[Closed] Sharia law in Sudan. How can this be happening in the 21st Century?

We're in the 21st century. They're not.

They're at the same part of the evolutionary process as we were when we were doing this

A petition is a good idea though. I've heard that religious fundamentalist lunatics from the dark ages are pretty receptive to them

All religions and societies go through periods of fundamentalism.
We're heading for another global backward shift.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/28/texas-abortion-clinics-courts-helping ]Anti abortionists gaining ground in the US.[/url]

Western Europe is out of tune with the rest of the world at the moment.
Freedom is unfashionable.
Human rights are expensive and democracy is so inconvenient.

Wani is appealing his wife's execution, which officials said won't be held until Ibrahim gives birth and nurses her infant.

How remarkably compassionate of them 🙁

A strong understanding of the delicate world of international diplomacy shown in the comments there:

[i]"Obama its real simple bro, you get on the damned phone and you tell the Sudanese President he lets the lady go and to the USA or 30 seconds after they kill her we Nuke Sudan"[/i]

😯

A petition is a good idea though. I've heard that religious fundamentalist lunatics from the dark ages are pretty receptive to them

A petition is a good idea though. I've heard that religious fundamentalist lunatics from the dark ages are pretty receptive to them

LoL a damn good Twitter storm sorts em right out as well...

Diplomatic pressure from the Western Governments can certainly help.

What do you two think should be done then?

[b]How can this be happening in the 21st Century?[/b]

Is that a trick question ? Terrible things happen every single day in the 21st Century. They shouldn't, as we now have the capability to stop them, but we're a very silly and self obsessed species.

Try reading the international pages of a decent newspaper, and you'll see despicable acts happening all the time.

http://international.nytimes.com/

Or are you looking for an answer to all this ?

What do you two think should be done then?

Why is their an onus on us to do anything? When did we become the World Police? The whole problem with dealing with fundamentalists is that you can't really bargain or rationalise with them. Thats why they're fundamentalists. Do you think that someone who thinks its acceptable, desirable even, to stone people to death for the honour of the one true god, is going to carefully listen to how your western liberal values are offended, then agree to some kind of compromise?

Best thing to does to leave them too it. Previously experience has shown that ultimately they'll all wipe each other out in an I'm-more-Islamic-than-you competition, involving kalashnikovs and rocket propelled grenades. We can make a few bob selling them the arms to hasten the process, then try and reason with the survivors in a couple of hundred years.

Alternatively….

[img] [/img]

They do have form for releasing Western prisoners when they realise they've gone too far. Remember the "teddy bear called Mohamed" fiasco?

It does seem shocking at first, but I pause for a while and think, no, Im not surprised. Ive lived in a few shit countrys and been to Sudan for a few months, things are quite different there.

What is shocking is how much of a little bubble the West lives in.

The majority of the worlds population dont have internet cafes, iPads, forums, electricity, running water or toilets.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/02/22/_60_percent_of_the_world_population_still_without_toilets.html

I am sure I remember reading somewhere that more people in the world have access to a mobile phone than a flushing toilet.

This is purely despicable by our standards, however these people live by different values than we do, and I'm sure they would find many of our freedoms and ways of living equally as despicable. Agree with Binners 100% - this is none of our business, let them get on with it and hopefully they will eventually learn by their own mistakes. Please also don't forget that the UK is hardly whiter than white - you only have to look at our history as head of the Empire to see that. We have no right to be policing or lecturing others.

I think that was specifically referring to Yorkshire Hels 😉

not just sudan though, our close ally and supplier of petrol for our cars saudi arabia has what id consider a horrific track record on human rights via shariah law

religion is often used by people as an excuse to be dicks, look at the persecution of gays in russia and elsewhere or the christian/muslim violence in CAR

I think that was specifically referring to Yorkshire Hels

You can't have been to Yorkshire Binners, Phones just don't work here and my stream flushes itself nicely thanks.

I am starting to think that some nations are basically trolling the west, so they can use the western reaction for their own internal political gain.

I think you'll find there are Sharia courts scattered around Britain.
Is it not right to publicly condemn monstrous misogynist behaviour? If not, I worry for the future of this country too.

Its hard to take a moral high ground where our closest ally (USA) is currently torturing its own citizens to death to provide 'justice'

Shitty things happen everywhere

Its hard to take a moral high ground where our closest ally (USA) is currently torturing its own citizens to death to provide 'justice'

Do they kill people for refusing to convert to a certain religion?

What has the USA's capital punishment policy got to do with us anyway?

I am amazed that so many on here can dismiss this. At least Amnesty International are trying to do something.

Actually, what fascinates me more about this, is not that she's been sentenced to death. It's that she is choosing not to renounce her Christianity in the face of being executed and leaving her two children without a mother.

Some mother she is. Say some words, keep them happy, get out the country as a refugee, be a Christian somewhere where they tolerate it, and give your kids a decent life.

She's choosing to be a martyr and that's just as bad.

I'd like to see a return to clear and unambiguous foreign policy based on political expediency and national self interest.
Pick the side that you can do business with and provide (preferably sell) them sufficient apparatus to remove the inconvenient little oiks who won't play nice. Served us well in the past.

..... and ducks back down below the parapet.

Theres a worrying growth or 'form' of Islam in my opinion. Those who haven't done well in life or know they'll never get the riches that they had hoped for- the radicalised/extreme forms of Islam offer them an instant pop-up purpose and respect. All instant. By 'joining' they forgo any need to work hard to that point.

This for me is spreading. Where are the noble and fierce warriors of old like Saladin?

Who would speak out against Sudan? (and others). To the OP, what is a petition going to do? Why are different sects of Islam killing each other?

How can we stop this- Where is the one powerful uniting force like there once was?

What has the USA's capital punishment policy got to do with us anyway?

We should be happy to condemn anyone who treats people inhumanely regardless of their colour, creed or religion. All three of these points are important not just the religion bit.

Its far to easy to pick on the people who are different colour; just because they believe in something else.

Why should they take any notice of the West when its biggest player (the USA) are happy to torture people to death and execute children and the mentally ill.

Before people start lecturing other cultures about right and wrong, we need to get our own house in order first.

To the OP, what is a petition going to do?

Informs our politicians that we are unhappy and want some action to be taken.

Why are different sects of Islam killing each other?

What has that got to do with this situation?

How can we stop this- Where is the one powerful uniting force like there once was?

Not sure what you're talking about?

I am amazed that so many on here can dismiss this. At least Amnesty International are trying to do something.

Have they signed the petition too?

Whatever Amnesty says will make bugger all difference. Nor will anything else short of nuking them. They're fundamentalist nut-jobs who believe they're soldiers of Allah on some divine mission. And even if you threaten to kill them, they'll think thats bloody great too, as they'll die fighting the western crusaders, and therefore be martyr's and be entitled to their 70[s] IT workers called Colin who still live with their mum[/s] virgins in paradise

Only one way to deal with it really…..

[img] [/img]

BillMC - Member

I think you'll find there are Sharia courts scattered around Britain.

Whooooaaaaaa there, reighn in the Daily Wail 2+2=5'ing.

The 'courts' in the UK have no legal standing and don't dish out capital/corpral punishments. More on a par with two people going to mediation to settle a dispute.

Condeming Islam/Sharia for this is about as relavent as condeming democracy because it gave us Robert Mugabe.

She's choosing to be a martyr and that's just as bad.

I don't think my vocabulary is vast enough to convey just exactly what a ****ing moronic statement that is.

Next time you are going to offer up such an idiotic opinion, pretend that instead of typing it out on your phone that you actually saying it out loud to a group of real people.
Then have a little think about whether or not it's really that sensible to spout such utter shite.

More on a par with two people going to mediation to settle a dispute.

Yes things like marital disputes. Woman wants to divorce husband but was told NOT to was one of them.

Doesn't have to be 'capital punishment' to be oppressive and wrong.

Informs our politicians that we are unhappy and want some action to be taken

😆 I was at the rally against the invasion of Iraq in London in 2003. Hundreds of thousands of people filed past Downing St to voice their displeasure. Fat lot of good that did.

What has that got to do with this situation?

Quite a lot. Here's some light reading for you

https://www.alislam.org/library/73divisions/73-09.html

Not sure what your talking about?

Well, what do you want to happen. Send in the UN ? Lets see how that works out shall we.

Are you actually a paid up member of Amnesty International ? If not, you should be.

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/join/adult

Find it quite hypocritical that those on here jumping on the bandwagon to condemn unsavoury events in a 3rd world country, they know little about, are probably doing so from behind the screen of a new Mac laptop, in a nice air conditioned office with cafe latte in hand.

Yes things like marital disputes. Woman wants to divorce husband but was told NOT to was one of them.

[img] [/img]
Or it didn't happen.

Bessides, that would be exactly like any other mediation, if it doesn't work then you end up in the real courts anyway.

they know little about, are probably doing so from behind the screen of a new Mac laptop, in a nice air conditioned office with cafe latte in hand.

This is STW, it's a PC (we all work in IT) and a cup of tea surely, the coffee and mac are 'lifestyle purchases' for outside work.

Find it quite hypocritical that those on here jumping on the bandwagon to condemn unsavoury events in a 3rd world country, they know little about, are probably doing so from behind the screen of a new Mac laptop, in a nice air conditioned office with cafe latte in hand.

FFS! 🙄
Where's the hypocrisy?
Are you suggesting that as I don't fully understand a country and/or culture then I cannot criticise their actions?

Next time you are going to offer up such an idiotic opinion, pretend that instead of typing it out on your phone that you actually saying it out loud to a group of real people.
Then have a little think about whether or not it's really that sensible to spout such utter shite.

If we all start applying that criteria, the interweb will implode

*typed into a mahoosive Mac monitor while slurping Vimto*

rebel12 - Member

Find it quite hypocritical that those on here jumping on the bandwagon to condemn unsavoury events in a 3rd world country, they [b]know little about[/b], are probably doing so from behind the screen of a new Mac laptop, in a nice air conditioned office with cafe latte in hand.

I've emboldened the bit that is relevent to yourself.

gobuchul plus 1 "I am amazed that so many on here can dismiss this"

Pretty stunned myself .. everything from moral relativism, to white liberal guilt, to colonial guilt, and then comparing the attitude of americans to the death sentence for murderer, to the islamic sentence of death for apostasy given to a pregnant female doctor. Whose crime is having a muslim father and a christian husband (shes also been tried for adultery by the way).. all in less than 20 posts.

I thought I was a cynical but the majority here seem to have turned both cynical and hopeless.

I suppose y'all think that the phrase "universal human rights" is a western affectation that poor 3rd worlders are incapable of understanding.

I'm sure that everyone; from the lawyers in ****stan who get shot for defending blasphemy cases; to the gays in Uganda who get arrested for living; to the women in iran who got arrested for dancing to "be happy" will appreciate your support.

****s

I suppose y'all think that the phrase "universal human rights" is a western affectation that poor 3rd worlders are incapable of understanding.

They're fundamentalists! With the emphasis on the 'mental' bit of that word. They rejoice in their medieval barbarism. So the more western hand-wringing goes on, the happier they are. Ultimately, by kicking up such a fuss, you're only encouraging them

Like I said….. this is the most effective form of communication…..

[img] [/img]

Oh… and you used the word/abomination 'y'all' which automatically renders anything typed after it irrelevant, as it can now be dismissed as drivel 😀

Nothing particularly constructive to add, just wanted to add my voice and say that this is absolutely disgusting. This kind of thing gets me so mad I literally cannot think straight, and thus; my solution is to send an assassin to kill any judge worldwide who passes a death sentence. Sorted.

She's choosing to be a martyr and that's just as bad.

Hey what?

Find it quite hypocritical that those on here jumping on the bandwagon to condemn unsavoury events in a 3rd world country, they know little about

OK so maybe there is good reason to kill her, we're just not getting it?

The majority of the worlds population dont have internet cafes, iPads, forums, electricity, running water or toilets.

Find it quite hypocritical that those on here jumping on the bandwagon to condemn unsavoury events in a 3rd world country, they know little about, are probably doing so from behind the screen of a new Mac laptop, in a nice air conditioned office with cafe latte in hand.

We get it - these are comparatively poor countries.

I wasn't aware that being poor entitles them to barbaric oppressive laws or that human rights only apply to the rich humans.

Perhaps if she preys hard enough god will save her. Isnt he the same god anyway christian / muslim ??

Or perhaps a good petition will save her.

Mayby we should petition the christian church to step in to save her, after all its their marketing that got her into this situation.

my solution is to send an assassin to kill any judge worldwide who passes a death sentence

[img] [/img]

Like I said….. this is the most effective form of communication…..

binners I know (hope) you're being funny, but the solution to a country killing a pregnant woman that [i]they[/i] don't like is [b]not[/b] for the West to fire off some big missiles to kill many more people (including pregnant women) that [i]we[/i] don't like.

They rejoice in their medieval barbarism.

Who?
The people doing the killing or the people being killed?

Perhaps if she preys hard enough god will save her.

Prey?

Anyway, maybe she is praying and maybe God's trying to work through us. Well maybe not you, his ways may be mysterious but there are limits I suppose.

binners ...... "Oh… and you used the word/abomination 'y'all' which automatically renders anything typed after it irrelevant, as it can now be dismissed as drivel"

Consarn it! you got me 🙁

I suppose sending missiles is a better response than nothing at all but please don't confuse concern for the human rights of others with "hand wringing".

Who?
The people doing the killing or the people being killed?

All of them. They're all mental! If theres anything to be taken from this sad tale, its don't go to countries full of mental people with a penchant for stoning people to death on a whim, for the honour of Allah*

* unless you're in a helicopter gunship

[img] [/img]

I think you have the wrong idea, I'm not condoning this, in fact I think it's terrible. What I'm saying though is we have no right to tell the country of Sudan to stop this sort of thing, just as people in Sudan have no right to tell us to stop drinking alcohol, killing pigs for bacon or that all our women should wear the burkha - things which they no doubt consider equally abhorrent. Different country, different rules, doesn't directly effect us, not our business to interfere.

we have no right to tell the country of Sudan to stop this sort of thing,

just as people in Sudan have no right to tell us to stop drinking alcohol, killing pigs for bacon or that all our women should wear the burkha

Are you saying that they are of equal significance? Their misguided insensitivity to alcohol use in the west against the medieval torture and murder of an innocent woman?

Are you saying that they are of equal significance?

+1

You can have a moral or spiritual compass that doesn't allow eating or drinking something, and that's fine, but when you decide it's ok to kill someone because they believe in a different imaginary man in the sky...

Different country, different rules, doesn't directly effect us

Presumably you're okay with America interfering, since her husband is American and this will clearly directly effect him?

But everyone else should just shrug and say "Whatever"?

Different country, different rules, doesn't directly effect us, not our business to interfere.

I suppose we should of just ignored South Africa's apartheid as well?

Are you saying that they are of equal significance? Their misguided insensitivity to alcohol use in the west against the medieval torture and murder of an innocent woman?

In their eyes, she's not innocent though. Thats the point. Look…. they're all mental. Totally hat-stand! No point reasoning with them, or trying to rationalise it, or make comparisons.

So… while we're telling them, should we ask them simply to restrict their general raving mentalness to this specific 'crime', or deliver a list of things that are equally as bonkers that we don't like either?

Or, just say **** it, its probably for their own good anyway, and….

[img] [/img]

Are you saying that they are of equal significance?

not defending sharia law in anyway BTW

just as important

Just as important to who? Apologists such as Rebel12 or those carrying out the "punishment"

Was just bringing up the point that if eating bacon (or some other western everyday occurrence) is in the same league as executing people in their book then listening to westerners saying "come on, you can have you funny little cultural ways, but death sentence for apostasy really isn't on" isn't going to get us very far is it?

It's a ****ed up situation, but I can see the "they won't listen" argument, we are judging them from our social/moral perspective, they will equally be judging us from theirs. Subjectively we can both be right and wrong...no?

Nothing particularly constructive to add, just wanted to add my voice and say that this is absolutely disgusting. This kind of thing gets me so mad I literally cannot think straight, and thus; my solution is to send an assassin to kill any judge worldwide who passes a death sentence. Sorted.

@binners remember to only post pictures of laser guided pin point accurate drone weapons. Those B52's have a habit of killing lots of innocent people. Whereas the laser guided thingy-a-me-jigs only kill those identified by military "intelligence"

Are you saying that they are of equal significance? Their misguided insensitivity to alcohol use in the west against the medieval torture and murder of an innocent woman?

In our eyes no, in their eyes probably yes - this is a 3rd world Muslim country we're dealing with. They don't watch Countryfile at the weekend or debate the benefits of 650B over a pint or two. They are totally different people to us with totally different beliefs and values. You need to understand how their society works before you pass judgement. I don't understand fully the Sudanese culture so I'd rather not get involved.

But everyone else should just shrug and say "Whatever"?

Well what do you propose we do about it? Perhaps scorn them in an outraged fashion from behind your laptop? Perhaps spit your latte at the screen in protest? Do you think they would listen if our Government interfered - or actually has our Governments interference in Muslim affairs in the past ever ended in anything positive in this region?

Might be nice if all minded our own business a bit.
Maybe even deal with issues at home first.
Of course not , its much more fun to rant and rave about something we actually can do nowt about.

not our business to interfere.

Well I'll bring the Godwin thing in, we interfered when Adolf got carried away and well that was a good thing I hope you agree.

Well I'll bring the Godwin thing in, we interfered when Adolf got carried away and well that was a good thing I hope you agree.

Adolf was invading Europe, who knows what we would have done (or not done) if he'd stayed at home ?

Maybe invading Poland was nothing to do with us, we made it our business.

That's why I said .....

..."if he'd stayed at home"

Just recolonise Africa and the middle east, things were much better when we were in charge.
Those funny foreigners cant be trusted to behave in a proper manner and certainly cant run their own countries.

Might be nice if all minded our own business a bit.

It wont be nice for the dead mother or her husband or her kids.

Loving all the apologists for Sudanese Sharia law.

A brown person is going to be murdered in a poor land far away but thats OK because we're rich and white and shouldn't judge them by our standards.

That's hand wringing liberal relativism disappearing up its own fundament.

Its enough to make me want to vote UKIP

jambalaya - Member
Nothing particularly constructive to add, just wanted to add my voice and say that this is absolutely disgusting. This kind of thing gets me so mad I literally cannot think straight, and thus; my solution is to send an assassin to kill any judge worldwide who passes a death sentence. Sorted.

@jambourgie - do you see the irony of it being you who gets to determine who is executed rather than a judge ? Your death sentence having more credibility than than the judge's

Er, irony, yes.......... We really do need a big "I'm being ironic/sarcastic"smilie on here don't we!

Loving all the apologists for Sudanese Sharia law.

Id guess a lot of the people pissed off about this situation also get peeved when our country invades another coz it won't do what we want.
It's complicated.

Loving all the apologists for Sudanese Sharia law.

A brown person is going to be murdered in a poor land far away but thats OK because we're rich and white and shouldn't judge them by our standards.

That's hand wringing liberal relativism disappearing up its own fundament.

Its enough to make me want to vote UKIP

Okay so what do you propose we should do about the situation since I've got no idea?

[b]Sanctions[/b] - great idea for a country where half the population are already starving!
[b]
Military action[/b] - fantastic idea, loads more bloodshed, because it's always worked so well in this region before hasn't it?
[b]
Political, media & Western public condemnation[/b] - wow, do you really think they will listen?

[b]Try to turn them all to Christian faith and values[/b] - wonderful, they'll love that and it would make us look as bad as they are.

So come on then - what's your great idea or does the extent of your protest end with tapping words of disgust on your keyboard and voting for the BNP?

Okay so what do you propose we should do about the situation?

At the risk of sounding like Father Ted, just because I don't know what should be done, doesn't mean that I can't see that something should be done.
One of the reasons we employ politicians and have civil services is so that people with (supposedly) more skills and experience than us can develop and table options, and make decisions on our behalf.
Your rather shallowminded dismissal of three options which all have their place in various situations demonstrates how limited some people's thinking is.

You need to understand how their society works before you pass judgement. I don't understand fully the Sudanese culture so I'd rather not get involved.

Its not cultural it is barbaric, its a different thing. I dont need an insight into their "culture" to make a sweeping statement that murdering people based on fairy stories is wrong.

Killing babies should be globally viewed as unacceptable for instance or are you saying that without a "cultural" insight we cant make such statements? r are you saying some people cant be held to such universally accepted standards of behavior?

At the risk of sounding like Father Ted

I was thinking more Father Dougal.

[img] [/img]

"Something ought to be done"

"what Dougal?"

"I don't know Ted".

Sanctions - great idea for a country where half the population are already starving!

I think that would be my choice (a trade ban) - but it would be absolutely nothing to do with trying to change their society or force our belief system on them and with very little regard to the consequences it might have to their population. It would be an internal message to our own population - 'we wash our hands of people and societies like this; we know better than to attempt to influence and we (now) are better than wanting to make a profit from them too.'

Someone on an earlier page had a rantette about everyone being in a bubble and having no idea about societies other than our own. I don't agree - folk may not be well versed in the subtleties of other cultures but the fact that a conversation on a mountain bike forum on this subject is happening at all is a stellar advertisement for the information available in the west in the internet era. It is places like Sudan that are in a bubble and it is the ignorance of that bubble that means that acts like this happen. If I really wanted to try to change and influence a place like Sudan I would flood the place with uncensored internet access through distributing satellite phones and repositioning a few communication satellites. No favourite sites with careful messages preprogrammed, just straightforward access and let the population educate themselves more broadly and make their own minds up.

[i]So come on then - what's your great idea or does the extent of your protest[/i]

I have no idea what to do about it, that doesn't mean I condone a barbaric act.

I'm astounded that some people on this thread seem to think its absolutely fine for a state to kill somebody because of that individual's religious belief.

As far as I can tell their reasons seem to be:

a. The Americans do it, so we can't criticise anyone else.

b. We shouldn't judge others by our standards, becasue we are rich and they aren't

c. There is nothibng we can do about, so it must be OK.

[i]and voting for the BNP?[/i]

Pay attention, it was UKIP. Farage would probably suggest invading the Sudan, which at least would be doing something.

I'm astounded that some people on this thread seem to think its absolutely fine for a state to kill somebody because of that individual's religious belief.

Who are those people ?

I'm sure they must exist because you said so, but I bet they will disagree with you dreaming up that opinion for them, when you point out who you are talking about.

I'm astounded that some people on this thread seem to think its absolutely fine for a state to kill somebody because of that individual's religious belief.

Errrrr except no ones actually said that though have they? Your argument might hold water if you get your basic facts right. I was aware it was UKIP you said and not the BNP but I changed to the BNP in jest (since they're even more right wing and racist than UKIP), and that's what you seemed to be generally implying.

There are plenty of barbaric and terrible things happening in this world at the moment, many much more unjust than even this case and on a much larger scale - yet this particular case, hyped by the media, seems to be the 'fashionable' one for the 'latte drinking' classes to be outraged about at the moment.

If you opened your eyes you would see that there are many problems in the world that are much more serious, but often the only way to resolve these problems is to let them resolve naturally and properly. Quick fixes applied by the West have a proven history of just making things worse, much, much worse.