[Closed] Sean Penn hates us. Should I support The Falklands?

How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

You mean Islos de Blanco?

How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

Like emigrating to the IoW and learning to tango with dusky South American girls!

How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

For what reason? If there was a legitimate claim i'd at least listen.

My main point of thought is, how far do we go back in history to lay these claims?
Do the French still have reason to claim Britain as their own, or Sweden/Norway/Denmark even?

If Argentina never actually 'owned' the Falklands, why should we give it back? (or give it back at all?)

As I mentioned, I really don't know many facts but i'm very interested to learn

I think there is a valid argument for self determination here.

In the past the islanders have been offered money by the Argentinians to give up their sovereignty, but have declined. They have been invaded (note: not in any way liberated from an oppressive UK), and seem comfortable with being who they are.

My personal opinion is that the possibility of a lot of oil nearby has an awful lot to do with the claims. That and it is a sure fire way to get a country behind you in times of trouble ("Remember those islands? How the nasty <country> beat us last time? Well, let's get them this time!").

Sean Penn doing this has not helped calm things down at all. I like his films, but he should really keep out of stuff he has no call to be involved in.

How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

They can claim the moon if they want

How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

If they'd owned it before the UK even existed and all the residents wanted to remain part of Argentina then I'd think it fair enough.

'How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?'

One of the least educated posts on any subject I've ever read on this site.

And on the subject of islanders and self-determination, let's not forget those displaced inhabitants of Diego Garcia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia

How would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

Argentina did have ownership of the islands in the past. Its all a bit disputed and a long time ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands#History_to_1982

Molgrips - the residents of the islands are not British - they are falkanders

As well as Deigo Garcia there is also HongKong for parallels

The point is - whatever either government wants - the people of the FI have a right to self determination. Its democracy they can vote and they have. Oil, history etc etc has no relevence to today.

And on the subject of islanders and self-determination, let's not forget those displaced inhabitants of Diego Garcia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia

Always good to bring this up and it's a crime how little it gets mentioned by the mainstream press when discussing the Falklands.

as i was kicking about when this kicked off.. most people in the uk thought the falklands were somewhere near the hebrides..

most of the inhabitants of the island seem to be relatives of former whalers etc ..of a mix of nationalities.. frankly though if they have a democratic system and they do and they choose self determination.. which they do and they seek membership of a union which they do and the other party is willing which it is.. then thats democracy god love it..

argentina can play he said she said for 1000 yrs but if billy malvinas chooses to post his letters in a little red box then its his choice..

I loved Diego Garcia as Huggy Bear in 'Starsky and Hutch', but he's not really done anything else since has he?.

I don't think any of the European empire builders of the past are without blood on their hands

You can't go back and change it so you need to deal with it as is is now and allow the residents to decide
Same as Gib, they've had a couple of referendums about transferring to Spain, pretty much unanimous decisions to stay as is.

Is HK really a parallel though? We leased that from China as a settlement for an opium war, and returned it when we were supposed to, as far as I can tell there was no such lease for the Falklands.

the residents of the islands are not British - they are falkanders

So the Argentinians have laid claim to the islands before & since we took over in 1833 - do they have any legal claim to substantiate this? I gather not.

Are the Islands recognised internationally as an independently governed state/country ?

I'm looking forward to Sean Penn calling for Nuevo Reino de Filipinas: La Provincia de Texas to be returned to Mexico if Mexico demands it.

Argentina did have ownership of the islands in the past

I should imagine the indigenous peoples of south America would like to claim Argentina back.

I'm looking forward to Sean Penn calling for Nuevo Reino de Filipinas: La Provincia de Texas to be returned to Mexico if Mexico demands it.

Or Hawaii, which is about a couple of thousand miles away from thr USA mainland.

Back to the op.
Just hate sean penn. It's a lot easier.

What is the indigenous people to the north of Hadrian's wall want to claim that back?

slimjim78 - Member

the residents of the islands are not British - they are falkanders

except they are apparently Bristish Citizens

Ah - changed after '83 - they were only dependent territories citizens before that which did not give them right of abode in the UK

The government tells us that buying dodgy DVDs at a car boot sale for a fiver each funds terrorism but it still lets us buy Fray Bentos pies in Tesco to help pay for HMS Belgrano II

He's clearly just upset that his marriage to Eva Peron didn't last. That she then shacked up with a posh British bloke with a mockney accent must have been the icing on the cake.

You mean the [i]ARA General Belgrano[/i] surely? 😉

It should be up to the Falklanders to decide. Since the 1950s, Britain has been keen to offload it's former colonial posessions as quickly as possible (too quickly if you consider Palestine/Israel). Had Argentina not invaded in 1982 then there's a strong chance that the Islas Malvinas would be at the very least independent by now.

The issue really boils down to the lake of oil beneath the Falklands. The technology to extract it is only just becoming viable now and I daresay the British government isn't keen to waive it's claimed ownership of the oilfield. Argentina's future energy security is also going to be strongly influenced by whoever owns the Falklands.

The first record of someone landing on the Falklands was a British mariner a few hundred years back. There is no trace of them being settled (though they may have been visited) in previous history. Looks a godforsaken windswept place but Argentina has no valid claim on it - it's not even that close to them, 250 miles away! Looks quite close on a map, has good fishing, might have oil.

There were no indigenous people - it's nothing like all the other places we (rudely) colonised which already had inhabitants. Or HK which we were leased (free of charge) by the Chinese to stop us going to war with them after they got annoyed about us making lots of money selling their people opium and tried to ban it - amazing what Victorian Britain got away with...

TandemJeremy - Member
...except they are apparently Bristish Citizens

Ah - changed after '83 - they were only dependent territories citizens before that which did not give them right of abode in the UK

They were British before the introduction of immigration laws to keep out all those former members of the British Empire.

Why can't he stick to being a Thespian?

Maybe they could have a vote for independence and declare themselves part of an 'arco de la prosperidad' with some other randomly selected local islands, within a political union of South American Nations?

the people of the FI have a right to self determination.

the UN is clear the Falklands is a colony and the rights of the people to self determination are not to be considered as they were planted there and are not indigenous

Whilst going on about the right of the people you may wish to consider how much the Uk respected the will of the Ireland vote and what the people wanted then - we partitioned the country and then "respected the wishes" of the state we created by the people we planted there

It is antiquated colonialism just like Gibraltar

I like the argies have no legal claim argument whilst insisting we do to a small speck on the other side of the world that we took by force from someone else

Tory MP Patrick Mercer, a former Army officer, told the Daily Mail: "What on earth has this got to do with Sean Penn? He's neither British nor Argentine and seems to know nothing about the situation judging by this moronic statement.
"A good number of his movies have been turkeys, so I suppose we shouldn't expect much better coming out of his mouth."

[img] [/img]

Another thing - all the loss of life in the 1980s was because Argentina INVADED. ie it was their act of aggression.

I hope Sean Penn gets turned away at any British airport if he ever tries to come into the UK again.

Looks like he is trying to become president of F.A.G.

we took by force from someone else

the UN is clear the Falklands is a colony and the rights of the people to self determination are not to be considered as they were planted there and are not indigenous

Why can't he stick to being a Thespian?

Because he's not very good at that?

SO if Israel puts enough Jewish settlements in the west bank and Palestine - ignoring th eUn resolutions and violating International law - we should then respect the wishes of the people once the indegenous lot are outnumbered?

Good point - should send all the settlers back to Spain where they came from and let the indigenous population have Argentina back.

Or wasn't that what you meant?

Funny Sean Penn meme lost in translation

I like the argies have no legal claim argument whilst insisting we do to a small speck on the other side of the world that we took by force from someone else

Is geography important then?
Unless im mistaken, pretty much every country on the planet has been taken by force at least once in the past, usually several times or more.

I revert to one of my original points, how long ago is long ago enough?

A line has to be drawn, as I see it, Britain has drawn it. Do we support or do we need to be more liberal?

I dunno for sure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Falkland_Islands

The Falklands have no indigenous people!

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas ]This[/url] archiac claptrap I believe is the reason the Argies (nee Spanish) believe they have a claim to the Falkands.

Theres little else to substantiate any claim other than proximtiy.

Edit....Mr Penn is a complete tool.

Can we give them Scotland instead?
They want out, but the Falklands don't, so why not?
It would even things up a bit too, with both countries having a territory in the other hemisphere.
Would also make the Six Nations more interesting. 😉

we took by force from someone else

Untrue.

ous

Really? Reference please?

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/south-american-block-on-falkland-registered-vessels#post-3300853

and much more on this thread and links therin

Ie we have done this before

Looking forward to them claiming Antarctica and seeing how the Russians take the news.

Me thinks Sean has been watching Braveheart with his Jew hating friend.

British forces returned and requested the Argentine garrison leave

the UN is clear the Falklands is a colony and the rights of the people to self determination are not to be considered as they were planted there and are not indigenous

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/south-american-block-on-falkland-registered-vessels#post-3300853

Answer me this question, Junky: if the UK controlling the Falklands is colonialism, wouldn't Argentina controlling the Falklands also be colonialism? If you're deciding between one colonial master or another, shouldn't the will of the colonists be taken into account?

TandemJeremy - Member
which did not give them right of abode in the UK

Your point?

They don't want to abide in the UK, they want to abide in the Falklands

Good point - should send all the settlers back to Spain where they came from and let the indigenous population have Argentina back.

Or wasn't that what you meant?

It is clearly a complicated issue and one where it will be difficult to find universal principles where by we could impose some world order based on some arbitrary date or time. Nonetheless I am sure even you can see the point I was making.

The proximity is interesting as well - we did this on the other thread and someone wants to know how close is ok..it seems clear without imperial intervention Argentina would "own" the Falklands due to proximity and for us to claim it is a ludicrous as them to claim the Isle of white

yes other anomalies exist and we cannot re write the entire map but this principle is hardly a difficult one to understand

Basically some want to apply their is oil lets keep it

some want to say we settled it,it is mile away so lets give it back
Some say let the people [we planted there] decide

All of these principles have some weight to them and none can be completely ignored you must decide which you put most weight to his

Whichever you choose we can give counter situations

Obviously this is STW so lets just argue and score points from one another for the 4th?? time in one month on the same subject.. I am sure this time someone will change their mind and concede ground…..this is what STW is know for

aracer you need to address that complex philosophical conundrum, to the UN

and consider the question in light of my views above

It is always easier to just ask snipey questions form the sidelines that state your own view
STW in groundhog day shocka

A bit of reading around the subject and I don't see that Argentina has a particularly better claim to them than the UK(though I don't think we actually "claim" them do we? Just support their right for self governance under our protection) - both are pretty vague to say the least. Their upside is that they are quite a bit closer (although the original poster making similarity claims to the IOW showed a bit of geographical ineptness - they are A LOT further away than that!) and the UK's upside is that the current residents would like things to stay as they are.

Bit of a mess though generally.

Ultimately if it kicks off do we have the capability to keep them?
Are the islanders EU citizens? Will be nice to have a bit of backing from our European partners.

.it seems clear without [b]imperial[/b] intervention Argentina would "own" the Falklands due to proximity and for us to claim it is a ludicrous as them to claim the Isle of white

Have you read up much on the history of "Argentina"? That's a nation that only exists because of "imperial" intervention and is predominately made of up of a populous of imperial descendants who still speak the mother tongue of their previous imperial governors. Both (Argentina and Falklands) are the product of imperial meddling from Europe so why should it seem obvious for one to subsume the other just because of size? It all adds to the mess.

In the absence of a compelling and convincing reason for a change then, the status quo must prevail. (rockin all over the world)

some want to say we settled it,it is mile away so lets give it back

Give it back to who, Spain?
There has never been a legitimate Argentinian claim to the islands, the best they can come up with is proximity which is no claim at all.
The UN [i]request[/i] that the UK and Argentina open talks to establish sovereignty. That is it, it makes no judgement at all on who has the most legitimate claim (standard non-committal UN fare).
It is obvious that this isn't going to happen and particularly now there's something in it for the UK (oil).
So Sean Penn, South America and TJ can moan until the cows return, it just doesn't matter. The FI will remain a UK concern.

I still haven't the foggiest what the UN, Argentina, or anyone else expect to get out of talks. They will probably go somewhere along the lines of:

Argentina: "We'd quite like control of the islands"

UK: "We'd rather you didn't"

UN: "Could you share?"

UK and Argentina: (in unison) "No!"

Just to add that IMHO, the UK would do well for relations in the area if Argentina got a small cut of proceeds from the oil. Spread the wealth a little.

The proximity is interesting as well - we did this on the other thread and someone wants to know how close is ok..it seems clear without imperial intervention Argentina would "own" the Falklands due to proximity and for us to claim it is a ludicrous as them to claim the Isle of white

Isn't Chile virtually the same distance?

In the absence of a compelling and convincing reason for a change then, the status quo must prevail.

I think so

[quoteHow would you feel if Argentina claimed the Isle of Wight?

pissed because i live here!

Just to add that IMHO, the UK would do well for relations in the area if Argentina got a small cut of proceeds from the oil. Spread the wealth a little.

Problem is, I don't think Argentina would accept that.

Not 100% Cameron would give it either :-/

Even as a card carrying pinko lefty, I'd say in the absence of a proper prior ownership claim, the fact that a previous administration tried to take them by force and most importantly the populations will remain as is, then the current situation is how it should stay.

Not sure what the comparisons with Diego Garcia are in aid of - all it shows is that our governments are capable of being unpleasant when it suits them. Not exactly news. It's probably fair to say they care more about the oil than the islanders in this case, but at least the result is the 'right' thing.

Sean Penn is a man who makes a living from standing where he's told to stand and say what he's been told to say.

Look at my face.

Am I bovvered. 🙄

3 thoughts.
1) Do you have a flag? [url]

2) It's all Th*tcher's fault

and

3) Not sure that someone with two Academy Awards could be described as being 'not very good' at acting.

Malvinas - we should have a scrap. Whoever wins gets them, until someone next wants a scrap about them. Fight! Fight! Fight!

I see Sean will be at the ceremony to hand over his country to the red* Indians.

*Edit

Why, have India made a claim on them too?

India was created by the British..

India was created by the British..

I was lied to - my geography teacher told me it was formed by plate tectonics!

There was an interesting analysis of the situation in the Guardian yesterday, basically suggesting that Kirchner is posturing to try and deflect from the reality of her domestic situation, which is that she's a 2nd term president of a country who's economy is flagging, and doesn't want the vultures circling any earlier than necessary.

All the analysis of Argentina's military capabilities I've come across seems to suggest that they don't have the capacity to mount an invasion of the Falklands against the current British garrison as they lack a counter to the Typhoons based there, and don't have the means to defend a seaborne invasion fleet against the Royal Navy's hk subs. If that's an accurate analysis, then I can't imagine the Argentinian military are desperate for Kirchner to pick a real fight.

What's the Spanish for [i]"do not feed the troll"[/i]

[i]What's the Spanish for "do not feed the troll"[/i]

'effeffefeffeffeff Chris Waddle' ?

Think we have as good a claim as anyone.

Borders, who owns what, who should have what, is all open to question. History has shown that things change, peoples move, countries rise and fall, polulations expand contract, are forcibly moved, willingly move.

Some countries expand, others fall apart.

For now its ours, and when Scotland becomes independent, we should get a portion of it, preferrably the bit with the oil! 😉

You should have heard the Argentine Foreign Ministers speach to the UN. It was one BIG troll.

On another note Sean who? Im going to go off and google his films. Sounds very familiar but can't remember his recent work.

Ah! Carlito's Way and Being John Malkovich.

Ultimately if it kicks off do we have the capability to keep them?

there is now some decent defences in place.

Thing is, we don't even want to fight the Argentinas. Just to beat them at football 😆

I hope the UN doesn't 'order' us to fight it out in a football game..

Didn't the French give us a hand the last time as well, by 'losing' the Argentinian order for more Exocets - might be an idea if CMD went and played kiss and make up with Sarkozy, just in case.

[i]we don't even want to fight the Argentinas[/i]
The squaddies probably do. Starting fights in pubs is all well and good but you can't beat a proper scrap with no police around.

Hopefully the Argentinians have secured another battleship by now or the lads in the RN will be very disappointed...

sharkbait - Member

Ultimately if it kicks off do we have the capability to keep them?

Basically yes. Also I would fully expect the US to 'lend' us a load of hardware as they did last time. They only got ashore last time because they took everyone by surprise - there is now some decent defences in place

What did the US lend us last time? Do you mean in 1982 or WWII

Should I support The Falklands

Do they even have a football team?

I hope the UN doesn't 'order' us to fight it out in a football game..

A football match would absolutely be the best way to decide ownership of Falklandia.

Everyone likes a game of football.

We could replay the match every 4 years to see who wins ownership of the place for the next term.

This is also the way that general elections should be decided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_official_football_team

The squaddies probably do. Starting fights in pubs is all well and good but you can't beat a proper scrap with no police around.

😆

You should have heard the Argentine Foreign Ministers speach to the UN. It was one BIG troll.

FFS like anyone believes you listened to that Hora ..Lies, damn lies and Hora posts 🙄