[Closed] ShhhhhhSh.. I think the Remainers have finally cried themselves to sleep

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit ]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit[/url]

Vote Leave chief executive, Matthew Elliott, said: “The EU is not working. The eurozone is collapsing, millions of people are unemployed and Europe’s economies are massively underperforming. That means that European countries are buying less from us than ever before as we trade more with the rest of the world.

Figures from the ONS showed that Europe is gradually becoming a less important destination for UK companies. In 2000, 60% of exports went to other EU countries, but the percentage fell to 58% in 2005, 54% in 2010 and 47% in 2015.

Europe has tended to be a less crucial market for UK service sector companies, many of whom have close business links with the US. Since 2000, the percentage of services sector exports going to the EU has remained at around 40%. Taking goods and services together, the share of exports going to the EU has fallen from 54% in 2000 to 44% in 2015.

The latest ONS figures show that Britain had a £34.7bn deficit in the trade of goods in the first three months of 2016, up by £1.4bn on the final quarter of 2015. The deficit with the EU accounted for more than two thirds of the shortfall, with the deficit with non-EU countries standing at £10.8bn.

We are not going to stop trading with Europe, even though some voices in the EU would like to punish us - if they did they would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

We will, however not be paying double what we should for "Environmental protection, regional development, science funding, trail centres" and we will decide where the money goes according to the needs of our nation.

We are not going to stop trading with Europe, even though some voices in the EU would like to punish us - if they did they would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

We will, however not be paying double what we should for "Environmental protection, regional development, science funding, trail centres" and we will decide where the money goes according to the needs of our nation.

Taking goods and services together, the share of exports going to the EU has fallen from 54% in 2000 to 44% in 2015.

I'd love to live in the bubble.

Judging by Phillip Hammonds comments it appears as if they are going to borrow lots more cash to fund infrastructure projects and keep benefits ticking along (at least until the next general election anyway)

Not sure a bigger overdraft is the answer

Not sure a bigger overdraft is the answer

A bigger overdraft with interest rates fixed at a generationally low rate isn't such a bad idea. It's pretty evident that austerity and cutting everything hasn't worked. I guess stimulus is about the only other option.

A bigger overdraft with interest rates fixed at a generationally low rate isn't such a bad idea. It's pretty evident that austerity and cutting everything hasn't worked. I guess stimulus is about the only other option.

Funny that, so did austerity george (remember him?). Borrowing more that ever to fund fiscal stimulus and ultra loose monetary policy - we even borrowed 10 year money at 0,91% last week.

Judging by Phillip Hammonds comments it appears as if they are going to borrow lots more cash to fund infrastructure projects and keep benefits ticking along (a

That's more or less what the Tories brand as irresponsible when Labour propose it.

Dr, in the past twenty five years or so, which party has delivered more fiscal surpluses - the Tories or Labour?

How many developed countries are borrowing more than us (in relation to national income)?

TH IIRC it's Labour. But you know as well as I do that that bald number is meaningless on its own.

Anyhow - my point was not party political - more about hypocrisy.

I voted Remain, but I don't think the world will end on Brexit. However it is going to be a much rockier road than the Leavers think while we adjust to changed circumstances. The country has survived worse though.

The precautions oldmanmtb is taking will be echoed all over the country with SMEs. You may disagree with his strategy, but anyone with a successful business that has survived recession should be listened to. I expect what may be called an adjustment recession, but those SMEs like oldmanmtb's will be those that survive it.

While the old Commonwealth countries are probably keen to sign trade agreements, it will be on their terms. They will remember the damage to their trade caused by the UK's abrupt turnaround on it joining the EU, and be well aware that this could happen again if the Remainers managed to force a Rejoin referendum.

One benefit of Brexit may be that the Daily Mail/Express mindset of the UK still being a major world power, ie delusions of empire, will be shown to be the emperor with no clothes. You can't "punch above your weight" when you don't have planes on your aircraft carriers, and the world already knows that (or at least Putin does, and that's who counts).

Oh, and if you're a Leaver and really want to take back control of your country I expect at the moment you'll be contacting your MP to get rid of the 851 unelected members of the House of Lords. It might also help if we could ban foreign billionaires from owning our mass media, too many of our politicians are beholden to them.

And while you're at it, petition the govt to expel Scotland from the UK because it's plainly obvious the Theresa May is going to use Scottish recalcitrance as an excuse to kick Brexit into the long grass.

Judging by Phillip Hammonds comments it appears as if they are going to borrow lots more cash

Situation normal then, we've been borrowing more and more since the 2008 crash. Osbourne borrowed more in 5 years than Labour did in 13 (although that was more to do with the timing of the crash and pretty inevitable).

[img] [/img]

Although as a % of GDP it looks better:

[img] [/img]

Luckily, it's pretty cheap to fund

[img] [/img]

Getting into the mind of a typical Brexiter....
"I reckon we should stop immigration of Cock Asians, they're responsible for most of the rapes and murders in this country.

But I'm not racist really, I'm all for Youth in Asia."

epicyclo - Member
I voted Remain, but I don't think the world will end on Brexit. However it is going to be a much rockier road than the Leavers think while we adjust to changed circumstances. The country has survived worse though.

It does feel a bit like everyone is getting round to accepting that it will be a bit shit, the problem comes when the Unicorn Cake is late/cancelled.

Greenpeace have bought the Leave bus and parked it outside Westminster

The point I am trying to get over (badly) is the fact that a significant percentage of those voting to remain are the ones who create and maintain jobs in the private secto, so a successful Brexit strategy places a very high reliance on those people (not saying the exit voters don't contain these people I just think they are more prevalent in the Remain camp) Hammond will chuck borrowed money in one shape or another at these people and hope the trickle down gets some of the benefits class suitably better off? Trouble is in my SME space we have learnt to sweat the asset and push work out rather than expand as we simply don't trust anyone and that include's all political parties and protest voters. The reality is without highly confident SMEs this country will struggle because we will sit on our cash (both actual and potential borrowing) while we await the next major **** up - the confidence has gone simple as that

Not just SMEs, Oldmanmtb.

News reports are full of large organisations either a) reviewing their investments in the UK or b) saying that people shouldn't assume just because of Brexit they will be reducing their investments in the UK.

So not much confidence around.

But it's OK - Jamba, Ninfan and a couple of others have enough confidence to raise the average significantly (no real solutions, no clarity on what they actually want, but confidence, lots of confidence)

Just been mulling freedom of movement over.

Assuming all remainers are pro freedom of movement and all right wing free market flexible work force advocating leavers are pro freedom of movement, we will keep it, won't we?

The youngest guy in our office looks as though his world has fallen in. He has brilliant French and his medium term plans were to work in France.

To deny freedom of movement based upon a fiscal objections I. E we can't afford it is acceptable - however it is roundly accepted this is not the case soooooooohhh if we deny free movement of people within the EU what is our reason? Answers on a postcard or fill in the missing letters R******s

The youngest guy in our office looks as though his world has fallen in. He has brilliant French and his medium term plans were to work in France.

This.

Amongst all the economic arguing, some people seem to have forgotten that freedom of movement can be bloody fantastic on a personal level. And that is significant.

One of my mates is married to a lovely German woman and has four kids. That wouldn't have happened without freedom of movement. That's a pretty depressing thought.

At present (with everything still unknown), only thing 'leave' have won is a negative image (e.g. thick, racist, xenophobic etc) in the eyes of half the nation - that I think will create a stigma for quite a while. I'm not saying it's justified, but it's out there now in many a 'remainers' head...

One of my mates is married to a lovely German woman and has four kids. That wouldn't have happened without freedom of movement.

only thing 'leave' have won is a negative image (e.g. thick, racist, xenophobic etc)

I think everyone in the UK is now tarred with that brush...

We just look like a bunch of insular retards who'd sabotage our own economy rather than speak to a foreigner.

And the timing was perfect with football hooligans at the Euro.

footflaps - Member
'only thing 'leave' have won is a negative image (e.g. thick, racist, xenophobic etc)'
I think everyone in the UK is now tarred with that brush...

Except the Scots who are looking awesome. 🙂

My dad married a German girl, though his freedom of movement involved being a tank driver!

I know some vehicles are considered chick magnets but that particular choice had never occurred to me... 🙂

We just look like a bunch of insular retards who'd sabotage our own economy rather than speak to a foreigner.

I know some vehicles are considered chick magnets but that particular choice had never occurred to me...

As one of the Americans in the office said, at least it's not just us that look like dicks at the moment.

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber

[I]. It's pretty evident that austerity and cutting everything hasn't worked.[/I]

But it isn't really austerity and cuts, as the evidence shows we're spending (borrowing) more than ever.

It's heartening to see that the Remainers are still surviving on their diet of sour grapes.

It's heartening to see that the Remainers are still surviving on their diet of sour grapes.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07/14/everything-you-need-to-know-about-theresa-may-s-brexit

"[i]Hang on a minute. You mean we can't negotiate any trade deals, inside or outside the EU, while the two-year Article 50 process is ongoing?[/i]

Exactly. Actually, it's against the law for EU member states (we'd still be an EU member state until the end of the two-year process) to conduct bilateral trade negotiations with other member states or countries. There might be wriggle room here. If the UK and the EU enter into negotiations in good faith they could authorise those talks. But there's not that much good faith about and EU leaders are irritated by Britain's constant demands for a bespoke single market, its vote to leave and the continued uncertainty around its negotiating position. The thing to remember when imagining all this is that we have very little leverage, except for when we trigger Article 50.

[i]So what happens when we fall out the EU at the end of the Article 50 process?[/i]

It's Year Zero. We will have no trade deals, no financial arrangements with the EU or anyone else. We're like a man being thrown out of a plane into the sea with no lifejacket. Seriously. I'm not making this up. It's scary."

...nice

Just read that ^^^^^^. Can't we ask Mr Farage or one of his elite team the answer. I'm sure it's really simple.
Edit how about you Mr bees what's your take on this situation?

b r - Member

But it isn't really austerity and cuts, as the evidence shows we're spending (borrowing) more than ever.

Borrowing isn't a measurement of austerity or cuts- there's no denying there have been cuts and fire sales of national assets. It's just that they haven't resulted in the promised cuts in borrowing. And the reason? They were never supposed to. Tory austerity doesn't mean cut borrowing, it means cut the state even if it costs more- the cuts aren't a means to an end, they're the end itself. Borrowing is just the universal excuse that makes it possible to do things you could never do honestly. "We're selling the Royal Mail for a billion quid less than it's worth, mumble mumble, debt, Labour's fault, long term economic plan, inheritance tax cuts, stamp duty cuts for million pound houses, housing benefit cuts, we're all in this together".

THM's fond of saying how loose Osborne's fiscal policy was, and he's right. But that doesn't tell you a thing about austerity, because of course it's possible to cut the state while also spending more or borrowing more.

Gofasterstripes you are wasting your time posting out actual facts and legal requirements apparently we must simply "believe" - I genuinely did not believe this country was populated by people that simply could not be arsed to look past the bollocks spouted by Farage and Boris - anyway watching Boris Davies and Fox failing will be amusing while Hammond borrows money faster than a crack whore to keep the masses suppressed before the next election. To stop this really going very very badly (remember we have no sympathy from any other country - the ones who will talk to us just want to sell us shit as we will have shed loads of borrowed cash to spend) some major economic miracles will need to be worked - maybe it's Roosevelts new deal reconfigured for 2020

Time for a convenient coup.

The youngest guy in our office looks as though his world has fallen in. He has brilliant French and his medium term plans were to work in France.

I find this sort of attitude and lack of understanding depressing really - who is he speaking to ? I have worked in US and Singapore, and been offered various jibes in non-EU countries. The UK has many non-EU citizens happily living amd working here. The notion that leaving the EU will close doors to talented skilled people is ridiculous.

As for all the negativity Softbank just paid £25bn to buy a UK technology company, it paid a 40% premium to the share price to do so. That shows huge confidence in the UK to do so. Whether we where in the EU or not was irrelevant.

Jamba I applauded your confidence but what the **** are we actually going to do for the next 5 years? And more importantly how are we actually going to improve life for the working poor? I can not see the opportunity.... enlighten me to a sensible fiscal plan that includes real market share we can gain elsewhere other than existing EU business- we need more than that to make this work - dint just say financial services that does not help a bloke who drives a fork lift

So NW but really don't think that you can equate austerity directly with the role of the state in that way.

Appreciate that the term is very loosely allied (ditto neo-liberal) with a variety of meanings, intended or otherwise.

I am reminded however of Krugman's comments last year , "Given that the coalition essentially stopped imposing new austerity measures after its first two years, there's nothing at all surprising about seeing a revival of economic growth in 2013."

Good old Austerity George - remember him?

Jambas - don't forget indirect effect of weaker £ bringing Uk assets into play eg UCI/Odean last week and ARM this

teamhurtmore - Member

So NW but really don't think that you can equate austerity directly with the role of the state in that way.

I think it's clearly what the tory party mean when they say it tbh. I hereby trademark the words fauxterity and fausterity.

@jambayla -can you read the politics.co.uk article that gofaster linked (and someone else a few days ago) and reply with what you think. I read it (accepting what it says) and to me it demonstrates the referendum was not thought out properly and the reasons for voting out are not possible to attain without serious problems.

What do you think @jambayla and co?

Respectfully I disagree - the term is bandied around far too freely.

Given my libertarian bias, I am sympathetic to the notion of a reduced role/size of the state. But I do not accept that this is austerity. I am however, critical of large element of the current policy mix esp QE and relieved that George abandoned oausterity at the time he did - albeit that the masses did not notice. Quite a clever trick that although not sure if it was luck or judgement. Probably the former.

teamhurtmore - Member

I am however, critical of large element of the current policy mix esp QE and relieved that George abandoned austerity at the time he did

They justified PIP cuts, the JSA freeze, the benefits cap, housing benefits freezes and caps with austerity, to name but a few so it's hard to say they abandoned it. But I agree the crucial matter in this discussion is what constitutes austerity. I say "tory austerity" is quite distinct- cuts for their own sake regardless of economic benefit. Or damage.

TBH "austerity" in the way it's commonly used- cuts to make savings- doesn't really make any sense itself. The word austere doesn't imply any [i]benefit[/i], it's just a description of conditions. So ironically tory austerity is closer to the true meaning of the word- puritanical frugality for no good reason at all.

It is - it included running one of the most accomodative fiscal policies in the developed world. Odd that 😉

Exactly my point. Nothing [i]odd[/i] about it though, it's just standard tory scumbaggery and dishonesty, selling a kick in the balls with a lie, and never even attempting to deliver the promises that put you in power, and then pursuing spending policies that you derided Labour for proposing. Nothing odd about that.

The key point here is that it doesn't make a person who's had their ESA cut feel like the tories have abandoned austerity. The fact that the £1.4bn saving won't actually be used to cut the deficit doesn't matter to them.

I find this sort of attitude and lack of understanding depressing really - who is he speaking to ?

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-brexit-migration-david-davis-a7141131.html ]David Davis maybe[/url]:

[i]He stopped short of guaranteeing the status of EU nationals already in the country. Mr Davis said: "We will get a generous settlement for EU migrants here now and a generous settlement for British citizens in the EU."[/i]

As for all the negativity Softbank just paid £25bn to buy a UK technology company, it paid a 40% premium to the share price to do so.

The spin on this is just amazing.

ARM, an incredibly successful British company that helped to establish the UK as a major player in the technology sector has been bought by a Japanese multinational.

And we're supposed to be pleased???

The guy who founded the company certainly wasn't.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36827769 ]He said[/url] [i]"This is a sad day for me and I think a sad day for technology in Britain... it's the loss of independence. ARM is really the last British company that has a global reach... it gave Britain real strength"[/i]

Still.. I'm sure we can look forward to more brilliant "successes" like this as foreign companies take advantage of the weak pound to buy up what's left of Britain at Closing Down Sale prices.

🙁