hasn't worked in Greece has it ?
Michael Gove is back.
Jeremy hunt still health secretary, its like she's angry at the electorate.....
Jam, explain why free tuition benefits the middle class please.
If anything, high tuition fees benefit the middle and upper classes, which is good for the Tories as it stops the "horrible poor" from getting into positions of power and influence
Excellent summary here
Yep that's a very eloquent and perceptive analysis of exactly how hard we have ****ed ourselves.
Well not necessarily, kids from unstable (often poor) back grounds dont get to do A Levels whilst Middle class kids have stable homes, laptops, good internet and tutors if needed so get shoe horned in regardless of ability.
The only way it would work is to limit places, possibly by making qualification more difficult and them in some way smooth out the run up regardless of family background.
Well not necessarily, kids from unstable (often poor) back grounds dont get to do A Levels whilst Middle class kids have stable homes, laptops, good internet and tutors if needed so get shoe horned in regardless of ability.
Even if that's true, it's no reason to remove the option.
[sarcasm] Hey, why don't we remove all kids from unstable backgrounds from the education system completely? That'll free up some resources. [sarcasm]
Pretty sure this is a how Johnson greeted Goves return too
"Education Secretary Michael Gove has for several years been campaigning for climate change to be removed from the national curriculum for under 14-year-olds in the subject of geography. This has now moved forward and has officially been proposed by Gove’s department which has opened a consultation period on the issue."
He proposed moving it to the science curriculum, probably the best place for it as we need scientists to help sort out the problem
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/climate-change-in-the-draft-national-curriculum
@slowoldman me too, my parents both worked and I got a full maintainence grant. I haven't pulled up the drawbridge either and worked 25 years in fortunately well paid paye jobs. However that was in a time of largely 40% tax, once it went to 50 I left. If I had my time again I would not work in paye employment where you are a sitting duck. This is the fundamental difficulty with the study now pay later model, there is no certainty you'll get the money back.
Well not necessarily, kids from unstable (often poor) back grounds dont get to do A Levels
What?
It may be the case that kids of drug addicted/alcoholic/gambling addict/other negative stereotype might not make it to A-level, but that's a pretty crap argument against tuition fees.
There are large numbers of bright kids from stable but non-affluent backgrounds who could go to university. They are more likely to be put off by the cost of tuition fees. Middle class parents can help their kids out when things get tough, that's less likely to be an option for poorer ones.
Not that tuition fee debt repayment is as much of a burden as people make out. But I'm still in favour of not having it in the first place.
You sound like you regret not pulling up the drawbridge earlier. Was that your point?I haven't pulled up the drawbridge either and worked 25 years in fortunately well paid paye jobs. However that was in a time of largely 40% tax, once it went to 50 I left. If I had my time again I would not work in paye employment where you are a sitting duck.
If I had my time again I would not work in paye employment where you are a sitting duck
Do you support IR35 legislation then?
big_n_daft - MemberHe proposed moving it to the science curriculum, probably the best place for it as we need scientists to help sort out the problem
"Michael Gove has abandoned plans to drop climate change from the geography national curriculum.
The education secretary's decision represents a victory for Ed Davey, the energy and climate change secretary, who has waged a sustained battle in Whitehall to ensure the topic's retention.
The move to omit it from the new curriculum took on a symbolic status. Gove insisted it was part of his drive to slim an unwieldy curriculum down, to give teachers greater freedom to show their initiative.
[b]It was claimed that climate change would appear under science. But environmentalists and science teachers claimed the omission would downgrade the topic and make its existence a matter of greater dispute.
There were also fears that pupils' awareness of its importance would decline.[/b]"
Unable to link, but from here:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jul/05/michael-gove-climate-change-geography-curriculum ]
He proposed moving it to the science curriculum, probably the best place for it as we need scientists to help sort out the problem
Whatever his intentions, although his voting history suggests he is a "sceptic", climate change is a cross-subject problem that affects us all, not just those that are scientifically inclined. It is essential it is taught within geography (both human and physical), geology, economics, sociology etc etc. At best, it showed poor judgement, at worst: a deliberate sidelining of an important issue, akin to what trump is trying to do in the US.
And from the BBC, [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22158941 ]here.[/url]
jambalaya - MemberCorbyn's £11bn student loan "gibe away" was cruicial imo. It's a policy which benefits the middle class and will leave todays students having via their taxes to support a huge national debt
Ah, looks like I have to repeat yet again that the extra cost today is £0 (or actually, should reduce admin costs) and the long-term cost is probably something like 40% of what you claim, due to the soaring rate of nonrepayment of loans. The major difference is that currently we sweep that cost under the rug so it can be dealt with in 25 years. It's mostly just more honest accounting
Considering that we have chronic skills shortages in some sectors, but an education sector that thinks that graduates in arts and media have equal 'employment' merit is why we've ended up with call centres full of unemployable graduates and yet certain sectors increasingly dependant on imported skills. What's worse is the post-war workforce demographic is that significant numbers of retirees in the next 10-15 years, so if we're not investing in training and education now, the economic impact in future years will be dire as businesses will offshore work
but an education sector that thinks that graduates in arts and media have equal 'employment' merit is why we've ended up with call centres full of unemployable graduates and yet certain sectors increasingly dependant on imported skills.
Love to see some proof of that....
Edit with some stats
UK Film Industry was 1.45bn in 2014
http://weareukfilm.com/facts-and-stats
In contrast the budget for nuclear clean up at Sellafield is 2bn/year
http://www.sellafieldsites.com/2016/01/nda-secures-2bn-budget-for-sellafield-but-efficiency-remains-vital-to-delivering-success/
The music industry contributes 3.5bn to the economy
http://www.ukmusic.org/news/true-value-of-music-industry-to-uk-economy-revealed
How about the video game industry?
https://ukie.org.uk/research#Contribution
^^ hasn't worked in Greece has it ?
Because Greece is directly comparable to ourselves?
Nothing will work if corruption and tax evasion is taken to that extreme.
There's some truth in what dovebiker says, though it's not as simple as it might seem.
Skills shortages emerge as a sector grows quicker than anticipated or the UK makes it financially advantageous to bring jobs to the UK (eg. film industry mentioned above).
So by their nature they are unpredictable.
The key thing is getting a party in government willing to invest in education for all, including FE and vocational stuff.
Can we think of anyone who had a really good manifesto in that regard?
Am I right in thinking that Theresa May's coalition of chaos only has a majority of just [b]two[/b] seats?
So If TM and that waste-of-space David Davis are in Brussels negotiating, then they just need one other MP to be a no-show (stuck in traffic on the M25, caught up in a British Airways computer meltdown, etc), and they will start losing votes in the HoC?
No the majority is about 13. 328 vs 315. Sinn Fein will be absent regardless.
And she brings back in Gove as Environmental Sec.
Hilariously hilarious.
There is something to be said about nails and coffins.
Looks like the 1922 committee are preparing her for a deep demise.
Gove's inclusion in the cabinet shows that whoever is charge at Tory HQ (certainly not May), really doesn't understand what went wrong.
They'll continue to make exactly the same mistakes and continue to fall.
Second election is a certainty.
How much did the last one cost - 100m or something? Unbelievable.
Gove's inclusion in the cabinet shows that whoever is charge at Tory HQ (certainly not May), really doesn't understand what went wrong.
agreed. great innit?
From the BBC:
Mr Davis said that while the Tory election campaign had been disappointing, Mrs May was a "formidable prime minister" and accused people speculating about her leadership of "the absolute height of self-indulgence".
Really?
I think the height of self indulgence is calling an unecessary election and then ignoring the result.
David Davis has been unbelievable arrogant over the past few months in his dealings with the media.
They can't do another election - not enough time before the A50 cut off and Corbyn might well win.
In my opinion of course and I'm often wrong. Particularly with predicting decisions made by mad folk.
Next election will not be the pm's choice (though it may be that of some of the back benches)
"a bad prime minister is better than no prime minister"
that's how it was described on R4 this morning. good to see tory self preservation taking precedence...
@mike maybe, maybe not. She could maufacture one over the "Brexit Bill" as a tap for Labour or simply call one late in 2018 to ensure the public approve / decline her final deal (or force a WTO Brexit) ?
The EU are rightly concerned that negotiations now are MUCH more tricky, if May doesn't get what she wants she can oress the GE button. IMO it would be inpossible for Labour to stand on a manifesto commitment to pay a big Brexit Bill and a large ongoing budget contribution.
Rusty Davies and May have been spot on in their approach. The "Brexit Bill" is a lokitical try on with no legal basis. We owe £36bn less £16bn in rebates up until 2019 then as per Law Lords A50 terminates all budget contributions. May is absokutely correct to say we will NOT sign up to a bad deal. We will take WTO tariffs as per the EU's largest trading partners
WTO annecdote. So last weekend I was helping some Swiss friends get their boat setup for a UK regatta. Local sales agent was F-ing and blinding about Brexit. So I looked up WTO tariffs on yachts. 0.8% (typical range 0-2%). So a £100k new yacht would be a maximum of £800 more expensive due to tariffs. Remember VAT is £20k. Now currency moves are much more significant but they can go both ways of course
WTO tariffs are not "no deal". They are the same deal as the US etc have
So last weekend I was helping some Swiss friends get their boat setup for a UK regatta.
😆
Man of the people