[Closed] Secondary School - detentions

Are there no parents at all on there backing the school? Let them get on with it.

When the pitchforks are out out and the mob has formed no rational argument can overcome indignation

I very much doubt that teachers are sitting about trying to think of crappy rules so that they can punish kids and work late supervising detention. I will admit that once labelled as disruptive or a problem that kid has a much harder time of it.

@Richie, what you mean like somebody not losing their driving licence due to the 'hardship' it would cause them when somebody else with the same offence loses theirs as they cant use the 'hardship' loophole?

I have to disagree. If I knew I would have to pay more bus money/walk instead (consequence) due to my own misbehavior (action) then I wouldn't do the action! If this eventually gets through to the school kids perhaps they may think about their actions a little more.

@Funk, thanks for that, got me good there! 🙂

@Daz, while I understand, and actually agree with what you are saying to a point, in this case I think this needs to be worked towards. Yes it is a good thing to question authority where reasonable (I am a union rep after all!), but at this point a base line has to be set where the set rules are obeyed by everyone to begin to fix the issues that are present. I also don't think in this case you could argue there is any misuse of authority as what is happening is to bring the school back on the right track, not simply to punish for punishments sake.

Detentions should kept to lunch times and breaks to level the effect it has on the pupils.

Given the disparity in distances and methods used to get to school I would say that this is a fair solution.

My daughter has just moved up to year 7 - new secondary school, new teachers, new environment...and new rules! They have a very strict "positive discipline" system in place and, as parents, we were given a pamphlet explaining exactly how it works. Broadly speaking:

- Kids get stamps in their planner for good behaviour. This is all they should ever get. But of course, it doesn't always work like this. Should correction be required, then they'll get...

- Verbal Feedback - A note is made in the planner. Two of these and you'll get...

- "A comment" - this is a written telling off in your planner for which the parent has to acknowledge receipt. You can always get one of these for a more serious infraction. Get a few of these in a term and...

- Detention. Initially, after school for 60 minutes. This is pre-booked so the parents know it's happening. If this isn't working...

- Isolation. Effectively, removed from normal classes and you'll work on your own all day.

Beyond this, it's various levels of suspension. The school are keen to point out that detentions are rare and isolations almost unheard of, but the threat is there. As to be expected, at the start of a new year with a new bunch of kids, they've been exceptionally strict and my daughter was given an immediate "comment" for reading a library book in her maths class. The teacher had told them that once they had finished working they could read quietly, but my daughter didn't realise this meant "read the maths book" so was head down in her latest novel! She was devastated (she's a good kid), and it was a genuine misunderstanding, but lessons were learned and she knows now that she has to keep her nose clean.

This led to her backing down quickly when asking the Design and Technology teacher why this had been marked wrong and the teacher told her that the "only correct answer is 0.5" and told her to stop arguing.

She told me when she got home and we went through the paper, I complemented her on her overall mark (82%) and we laughed at this answer. We agreed that sometimes it was enough to know that you are right in your own mind and that you don't need to win every battle. Still, it must be said that I will now refer to this teacher as "The Woodwork Teacher" from now on 😉

I don't blame the staff for being strict - you need the kids to understand quickly that these are the rules for their new school - and while I might disagree with both actions, I will continue to support the school as, frankly, that's what I should be doing as a parent. In fact, the maths teacher has since become a favourite, so no grudges have been held and I think this is how it should be.

1/2 litre is 500ml but 500g isn't allowed to be 1/2 kg

I'd be fummin' all over facebook for that! As said above, know what battles are worth shedding blood over 😉

"Schools aren’t the judicial system or a democracy."

Agreed, they are for more of a dictatorship set-up.

"I guess some peope just like to raise little robots, never question anything, know your place etc etc."

I'd say that's pretty accurate in a lot of cases. "BE SUBSERVANT"

what you mean like somebody not losing their driving licence due to the ‘hardship’ it would cause them when somebody else with the same offence loses theirs as they cant use the ‘hardship’ loophole?

I have to disagree. If I knew I would have to pay more bus money/walk instead (consequence) due to my own misbehavior (action) then I wouldn’t do the action! If this eventually gets through to the school kids perhaps they may think about their actions a little more.

What you are arguing is that because one system is a joke (The hardship defence tends to suit those with best solicitors), that it is perfectly all right to set or perpetuate a system that discriminates against a significant proportion of those it is intended to govern (Sorry I’m working under the misapprehension that schools are supposed to be enlightened places).  The schools in our area have created fairer alternative systems largely because the local catchment areas are so big and public transport is so inadequate.  Behaviour hasn’t deteriorated and as far as I can tell the world hasn’t ended.

Was the change in policy made public to parents before this new harderline was introduced ....

Was the change in policy made public to parents before this new harderline was introduced

What difference would it make? The state of school provision in this country is so poor that parents would still have to send their kids to a school even if they don't agree with it's discipline policies (as I did). And seeing as this zero-tolerance hardline discipline approach is widely used then in many cases the only alternative is home schooling which is clearly not an option for 99.9% of parents.

Was the change in policy made public to parents before this new harderline was introduced ….

Yes, absolutely, in letters home (FB complaint, my kid never gives me the letters he's given, FB answer - well get them to then!) and in any case all letters are posted on the school website (FB complaint, I don't have time to search for that stuff, FB answer "GGGGAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!")

The head teacher also set up a series of drop in surgeries for parents to go and discuss the changes face to face..... during and after school hours. Of course if you didn't bother to check your kids bag for the letter or look on the website you wouldn't have known, but that was the school's fault too.

So then when the changes come into effect there was concerted FB wailing of 'why weren't we told?' and 'I didn't agree to this!' and the likes of what we see now.

the local catchment areas are so big and public transport is so inadequate

FWIW the catchment area is pretty small; using the 'as the crow flies' measurement from our house to school gate is about 750m and my eldest was only admitted 4 years ago on appeal, we didn't get inside the first cut by proximity. Sure there are some that for various reasons opt to travel (eg: moved house since) but the majority of kids are easy walking distance.

What difference would it make?

see above, would at least stop the 'I didn't agree to this' because at least you could have discussed with the head first before 'agreeing to it' (grudgingly or otherwise)

I think I'd have words about the 1/2 kg thing as well - even the teacher ticked it initially then changed his mind. Unless there's a specific answer format that's been instructed earlier in the paper.

Convention is that metric measurements are not denoted in fractions so teacher is right. Question paper is bad in that it previously gives a metric value as a fraction!

As for concept of questioning everything - yes, it's healthy to have a questioning attitude. It's also a good life skill to know how to pick your battles!

Convention is that metric measurements are not denoted in fractions so teacher is right. Question paper is bad in that it previously gives a metric value as a fraction!

As for concept of questioning everything – yes, it’s healthy to have a questioning attitude. It’s also a good life skill to know how to pick your battles!

Exactly, and this was the conversation we had. No, I'm not going to raise a fuss over something so silly (it was initially marked correct by one of the kids, and the teacher overruled it) but would prefer my daughter understand it in her own mind so she has the confidence of her own convictions - not to stand up and argue every time she thinks she's right, but to be able to be confident enough in her own skills that she can ignore wrong information being delivered to her, even if from a position of authority. I think this is an important thing for kids to learn.

@Richie, that sounds great and if it works then there's no reason to keep it up. What I don't agree on is the fact that it is discrimination. "For this action, this is the consequence" nice easy message, easy to understand and if you don't want the consequence, don't do the action.

If anything you could almost argue that the alternative system you are talking about could be classed as positive discrimination, due to the punishment for the same offence being different. that being said, if it works then so be it, that's the required outcome at the end of the day!

While you are correct, the fact that those with the best lawyers tend to be the ones who make use of the defense usually don't need to, the fact that the defense even exists, IMHO, is totally wrong. Which is exactly the same viewpoint I am using on this issue.

<p>

 confident enough in her own skills that she can ignore wrong information being delivered to her, even if from a position of authority

I agree with everything except this. Never ignore wrong info, that should always be challenged though how you choose to challenge it is again, picking your battle.

It's a really difficult situation for kids. Let's not kid ourselves that school is like a democracy - it's not, especially when it's a new school and you're only 11! And much as we parents would like to defend injustices for our kids, we can't - at least, not always. The point I was trying to make is that you can teach your kids independent thought - this doesn't mean that they will be an argumentative PITA in class, but it does mean that they will intelligently challenge what they are told and, even when told to "sit down and shut up", they will still hold fast to their convictions.

In this particular case, my daughter had just come off the back of a written comment for reading in another class and she was absolutely petrified of getting another, so this made her restrain her naturally argumentative nature. TBH, this makes a change as she will usually argue about anything way beyond the point of reason! I suspect that, given a level playing field, she may well have gone to see the teacher afterwards, but it was first lesson in a new class, with a new teacher in the first week of a new school. I think she probably did what any new year 7 would do and come home to moan at her dad about it 🙂

I think I’d have words about the 1/2 kg thing as well

You must have too much time on your hands!

You must have too much time on your hands!

Perhaps a spare 1/2 hour?

Perhaps a spare 1/2 hour?

30mins 0/10 please see me after school for 1/2 an hour 😉

You must have too much time on your hands!

God forbid anyone wants their child taught properly.

God forbid anyone wants their child taught properly.

Make your mind up!!

Convention is that metric measurements are not denoted in fractions so teacher is right

<p>Good selective quoting there.</p><p>

Convention is that metric measurements are not denoted in fractions so teacher is right. Question paper is bad in that it previously gives a metric value as a fraction!

Proper teaching isn’t just telling someone they are wrong with absolutely no context as to why,

Thanks for that tips, whats next the squirrelking guide on how to make tea?

Detentions should kept to lunch times and breaks to level the effect it has on the pupils.

Given the disparity in distances and methods used to get to school I would say that this is a fair solution.

The evidence says that a break in the school day, to get active, outdoors, social and play is one of the biggest improvements we can make in education. Taking away break and lunch has a measureable negative impact on behaviour, engagement and attainment. Your suggestion means the 'naughty kid' is now more disruptive and lower achieving, requiring more teacher time and support so reducing other pupils attainment.

If only this teaching and school leadership lark was as easy as some parents seem to think it is.

I would love to see some parents put thier time where their mouth is and get into school for a week to see how things really are from behind both sides of the desk.

Pah, evidence, experts we dont need them!!

I would love to see some parents put thier time where their mouth is and get into school for a week to see how things really are from behind both sides of the desk.

Already did that back when I was at school 😉

By the same token, you're qualified to advise surgeons how to do their jobs because you had your tonsils out when you were younger 😉

Thanks for that tips, whats next the squirrelking guide on how to make tea?

Do you have anything to actually contribute to this discussion or are you just going to make snide remarks?

Do you have anything to actually contribute to this discussion

To a thread moaning about teachers from a bunch of people who have no idea what tgey are talking about? Not really no. I answered the op's valid original question, other than that I'm quite happy to laugh at the ignorance and entitlement  displayed!!

To a thread moaning about teachers from a bunch of people who have no idea what tgey are talking about? Not really no. I answered the op’s valid original question, other than that I’m quite happy to laugh at the ignorance and entitlement  displayed!!

I hope you're not including me in that sweeping statement!

I made it clear that my general point of view is to support the teaching staff, even when I disagree with them because that's my job as a parent. I'm not a teacher (although if they ever have a crashed 50TB database cluster, I'm their man!) so I know to keep my nose largely out of their job. That doesn't mean I can't discuss their work with my kids or agree certain approaches for them in class, but I'm not going to start stirring up trouble unless it's really needed - one written comment and one incorrectly marked question certainly do not justify this IMHO.

I hope you’re not including me in that sweeping statement!

Nope, teacher made an error I expect under the stress of 30 year 7's asking to go to the toilet, where their PE kits gone, can I borrow a ruler, I lost my lunch money etc etc. Talk to kid move on as you said. It was the poster who said they'd be contacting the school that made me giggle.

Heres a thought

https://www.teachthought.com/pedagogy/teacher-makes-1500-decisions-a-day/

By the same token, you’re qualified to advise surgeons how to do their jobs because you had your tonsils out when you were younger

I still have my tonsils 😀 but I’m going to take your advice at face value and set up my own surgery.

great idea. Just don't allow anyone to set up a Facebook 'Patients of Funkmasterp' page because that way lies frustration 😉

To a thread moaning about teachers from a bunch of people who have no idea what tgey are talking about?

I'm very supportive of teachers. Many of my mates, and some of my family are teachers. They mostly agree with me. They'd rather be teaching than enforcing stupid rules and then receiving the blowback from disgruntled parents. This seems to be a Secondary school problem. Both my kids loved school at primary, they'd complain if they had to miss a day due to illness or other reasons. Now they've both moved up to secondary and they're completely bored and resentful of it, and that's mostly a result of the authoritarian discipline culture which just didn't exist in primary. The end result of this is they put less effort into their work than they did previously, and are less interested in learning. That's not the fault of the teachers, but the culture that exists.

And don't get me started on the sexist PE policy! Bollywood dancing is not a sport.

Shikhar Dhawan begs to differ....

Bollywood dancing is not a sport.

No, but it is Physical, and you need Educating in how to do it...

Fitness training isn't a sport, but it's usually a module in core PE classes.

I think that highlights the issues. No Bollywood is not a sport. But someone has looked at the issues with teenage girls and difficulty in getting them to do exercise and seen that an initiative was shown to work and so has employed that method to engage a section of the school population with exercise.

Initiatives like this are rife and the issues they try to tackle multifaceted and need to take in a wide cross section of a school population. So saying it doesn't work for my son may be true but it might be working for 30girls for whom no other pe activity works.

Please note I'm latching onto this as a possible example, that from the outside seems daft but is a reasoned approach for the school.

Now they’ve both moved up to secondary and they’re completely bored and resentful of it, and that’s mostly a result of the authoritarian discipline culture which just didn’t exist in primary.

Or is it due to the narrow, time pressured curriculum which has no space for deeper investigation or thought?

Most public school or state grammars seem to have very strict rigid authoritarian rules but the kids seem keener to learn, wonder why?

Most public school or state grammars seem to have very strict rigid authoritarian rules but the kids seem keener to learn, wonder why?

Correlation does not imply causation.    I suspect keener to learn has at least as much to do with demographic differences in this particular case.  (Though I broadly agree with most of what you say otherwise)

Better teachers

Thanks to Daern's daughter's Woodwork teacher neither I, nor Daern's Daughter not half the people reading this thread will *ever* forget that metric measurements should not be denoted in fractions.

If that's not good teaching I don't know what is.

Better teachers

which in itself (rightly or wrongly) is also self fulfilling; according to A_A's link a teacher spends 15% of their time on behaviour and discipline, which will clearly be worse in some schools than in others. Yes, there will always be those that great teachers that will go to the most challenging schools because of a 'calling' but I understand completely why most want to go to a school where behaviour and discipline is good and as a result they can spend their time teaching and achieving good results for them and their pupils. And if as in the rest of life the 'best' get first pick of where to work, there will be a skewing of good teachers going to work in good schools and as a result those schools getting better, and v/v

Correlation does not imply causation.    I suspect keener to learn has at least as much to do with demographic differences in this particular case

That was my point

Better teachers

Maybe although seeing many who cannot hack behaviour in the state sector leave and be successful I'm not sure how you can define better to cover both situations. Mote settled is certainley the case from what I've seen