[Closed] Sharia law in Sudan. How can this be happening in the 21st Century?

They rejoice in their medieval barbarism.

Who?
The people doing the killing or the people being killed?

Perhaps if she preys hard enough god will save her.

Prey?

Anyway, maybe she is praying and maybe God's trying to work through us. Well maybe not you, his ways may be mysterious but there are limits I suppose.

binners ...... "Oh… and you used the word/abomination 'y'all' which automatically renders anything typed after it irrelevant, as it can now be dismissed as drivel"

Consarn it! you got me 🙁

I suppose sending missiles is a better response than nothing at all but please don't confuse concern for the human rights of others with "hand wringing".

Who?
The people doing the killing or the people being killed?

All of them. They're all mental! If theres anything to be taken from this sad tale, its don't go to countries full of mental people with a penchant for stoning people to death on a whim, for the honour of Allah*

* unless you're in a helicopter gunship

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I think you have the wrong idea, I'm not condoning this, in fact I think it's terrible. What I'm saying though is we have no right to tell the country of Sudan to stop this sort of thing, just as people in Sudan have no right to tell us to stop drinking alcohol, killing pigs for bacon or that all our women should wear the burkha - things which they no doubt consider equally abhorrent. Different country, different rules, doesn't directly effect us, not our business to interfere.

we have no right to tell the country of Sudan to stop this sort of thing,

just as people in Sudan have no right to tell us to stop drinking alcohol, killing pigs for bacon or that all our women should wear the burkha

Are you saying that they are of equal significance? Their misguided insensitivity to alcohol use in the west against the medieval torture and murder of an innocent woman?

Are you saying that they are of equal significance?

+1

You can have a moral or spiritual compass that doesn't allow eating or drinking something, and that's fine, but when you decide it's ok to kill someone because they believe in a different imaginary man in the sky...

Different country, different rules, doesn't directly effect us

Presumably you're okay with America interfering, since her husband is American and this will clearly directly effect him?

But everyone else should just shrug and say "Whatever"?

Different country, different rules, doesn't directly effect us, not our business to interfere.

I suppose we should of just ignored South Africa's apartheid as well?

Are you saying that they are of equal significance? Their misguided insensitivity to alcohol use in the west against the medieval torture and murder of an innocent woman?

In their eyes, she's not innocent though. Thats the point. Look…. they're all mental. Totally hat-stand! No point reasoning with them, or trying to rationalise it, or make comparisons.

So… while we're telling them, should we ask them simply to restrict their general raving mentalness to this specific 'crime', or deliver a list of things that are equally as bonkers that we don't like either?

Or, just say **** it, its probably for their own good anyway, and….

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Are you saying that they are of equal significance?

not defending sharia law in anyway BTW

just as important

Just as important to who? Apologists such as Rebel12 or those carrying out the "punishment"

Was just bringing up the point that if eating bacon (or some other western everyday occurrence) is in the same league as executing people in their book then listening to westerners saying "come on, you can have you funny little cultural ways, but death sentence for apostasy really isn't on" isn't going to get us very far is it?

It's a ****ed up situation, but I can see the "they won't listen" argument, we are judging them from our social/moral perspective, they will equally be judging us from theirs. Subjectively we can both be right and wrong...no?

Nothing particularly constructive to add, just wanted to add my voice and say that this is absolutely disgusting. This kind of thing gets me so mad I literally cannot think straight, and thus; my solution is to send an assassin to kill any judge worldwide who passes a death sentence. Sorted.

@binners remember to only post pictures of laser guided pin point accurate drone weapons. Those B52's have a habit of killing lots of innocent people. Whereas the laser guided thingy-a-me-jigs only kill those identified by military "intelligence"

Are you saying that they are of equal significance? Their misguided insensitivity to alcohol use in the west against the medieval torture and murder of an innocent woman?

In our eyes no, in their eyes probably yes - this is a 3rd world Muslim country we're dealing with. They don't watch Countryfile at the weekend or debate the benefits of 650B over a pint or two. They are totally different people to us with totally different beliefs and values. You need to understand how their society works before you pass judgement. I don't understand fully the Sudanese culture so I'd rather not get involved.

But everyone else should just shrug and say "Whatever"?

Well what do you propose we do about it? Perhaps scorn them in an outraged fashion from behind your laptop? Perhaps spit your latte at the screen in protest? Do you think they would listen if our Government interfered - or actually has our Governments interference in Muslim affairs in the past ever ended in anything positive in this region?

Might be nice if all minded our own business a bit.
Maybe even deal with issues at home first.
Of course not , its much more fun to rant and rave about something we actually can do nowt about.

not our business to interfere.

Well I'll bring the Godwin thing in, we interfered when Adolf got carried away and well that was a good thing I hope you agree.

Well I'll bring the Godwin thing in, we interfered when Adolf got carried away and well that was a good thing I hope you agree.

Adolf was invading Europe, who knows what we would have done (or not done) if he'd stayed at home ?

Maybe invading Poland was nothing to do with us, we made it our business.

That's why I said .....

..."if he'd stayed at home"

Just recolonise Africa and the middle east, things were much better when we were in charge.
Those funny foreigners cant be trusted to behave in a proper manner and certainly cant run their own countries.

Might be nice if all minded our own business a bit.

It wont be nice for the dead mother or her husband or her kids.

Loving all the apologists for Sudanese Sharia law.

A brown person is going to be murdered in a poor land far away but thats OK because we're rich and white and shouldn't judge them by our standards.

That's hand wringing liberal relativism disappearing up its own fundament.

Its enough to make me want to vote UKIP

jambalaya - Member
Nothing particularly constructive to add, just wanted to add my voice and say that this is absolutely disgusting. This kind of thing gets me so mad I literally cannot think straight, and thus; my solution is to send an assassin to kill any judge worldwide who passes a death sentence. Sorted.

@jambourgie - do you see the irony of it being you who gets to determine who is executed rather than a judge ? Your death sentence having more credibility than than the judge's

Er, irony, yes.......... We really do need a big "I'm being ironic/sarcastic"smilie on here don't we!

Loving all the apologists for Sudanese Sharia law.

Id guess a lot of the people pissed off about this situation also get peeved when our country invades another coz it won't do what we want.
It's complicated.

Loving all the apologists for Sudanese Sharia law.

A brown person is going to be murdered in a poor land far away but thats OK because we're rich and white and shouldn't judge them by our standards.

That's hand wringing liberal relativism disappearing up its own fundament.

Its enough to make me want to vote UKIP

Okay so what do you propose we should do about the situation since I've got no idea?

[b]Sanctions[/b] - great idea for a country where half the population are already starving!
[b]
Military action[/b] - fantastic idea, loads more bloodshed, because it's always worked so well in this region before hasn't it?
[b]
Political, media & Western public condemnation[/b] - wow, do you really think they will listen?

[b]Try to turn them all to Christian faith and values[/b] - wonderful, they'll love that and it would make us look as bad as they are.

So come on then - what's your great idea or does the extent of your protest end with tapping words of disgust on your keyboard and voting for the BNP?

Okay so what do you propose we should do about the situation?

At the risk of sounding like Father Ted, just because I don't know what should be done, doesn't mean that I can't see that something should be done.
One of the reasons we employ politicians and have civil services is so that people with (supposedly) more skills and experience than us can develop and table options, and make decisions on our behalf.
Your rather shallowminded dismissal of three options which all have their place in various situations demonstrates how limited some people's thinking is.

You need to understand how their society works before you pass judgement. I don't understand fully the Sudanese culture so I'd rather not get involved.

Its not cultural it is barbaric, its a different thing. I dont need an insight into their "culture" to make a sweeping statement that murdering people based on fairy stories is wrong.

Killing babies should be globally viewed as unacceptable for instance or are you saying that without a "cultural" insight we cant make such statements? r are you saying some people cant be held to such universally accepted standards of behavior?

At the risk of sounding like Father Ted

I was thinking more Father Dougal.

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"Something ought to be done"

"what Dougal?"

"I don't know Ted".

Sanctions - great idea for a country where half the population are already starving!

I think that would be my choice (a trade ban) - but it would be absolutely nothing to do with trying to change their society or force our belief system on them and with very little regard to the consequences it might have to their population. It would be an internal message to our own population - 'we wash our hands of people and societies like this; we know better than to attempt to influence and we (now) are better than wanting to make a profit from them too.'

Someone on an earlier page had a rantette about everyone being in a bubble and having no idea about societies other than our own. I don't agree - folk may not be well versed in the subtleties of other cultures but the fact that a conversation on a mountain bike forum on this subject is happening at all is a stellar advertisement for the information available in the west in the internet era. It is places like Sudan that are in a bubble and it is the ignorance of that bubble that means that acts like this happen. If I really wanted to try to change and influence a place like Sudan I would flood the place with uncensored internet access through distributing satellite phones and repositioning a few communication satellites. No favourite sites with careful messages preprogrammed, just straightforward access and let the population educate themselves more broadly and make their own minds up.

[i]So come on then - what's your great idea or does the extent of your protest[/i]

I have no idea what to do about it, that doesn't mean I condone a barbaric act.

I'm astounded that some people on this thread seem to think its absolutely fine for a state to kill somebody because of that individual's religious belief.

As far as I can tell their reasons seem to be:

a. The Americans do it, so we can't criticise anyone else.

b. We shouldn't judge others by our standards, becasue we are rich and they aren't

c. There is nothibng we can do about, so it must be OK.

[i]and voting for the BNP?[/i]

Pay attention, it was UKIP. Farage would probably suggest invading the Sudan, which at least would be doing something.

I'm astounded that some people on this thread seem to think its absolutely fine for a state to kill somebody because of that individual's religious belief.

Who are those people ?

I'm sure they must exist because you said so, but I bet they will disagree with you dreaming up that opinion for them, when you point out who you are talking about.

I'm astounded that some people on this thread seem to think its absolutely fine for a state to kill somebody because of that individual's religious belief.

Errrrr except no ones actually said that though have they? Your argument might hold water if you get your basic facts right. I was aware it was UKIP you said and not the BNP but I changed to the BNP in jest (since they're even more right wing and racist than UKIP), and that's what you seemed to be generally implying.

There are plenty of barbaric and terrible things happening in this world at the moment, many much more unjust than even this case and on a much larger scale - yet this particular case, hyped by the media, seems to be the 'fashionable' one for the 'latte drinking' classes to be outraged about at the moment.

If you opened your eyes you would see that there are many problems in the world that are much more serious, but often the only way to resolve these problems is to let them resolve naturally and properly. Quick fixes applied by the West have a proven history of just making things worse, much, much worse.

There are plenty of barbaric and terrible things happening in this world at the moment, many much more unjust than even this case and on a much larger scale - yet this particular case, hyped by the media, seems to be the 'fashionable' one for the 'latte drinking' classes to be outraged about at the moment.

Then why dont you start threads about them then? Your approach seems to be because there are other injustices we shouldn't worry about this one. Shall we just have a big "injustithon" and the one that comes out on top is the only one we should concern ourselves with?

here's quite an interesting perspective on religious intolerance from a British muslim who describes his experience. It's quite interesting.

[url= http://appasp.chiswickw4.com/server/app/forum/ShowMessage.Asp?ID=993584 ]link linky[/url]

You can be as outraged as you like. But you have to ask the logical question 'what can we do about it?' And I'm afraid the answer is 'nothing'. Because they don't give a toss about what you think. The fact that you're outraged probably makes it better, because if a corrupt westerner disapproves then we're definitely doing something right!

Have you signed the petition? Like throwing your shoes at the sky to protest about clouds.

binners - Member
You can be as outraged as you like. But you have to ask the logical question 'what can we do about it?' And I'm afraid the answer is 'nothing'.

Rubbish....see below.

convert - Member

I think that would be my choice (a trade ban) - but it would be absolutely nothing to do with trying to change their society or force our belief system on them and with very little regard to the consequences it might have to their population. It would be an internal message to our own population - 'we wash our hands of people and societies like this; we know better than to attempt to influence and we (now) are better than wanting to make a profit from them too.'

Someone on an earlier page had a rantette about everyone being in a bubble and having no idea about societies other than our own. I don't agree - folk may not be well versed in the subtleties of other cultures but the fact that a conversation on a mountain bike forum on this subject is happening at all is a stellar advertisement for the information available in the west in the internet era. It is places like Sudan that are in a bubble and it is the ignorance of that bubble that means that acts like this happen. If I really wanted to try to change and influence a place like Sudan I would flood the place with uncensored internet access through distributing satellite phones and repositioning a few communication satellites. No favourite sites with careful messages preprogrammed, just straightforward access and let the population educate themselves more broadly and make their own minds up.

Convert gets it.

If I really wanted to try to change and influence a place like Sudan I would flood the place with uncensored internet access through distributing satellite phones and repositioning a few communication satellites. No favourite sites with careful messages preprogrammed, just straightforward access and let the population educate themselves more broadly and make their own minds up.

I think I've spotted a flaw in your master plan. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that given its a country full of muslamic loons, maybe at least 50% of the population won't have attended school, so can't actually read. I'd also hazard a guess that it wasn't at the top of the agenda for the other 50% either

Its potentially a better idea than the petition though. But still not as good as….

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[quote=binners ]But still not as good as….

Pah

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FWIW I've been to Khartoum five or six times and have some Sudanese customers and friends there and here in the UK. Without exception thy are the most charming, hospitable and friendly people you could want to know. They are also very funny and like laughing and joking around. But they are all deeply religious and on the couple of occasions when the conversation has strayed onto politics and America I've sensed that the degree of indoctrination is so deep that I've no chance of having a rational discussion and I've steered away from touchy subjects.

It's my strong feeling that religious fundamentalism needs ignorance to thrive and that as soon as people begin to be educated, religion begins to lose its significance to them. That will be the reason why Book-o Haram in Nigeria don't want girls to be educated, I guess.

Sanctions - great idea for a country where half the population are already starving!

Sanctions wouldn't really affect the poor, the foreign aid would still get through. Sanctions on the rich and people with power are whats needed as these are the people who make the decisions.

The only reason this story has got to the media is her husband is a US citizen. Hundreds if not thousands of people in Africa are in the same situation, sat on death row for being gay/wrong religion etc.

Where does the intervention stop just her or do we keep going and end up running the countries for them? I do feel sorry for people in these situations but really what can we actually do, we have limited resources in cleansing the world of barbaric acts.

Africa is developing and doing well at it, but it is still generations behind us. We need to consider that when comparing actions with our world and it wasn't long a go when you be locked up for being gay or even earlier burned for being a witch and not accepting Christianity.

thrive and that as soon as people begin to be educated, religion begins to lose its significance to them. That will be the reason why Book-o Haram in Nigeria don't want girls to be educated, I guess.

If only. There are a significant number of educated fundamentalists and the 9/11 pilots are an example.

I'm sure the points been made that it's their country and what right have we in imposing our western values and way of life. Opinion generated as always from the comfy chair at home with no understanding of others and their deeply held beliefs. Intervention just makes us the targets and sanctions just hurt the people.

Want to. Influence what goes on? Then use diplomacy, support and engagement at all levels of the government and people. Be seen as supportive and change can happen.

We need to be to be more tolerant and understanding