[Closed] Settle an argument...

British Leyland

/EOT

My experience is older stuff often did last better and could be repaired. My last central heating obliger lsted 13 years. My parents used to have on that was 3 times that age. I have a deore mech on one bike that is 20 years old and is much much better than a modern one - no slop in the pivots because it has proper bushings

However in some things like cars quality has certainly improved 60 000 miles used to see cars worn out

I had an STX rear mech on my first MTB in 1992 - it was floppy as hell in about a year. The whole bike was far poorer quality than an equivalent bike now. Andthe modern one comes with hyro discs and air suspension.

It's true that some things get better or worse as time goes on - Marzocchi, for instance. But overall, manufacturing tech has improved hugely, and cheaper stuff is better than cheap stuff used to be.

When was the last time you were in a car with holes in the floor?

Less crap in older times.

It was repaired too, not thrown out.

I don't buy that rear mechs are better or worse than they used to be. They seem the same to me - they are certainly made in the same ways.

My last central heating obliger lsted 13 years. My parents used to have on that was 3 times that age.

Ok but two key points:

1) How much did theirs cost vs yours

2) How efficient was it? Cos this might come under my point 3 above.

There's more cheap stuff AND more high quality stuff.

Some companies make money from high volume, low quality. Others from low volume high quality. And, everything in between.

Japan used to make high volume, low quality, but through lean processing and a focus on quality they actually produce high quality, high volume products.

It all depends on where you look, and what you're benchmarking against.

Quality has the capability to always be better, year on year, due to learning from failures and mistakes. Volumes also goes the same way, as you lean back production, reduce cost and increase throughput.

However, margins will determine what trade-off a you want to make as a company for your product, based on the market you're going after.

Short answer is - the spectrum is far wider than it was before for quality and cost. Depending on what you're willing to pay, you can get extremely high quality or extremely low quality.

If your benchmark is a single product in a specific domain,and this increase in spectrum sees that your benchmark product fell right at the top of the quality - it then *appears* that quality has fallen overall.

Conversely, if your single product in a specific domain was poor to begin with, and the spectrum has increased, then you'll think quality has overall increased.

Therefore, your perception of the evolution of quality is relative. Therefore, using specific examples to compare against is likely to cause disagreement.

Less crap in older times.

Yes but see point 1

It was repaired too, not thrown out.

Because it was expensive. And also related to point 3 - more complex stuff is more difficult to repair - but often better in use.

Well put rickon, that's what I was getting at.

However, margins will determine what trade-off a you want to make as a company for your product, based on the market you're going after.

In 1930 the only market for TVs was high value for rich people. That's why they were made in mahogany cabinets. Poor people didn't get mahogany, they got nothing.

Now there are still £10k tellies for rich people, but the poor can now get one for £120.

I refer you to hope pro 2 evo hubs.

Cars are certainly better.. Mainly Japanese ones though. Not Citroën or Peugeot.

So I'm on the fence.

It's difficult because we have a throwaway culture, I'd rather resole a nice pair of shoes rather buy new ones.

Chuckles at "old timers". 😀

I don't think it's as straight forward as that - yeah back in the day stuff was made more serviceable even little things like toasters would use more generic parts and when they broke down you can fix them or have a man do it for you so yeah you could make them last longer - these days not so much, but improved manufacturing methods mean that even cheap crap will do what it's meant to do for a decent amount of time before it fails.

There are things about now, especially domestic stuff that is the best of both - well made and serviceable the Mieles of the world and you can still buy very good quality furniture that will last generations.

It's difficult because we have a throwaway culture

Really? People in the past repaired stuff because they had to - they couldn't afford new stuff. Because new stuff was so expensive, it was worth paying someone to repair it.

Pepole haven't changed, jsut their economic situation.

Yeh, built in redundancy..

Central heating boiler broke down? needs a new PCB that costs about 50p to make.

That'll be £200 to you.

I'm not sure how true this is but i am of the belief that white goods manufacturing had a sweet spot in the early-mid 90's when all the niggles and faults were ironed out and the manufacturers were feeling rather smug with themselves.......until they realised that the quality of their products was so good that they never broke down, they never needed repairing, they never needed replacing, so since then they have deliberately built in a working cycle of redundancy so you have to buy new items.

I moved into my council bungalow back in 1993 at 21yrs old, i still have the original fridge, original freezer, original cooker and i only had to replace my original washing machine last year when there was a low power issue feed into my house when the machine was running which slowed the motor right down and it went bang, the electronics/pcb board also went pop, it also burnt out the motor in my Kitchenaid coffee grinder which i was using at the time - it slowed right down then went bang and burned out, all the house lights dimmed right down but thankfully nothing else was damaged.

You can still fix toasters btw, they are very simple. You can fix all sorts. I fixed our microwave for example, turntable stopped working. In the past, most people would've paid someone to fix it because it would've cost the equivalent of about £500, so it was worth a £60 repair job. But now the same thing only costs £80, so it's not. And the fact they cost £80 is good in many ways because everyone can own one and get the benefit. (Ok so it's not good for the environment but that's another topic).

Would you like to hear about old Hoover washing machines? Mine coped with nappies, at one time both kids were in nappies. Needed repairing several times each year, regular as clockwork.

I've mentioned before that, imo, Miele products went downhill yet 20 years or so ago they were good quality and reliable.

It's difficult because we have a throwaway culture, I'd rather resole a nice pair of shoes rather buy new ones.

This is really interesting. We're coming out of an age of mega-large organisations that produce huge volumes of low quality products. To an age of small start-ups, who can service the unique needs of super-niche markets.

You want a pair of shoes that'll last forever, and are just resoled? You'll be able to find someone already owning that niche, either right now, or very soon in the future.

Without being too future-casting, quality is likely to become a moot point in the near future, as we move away from ownership and into access. We're seeing this in media consumption, vehicle use, services, and it'll start to edge into other facets in our lives - clothing and leisure etc.

Why would you be concerned with quality, if you don't own anything, only access it for a day? The next day the clothes you wore are cleaned or repaired, and ready for use by someone else, and a brand new set of clothes are ready for you in your wardrobe looking brand new.

Quality becomes the sole concern of the provider, not the consumer.

[quote=rickon ]Quality becomes the sole concern of the provider, not the consumer.
I see what you did there....

so since then they have deliberately built in a working cycle of redundancy so you have to buy new items.

I don't believe that.

In the 90s washing machines had clockwork controllers that had millions of intricate mechanical parts that were doomed to fail. Now they have chips, which will work forever more or less.

What happens is that they got the reliability nailed, so they start being more ambitious with their designs and they reach the acceptable standard of reliability that people accept. They no longer compete on reliability, because people will care more about the features than if it lasts 15 or 20 years.

But that doesn't mean they are designing them deliberately to break.

back in 1993 at 21yrs old, i still have the original fridge, original freezer, original cooker and i only had to replace my original washing machine last year

How much did they call cost?

Pepole haven't changed, jsut their economic situation.

Theres another economic situation though. Natural selection selects against manufacturers of quality, serviceable, repairable goods. If you make a product that lasts forever you'll run out of people to sell it to and you'll run out of vendors prepared to sell it.

A classic case in point - the good old fashioned milk float. They were genuinely ever-lasting and ever-servicable. So much so the manufacturer was out of business decades before the floats were out of service. The ones you remember from the 70s and 80s were floats from the 50s and 60s that the dairys had just put new bodies on. The company that had built them - as successful as the floats were - was long gone.

So whats the point - economically - of making or selling a product that loses you a customer?

I think today though - even though we're increasingly a service based economy we're also a culture that loathes paying for service - we hate the idea of paying for service maintenance or repair so we're drawn to products that promise to be maintenance free - even if that results in them also being un-maintainable and unserviceable. We'd rather buy a new 'thing' than give any of our hard-earned to one of the 'middlemen' that gets between us and 'stuff'.

Mine coped with nappies, at one time both kids were in nappies. Needed repairing several times each year, regular as clockwork.

We put reusable nappies in our Hotpoint, without a soak or anything; it worked fine, and still does - 10 years old.

Fair point molgrips, but there's still a disparity in society that punishes the poor.

Lets take shoes for example, an affluent person can buy a £100 pair nice leather shoes that will easily last 5 years.

Add on 50 quid for a resole, and their shoes cost £30 per year.

A cheap pair of fake leather shoes from tkmaxx cost £30 and might last 6 months because they don't have a hundred quid to buy a decent pair of shoes. They are paying double at £60 per year, because they are not in a financial position to be buying quality foot wear. Unless it's on finance through a catalogue company that will rinse them on interest

Natural selection selects against manufacturers of quality, serviceable, repairable goods.

So they stop making milk floats and start making something else...? Something that is more likely these days perhaps with companies being owned by bigger parents and their capabilities being shared.

Fair point molgrips, but there's still a disparity in society that punishes the poor.

Oh of course - being poor isn't fun, but I suspect it's better than it used to be.

At least you can HAVE shoes now even if you only have £30 in your pocket. My mum used to teach kids in the 60s who came to school barefoot. Not sure if it happens now but I haven't heard of it.

So whats the point - economically - of making or selling a product that loses you a customer?

Adobe Photoshop.

You used to buy the software, and own it. If you wanted new features, you bought a new copy and scrapped the old.

The problem with that, is that you can't guarantee your customers today will be your customers tomorrow. It's a one time cost, and sale.

Adobe now lease their software and support, with upgrades, you never actually own the software. You pay for access.

If you could genuinely build a washing machine that would last forever and be easily upgradable, then you could lease it to everyone. Why would you pay a large one off fee, when you could pay a very low monthly cost to always have the very best washer? The benefits of scale would mean the cost would be low for the consumer, but the provider would make good margin.

Note: this is a different model to radio rentals.

So they stop making milk floats and start making something else...?

well presumably theres already someone else making something else and if their product is ever-servicable then their market is shrinking too.

The general living standards are generally higher, I'm not trying to say otherwise.
It just stinks that those who can least afford, get punished with bad deals.

well presumably theres already someone else making something else

There's always something else to make, or something to make better.

Businesses fail when they don't progress.

How much did they call cost?

Seeing as i had no money at the time (much the same as now) i guess i would have bought the cheapest possible.

My tricity bendix aeris cooker has had a new oven element and only 3 of 4 hotplates still work, the grill element went pop a few years ago but i never used it really so not worth replacing, my zanussi freezer still works fine for my single person life needs along with my Zanussi fridge, i do give the rear compressor and cooling/heating elements a clean/hoover out every so often though as dust can be a killer.

I have went through 4 espresso machines in 24 years though so i'm still searching for that one example that just works, my current kitchenaid artisan dual boiler (basically a dual gaggia) is desperately in need of a service as the steam wand leaks, the temp dials do not work and i can't trust it to leave it switched on.

I have a Miele dishwasher: it's lasted quite well. Except for the filter which now comes apart. I can live with it because a new filter was £65 when I asked. A Bosch fridge/freezer went a bit funny. A new door seal, £75 delivered, didn't fix it. It's been replaced by separate fridge and freezer, John Lewis's cheapest. If anything goes wrong they'll be binned.

For me quality was important, but now I fear the cost of professional repair. The price of spares seems extortionate, it may have been worsened by exchange rates dropping. So I buy cheap and expect to throw away, with zero brand loyalty. Except for bikes.

my current kitchenaid artisan dual boiler (basically a dual gaggia) is desperately in need of a service as the steam wand leaks, the temp dials do not work and i can't trust it to leave it switched on.

I'll have it off you? 🙂

Ha!, not a chance..........I only bought it as I was perfectly happy with the quality of espresso from my gaggia baby class but as that was a single boiler machine it annoyed me I had to wait till it heated up for milk steaming duties so I bought the kitchenaid with the dual gaggia innards 5 years ago, at a minimum of 3 double espressos/day x 365 days year x 5 years = 5000+ at a minimum for myself not to mention the amount made for guests.....I hate to think how much I've spent on coffee beans at £10week.

I just need to find somewhere in Glasgow/Edingburgh area where I can drop it off for servicing, I could buy the parts and do it myself but I'm not entirely sure what parts I need

There is a device called a cafetiere.

They are cheap too.

You're welcome.

The fact that theres a lot of cheap product available these days can make it look as though everything is crap quality but if you're happy to spend the same relative amount as twenty, thirty or forty years ago you'll get a superior product in almost every area except housing.

Furniture used to be a major purchase, so a months salary on a sofa wouldn't be unusual If you spend a months salary on a sofa now you'll get something just as good. Same with lots of other products.

There is a device called a cafetiere.

I'm aware of cafetières but to suggest that a cafetière Is similar to an espresso machine is akin to comparing a cheap catalogue bike to an expensive bike, sure they both do the same essential thing but in as far as the wheels go round that is where the simarilities end.

Your welcome 8)

In the past repair was cheaper , or alot lower percentage of the replacement cost. So you called out the repair man and paid £30 for a new spring in your washing machine .
Same man , newer van , same job is now £90. The washing machine itself costs the same, although wages have risen .
This makes the 'replace V repair ' question lean toward replace. Alsp , dila in the mistrust that as it has broken once it must be on its last legs and therefore next month something else will fail ( it wont ) , and then add in the fact women love spending money on new , white and shiney goods the swingometer swings toward replace.

There is also the availablility of credit factor. In the olden days you had to have £350 in your bank to go out and buy a wwashing machine. Now you can be £10,000 in personnal debt and go out and buy a new washing machine.

It's not really an argument . It's too subjective based on your choices.

I would say there is a lot of cheap crap. Can't avoid it as it's too expensive to manufacture the good stuff compared to what the masses earn and what they perceive as value. However, where the good stuff exists, HebcoTro, Hope, Turner and other boutique examples if you can afford them it's difficult to not yearn for a world like this.

Cheap fills a gap though and ticks things over sometimes.

I avoid cheap where I can though as it's often false economy and somebody is usually being exploited. That said I.T products has made it all a bit tricky.

I've almost always regretted some cheap stuff but never regretted buying expensive or good value.

People's mindset is generally go cheap. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I reckon some of the world would be better off not importing so much and paying more for their home grown stuff. That said if houses were cheaper and wages higher this would be easier.

There is a device called a cafetiere.

They are cheap too.

To paraphrase Mick Dundee "You could drink that shit".

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. John Ruskin

When I started driving many years ago I remember spending a huge amount of time fixing things on my cars (all sorts of makes), when they wouldn't start or something broke, or having to call the AA having walked miles to find a phone box. Doesn't happen these days so that's an improvement. Much as I have tried to instill a knowledge of maintenance (not just of cars but anything) in my kids, just don't seem that interested, I guess because stuff is easier just to replace. Or they just look stuff up on youtube, which I agree is very handy - wonder if anyone still uses Haynes manuals for fixing their car?

I reckon some of the world would be better off not importing so much and paying more for their home grown stuff.

That's great if you have home grown stuff of course. I built a bike a few years ago with aim of have as much UK built stuff on it as possible but didn't get far and my choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at all.

Is it the fact that much modern stuff is more complicated and thus not repairable that gives the idea of poor quality? Tellys are a good example.
I would also argue that to some extent about cars. To me, anything that has a built in disposal period is poor quality. I can mend every part of my Land Rover but not my Suzuki that's 25 years newer.

I am very much against the idea that people want to update so that is encouraged. A desire to have a new phone/car/bike is pathetic compared with the greater good of the world surely? The idea that things can be bought new cheaply just to pander to the whims of more people is terrible.

Bike parts (as we on a cycling forum) have generally dropped of in quality because performance has become more important than durability. I for one see the length of time something lasts as the main definition of quality. Others don't . 11 speed chains don't keep their performance level as long as old 5 speed ones did and show a more noticeable drop off in performance.

As most older tech worked well enough I see so called improvements that don't last as long as a backward step. Modern tellys are not better than old ones.

"choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at all".
And the problem with that is??
Its the modern assumption that we should have every choice and access to what ever we want, be it chain rings or cycle paths, that has created our greedy and unsustainable society. I wish I was brave enough to make a greater effort to avoid more of it.

My dad would regularly spend a Sunday making sure his Cortina would make it through the rest of the month. Adjusting this and filling that, playing with points and so on

The fact that we don't have to do that anymore is clearly a step forward