[Closed] Second Hand Bike Purchase - Seller Wont Refund

If it is a private sale I doubt you could do anything. eBay? Credit card?

How about a public outing of seller, resulting in kettles being switched on all over the country (Yorkshire) and a stream of calm advice and opinion will wash over the forum.

Through Pinkbike...

IIRC SOGA does not apply to private sales.

HOwever it should live up to his description.

I'd get some advice before going to court.

This is the advert and description. But as mentioned the photos do not at all represent its condition and there is no mention of a crack in a weld.

He also claims that all the bearings were replaced a month ago, but upon close inspection they have never been replaced and all were seized. Also the main swingarm axle is slack in the frame.

[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1201734/ ]Advert [/url]

SOGA does apply to private sales, but not all of it.

Section 13 applies - "provides that where the buyer is sold goods by description, the goods must correspond with this description"

The description states general wear and tear, not cracks and seized bearings when stated they are brand new...

I;ve posted my letter of intent so things are rolling.

How did you pay?

You bought a bike without actually getting up close and personal?

Sorry, I really feel for you considering the amount of cash involved, but I think this may be a tough lesson learnt - I sincerely hope you do manage to get some recompense though.

I paid by bank transfer after some checking etc.

Yeh I have learnt big time here and the worst part is the Lapierre dealers and importer will not sell me a new swingarm because Im not the original owner. Thats put me of that brand for life haha

Thanks for the help, its good to hear from another side

Not withstanding the original question, (which I hope is settled correctly)

Lapierre dealers and importer will not sell me a new swingarm because Im not the original owner.

How about just trying (I know) to get him to purchase (& pay for!) the swing arm?

Sure not ideal, but you'll save yourself stress and any unrecoverables costs you may incur from the legal avenue?

I'm gobsmacked about the importer's stance.

Even if I were to keep the bike I have been told by the importer that I can NOT buy a new swingarm as I am not the original owner. And thus I can NOT repair this bike at all.

does anyone know if or why this is so? and what parts of the frame it might apply to?

jockey wheel cage snapped while I was washing the bike

how do you manage that? did he use a half brick instead of a sponge?

Section 13 applies - "provides that where the buyer is sold goods by description, the goods must correspond with this description"

Firstly, remember that the statutory entitlement of quality and fitness for purpose only applies when buying from someone who is ‘acting in the course of a business’ i.e a second-hand car dealer. [b]You do not have any legal recourse as regards quality where you are buying through an individual who is selling an item as a one-off private sale (although they must have legal title and it must be as described in the advert)[/b].

[url= http://whatconsumer.co.uk/online-auction-sites/ ]Some stuff on on-line auctions too.[/url]
Go speak with a lawyer as they will have a better idea.
Good luck.

I can see why they (dealers) wouldn't honour a warranty, but can't for the life of me see why they wouldn't sell you a part. I mean, even if you didn't own the bike at all and wanted the swingarm for an art project, you should still be able to buy one, no?

Unless you're prepared to write the sale off, only ever pay on collection.

[url= http://welovelapierre.com/lapierre-owners-forum/lapierre-zesty/replacement-swing-arm/ ]A lead for you to follow maybe?[/url]

A lead for you to follow maybe?

Nice work!

Advert date is 19th Nov 2012, but the photos in the advert are showing as been taken on 23rd October 2011, according to the sidebar on the picture page.

This is part of the response and I have further from Hotlines.

From: We Love Mountains [mailto:info@welovemountains.com]
Sent: 23 November 2012 12:57

[This is just there policy and by selling a new part to a secondhand bike creates a new warranted part on an old
bike which becomes hard to police and there priority is to serving their customers.
]

Thats a very good lead indeed, many thanks and good find

No worries - to be honest, it came up on the first page of a Google search for Lapierre swingarm 8)

I can have a word if you want to forward on the details? We've had things go wrong before but the warranty guy's a good lad. He always does what he can.

pete AT [myusername] bikes.com

Jungle only sell SC spares to original owners.

Any help would be good, many thanks in advance...

Worth mentioning that Pinkbike despite being a bit of a thieves' paradise does take these things quite seriously, there's a thread to report thieves in and they'll often IP ban people. Doesn't help you but might help the next guy.

Oh- and if you've not already got an off-site copy of the ad, do so- the seller can edit it.

So you bought a bike having never seen it and the photo's are of a brand new bike, that you cant verify are genuine.

No wonder so many thieves sell bikes on ebay pinkbike etc if there are such mugs about.

Sancho - no need for that.

Jesus..

Jungle only sell SC spares to original owners

No they don't.

However, it seems like a strange policy from Hotlines. Little short sighted IMO.

I think this one is going to be a case of chalking it up to experience. Private sale = Caveat Emptor.

For what it's worth, chainstays come up fairly often on Ebay for Zesty's. IIRC the Spicy chainstay is identical too.

No Jungle sell spares if you provide the frame number.

Hotlines- should we buy your products if they are basically shed junk post first owner?

One thing that I have noticed lapierres have great reviews etc but sseem to wear....

However, it seems like a strange policy from Hotlines. Little short sighted IMO.

Quoting warranty concerns is a bit disingenuous. Imagine a car manufacturer or dealer trying that one on.

Compare and contrast with the likes of Turner, Ibis who seem more than happy to keep their frames going if there's an issue, even to the point of providing warranty support to subsequent owners.

I'm guessing this is a lapierre policy, not hotlines?

Its a terrible policy (if true). Something which I can't believe- the OP must have spoken to the wrong person (Security or reception?) rather than a Customer-focused intelligent person?

Hotlines- should we buy your products if they are basically shed junk post first owner?

It's worse than that. They're actually saying they will never sell anyone a new swing-arm (for example) unless you buy it with a new bike as it creates a clash of warranty ages. Idiots.

Smacks of someone who CBA doing their job at Hotlines.

Northwind

Thanks for the 'edit their ad' I have PDF'd the full page and each photo.

Just to show how sneaky this guy is he has hidden his profile on Linkedin. As the users of that site will know you can leave comments like many, but as he is self employed it would be a problem for him if bad comments were left

Swing arms aren't cheap are they? Even chainstays from Specialized is £100 for an old frame. So I imagine they wouldn't lose money.

This detracts from the OPs issue with the seller though. OP do you have his address? Look at the packaging/box- was there a sender address (his work address?). Anyway we can find?

Anyway we can find?

Oh Heavens to Bettsy!! The scourge of Warranty departments is saddling up.....

[img] [/img]

I tried to get a replacement swingarm for a secondhand Santa Cruz Bullet - I wasn't the original owner so wasn't allowed. Luckily my seller offered a full refund.

Doesn't helps the OP one bit though.

Oh Heavens to Bettsy!! The scourge of Warranty departments is saddling up.....

Cracking use of the phrase "Heavens to Bettsy!". Haven't heard that in ages.

Carry on.

I doubt the OP is going to get far on this through the courts unfortunately, not much he can do over and above naming & shaming unless he wants to take personal action...
As for Lapierre - that's a crap policy, I wonder if it's because they had so many failures they need to keep what stock they have for warranty replacements. I've owned a couple of Lapierres from new and really like them but lets face it they don't have the best rep on the Zesty - I really want to upgrade mine to a carbon front-end but I wouldn't touch a second-hand one with a bargepole, much less now it seems they shaft you on buying after market bits.

Can the OP's situation be a lesson for many people?

Please?

@ OP : Can you go down the small claims route? If the other party doesn't respond, you win by default (although someone on here will verify such matters)

EDIT: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

I doubt the OP is going to get far on this through the courts unfortunately, not much he can do over and above naming & shaming unless he wants to take personal action...

Eh?

If the bike is not at all as described/photograph, it's a clear case of misrepresentation. The remedy for misrep is to put the parties back in the position they were before the contract was formed. In this case, bike with seller, cash with buyer.

I reckon a judge would spend about 30 seconds working out if a misrep had happened. In which case, the OP would have judgement in his favour and would be able to recover from the seller. Plus costs. And, if the seller doesn't pay up and the debt is more than £750 (looks like it prob is), he could petition for the seller's bankruptcy.

Bloody internet lawyers. Grr.

A movie-loving, bike-riding web developer from the Midlands, UK.

This should have sounded the alarm bells! Probably drives an Audi...

He didn't do a very good job of hiding on the interwebz.

Anybody on Twitter?

https://twitter.com/trovster

And this is his (current) web development agency ( From his person twitter to https://twitter.com/madebysurface which he freelances for .... )

http://www.madebysurface.co.uk/

His name is on the above domain ^^ which has a residential address registered to it, in Warkwickshire (CV8...)

The address of MadeBySurface is on the bottom of their web page (ST17...)

Perhaps a polite email to the sellers boss might work?? Or the threat of an email??

Thanks guys, some great feedback and support 😀

I tweeted him and got this response;

[i]thank you for linking me that. I have tried to resolve the issue with him, offering a discount as a good will gesture. No luck.[/i]

personally, I'd go down the legal route, as above you have a very good case.

I doubt the OP is going to get far on this through the courts unfortunately, not much he can ...

Have you actually ever taken anyone to court for a small claim? If it's such a clear misrepresentation (photos taken way before the actual sale, condition completely different from the condition they claimed), then it doesn't matter that it's a private sale - it wasn't like he had a chance to pick it up and inspect it - he was given photos of it.

Just that I've done a small claims track case, and it is an absolute piece of piss, plus very cheap to do. People who say that you shouldn't bother standing up for yourself when you've been ripped off, are a big part of the problem - scumbags who rip people off will only stop ripping people off if they get made to pay them back.

The moment time is up on the letter, put the case in to the small claims track. Once the case is in, he can pay you (including the costs), or he can mess around trying to fight it, and then almost certainly lose assuming the stuff about photos being from the wrong date etc is true.

If the judgement is for over £600 and he has already decided to make it hassle by fighting the court case, and you're willing to risk sixty quid on it, call these people
http://thesheriffsoffice.com/services/high_court_enforcement
they did a brilliant job of enforcing my county court judgement - they turn up unannounced, with a court order and a debit card reader and are very persuasive in terms of encouraging people to pay (and have powers to seize goods if they don't want to pay). In my case it was a small business called Derby Car Centre who had sold me a car that had been doctored to disguise signs of a serious engine fault, and they paid the judgement on the spot in full. If it even works against second hand car dealers, it should work against pretty much anyone as long as they actually have the money (or goods worth that money, which given how much he talks about his various Apple products on his twitter he almost certainly has).

The bonus of court enforcement is that it costs them serious extra money (they pay all court fees, plus travel costs and charges for the enforcers, plus interest etc.), which teaches them a lesson (Derby Car Centre ending up paying the best part of £3000, for a judgement on a car that they'd sold me for £1800).

He sold a frame with a crack in it.

Say he didn't know but now does- he would say 'it wasn't there when I sold/inspected- is horrified etc.

Say he didn't know but tough mate- you could have done it.

He KNEW it was there.... thats different kettle of fish.

If I sold a frame and it transpired it was cracked I'd be bloody horrified.

joemarshall - nice work.

When the various court tracks were introduced around 15 years ago, it was designed precisely so that people could get simple access to legal redress, rather than having to chalk it down to experience.

Did he post it to you?

shirley he posts on here

A movie-loving, bike-riding web developer from the Midlands, UK.

You'll probebly find him, his audi and new Orange 5 up at Birches Valley, Cannock this Sat morning.

OP - check your household insurance. You may well have legal cover. Hounding him through the courts would therefore cost you nothing.

FWIW, Cotic refused to sell me a replacement swingarm- they insisted on sending it for free. (no warranty, second owner)

Interesting thread this- everyone knows there's scumbags on the internet but I'm amazed there are bike companies that won't sell you components.

Interesting thread this- everyone knows there's scumbags on the internet but I'm amazed there are bike companies that won't sell you components.

I know. Amazed. Its almost as though they see it as nowt to do with them as the person didn't buy the frame from them.

Instead of thinking its another part/£markup and/or potential to wow a new customer to the fold for future frame sales or add ons (if its a distributor).

Scamper - Member
You'll probebly find him, his audi and new Orange 5 up at Birches Valley, Cannock this Sat morning.

🙂 It would appear that you know him well... the last photo on his flickr account is Castle Hill - Cannock Chase!!

I could be a proper stalker 😳

joemarshall - Thats really good information and even as my case stands now he does not have a leg to stand on.

Leku - Good idea and I will look into it tonight.

Flowerpower - Happy stalking....lol

Heres a snippet from one of his emails today:

But, as we can't seem to agree and you don't want to send the bike
back before I transfer a full refund — and I can't be sure you haven't
done any adverse work on the bike — I think the only avenue left for
this is, as you keep mentioning, is the legal route

As is Im going to send him the bike back at my expense and without a refund, stupid fool....

For the sort of money your looking at I'd take a day off work and drive to his work place VHS gives you cash, you give him bike. Take a friend in case he starts playing up. 🙂

Mate, I'd [b]take[/b] it back and get cash in hand

Write an email to his boss, asking permission for him to take an hour off on a Tuesday afternoon as it's the last opportunity before taking legal action to reclaim fraudulent money owed to you....

😉

scaredypants - plus one!!

Option 1: Scare him with legal jargon into buying you a new swingarm or refunding (lie if you have to, at this point it's the lesser of two evils and a liars only as good as his lie.) Tell him you are taking him to court and that a legal rep will contact him at his address if he doesn't deal with you directly. Tell him, (and sound confident) that if taken to court he will inevitably lose because he has broken the law by falsely advertising the item and has agreed to a legal contract in selling the bike. Tell him also that it is easier, and cheaper for him if the issue is dealt with out of court. Don't push your luck and be unreasonable, but get back what you lost. Don't expect any more than that or you will come away with nothing.

Option 2: Go to the bank and say you've been scammed, get them to reverse the money.

Option 3: What scaredypants said. Do you have any mates who play rugby/who are rowers? Don't use spindly little road cycling pushovers. Turn up at his house with a gaggle of mates waiting near the car (visible but not on his property), with the bike - put the bike in front of him so he knows you're not mugging him and DEMAND your money back on the spot. Tell him you aren't leaving until he does it, and be firm and confident until he says he's calling the police. This could be the coup de gras - take proof of being ripped off, tell your mates to back off and wait for the police. Show them the evidence, be VERY POLITE and pleasant, show them proof of purchase, payment, the photos and the broken bike and they will likely tell him to pay you back within x days or they will write up a court summons. With this combination he will probably say OK ill go get the money out of the bank. Go with him and get it.

Option 4: Failing the above, and with all legal avenues tried, smear the shit out of the prick. Find out where he works, what his name is, and make sure he's the most hated person on the bike forums if just for a day. Might stop him from doing it again.

nukeproofriding -

We've already established who he is, where he lives and where he works 😉

Fantastic 🙂 win win win. OP - get on it boy! 1300 squids await you.

Dear god! BedwetterTrackWorld strikes again. You've got some bloke who's clearly sold you a pup, and had you over good and proper for a significant wedge, and doesn't seem reet bothered about rectifying the situation. Far from it!

You know where he lives, and we've established he's a web developer, not a cage fighter! And you still haven't done what needs to be done. I'd say a huge dose of MTFU is in order, and you know the rest....

Result.....

Since the rest of the bike is good and there are ways of getting a swingarm/chainstay he offered £250 refund and I have accepted as I see this as fair.

Many thanks for all the help and some of which I have saved...

Have a word with this guy he deals with any scammer / dodgy dealers on pinkbike

http://www.pinkbike.com/u/psyclist/

I have just posted a link to this thread on his pinkbike profile 😆

Have a word with this guy he deals with any scammer / dodgy dealers on pinkbike

http://www.pinkbike.com/u/psyclist/

I have just posted a link to this thread on his pinkbike profile

Thank you for that posting, I have been in touch with this guy and he has also been a good help.

Many thanks

Where are you going to get a swingarm from? £250 seems decent. well done.

So, let me be sure I have this correct. You were prepared to bring the full force of the law down on this guy after he offered you a £200 refund on a £1300 bike due to it being knackered, and you not being able to get the part needed to fix it (for any price, it would seem). He then sees what you are about to do so offers you another £50 and you capitulate?

Wow. Just wow.

Edit: He even offered you a full refund if you'd got the bike back to him!!!!!! Even bigger wow.

Guys, there was no way I was going to send a bike back to anyone without the refund in my bank. This was going to be an extra expense on my side also.

After a great deal of help from this thread I could see that I can have the bike I wanted in the first place, a means of getting the rear end sorted and enough funds to cover the costs.

Yes I was prepared to go the full length of a small claims court as should anyone if they feel that is required. But how long would the bike sit there unused and the funds sit in the sellars bank before the court date is set and then the outcome that may not be as desired...

It might be worth me saying - "Seller won't refund" would be incorrect as the seller would have refunded you if you posted the bike back to him. If I brought a product from a shop I wasn't happy with it would be ME who would be expected to pay the postage to return the item.

Also, Warren, as you picked the bike up from the seller you did have time to check it over for any defects, ride it, and ask any questions before driving 6 hours home.

Fair enough, ask for you money back, or even take the legal route if you wish - but this form of 'cyber bullying' and scare tactics is not the way to go about resolving an issue of this nature.

Congratulations of your refund.

It might be worth me saying - "Seller won't refund" would be incorrect as the seller would have refunded you if you posted the bike back to him. If I brought a product from a shop I wasn't happy with it would be ME who would be expected to pay the postage to return the item.

Also worth pointing out regardless of fault no-one on earth refunds before receipt of returned item.

Still, you got the result you wanted, so, happy days 🙂

If I brought a product from a shop I wasn't happy with it would be ME who would be expected to pay the postage to return the item.

Not if bought over the phone, by post, or over the internet. Wonderful things, distance selling regs...

Thanks for your [b]text message[/b] fatface34, asking me to mind my own business. I suggest all other users do the same!

The other users views are non bias and you are his friend, get it...