[Closed] Scottish/British ?

If someone asks where I'm from, I'll say the UK. If someone asks if I'm English, I'll say [b]no[/b]. British as a term seems a little uncomfortable in some ways, but not absolutely incorrect. If someone wants to think of me as Scottish, that's fine. In reality, I'm not [i]really[/i] any of them (Scottish, English, British) in any meaningful sense. I prefer having a strong sense of regional attachment and identify with family/cultural background(s), rather than an isolationist perspective that relies on what (to me) are rather arbitrary and outdated nationalist distinctions.

[edit] Geda, you seem to have an unusually similar background (Cross- border and svensk at least) to me. Strange coincedence. But what you say holds true- I can't identify with an idea of "England" or "Englishness", and have no desire to do so. Same for "Scotland" or "Scottishness".

FAIL!!!.

As a British citizen who has lived in a number of parts of England in the last 30 years, I find the level of feeling about this sort of thing a bit peculiar. I don't really understand what sort of "connection" anyone expects to feel

What you find peculiar is dependent on what you are familiar with. I am familiar with living in places with a strong geographical / cultural attachment, and find a lack of any understanding or identity with a place as peculiar.

The first time I encountered this sort of ambivalence to "place" was when I went to college in England. I found it to be a defining attribute of the English - and remember as a fresher having a conversation with a lad from Berkshire who just could not comprehend why myself and some Welsh and Scottish students had any feelings of identity to where we had come from.

What those Cornish patriots who offered to burn down Rick Stein's restaurant, for example, have going through their heads really just puzzles me.

The desperation of the disenfranchised - I suspect.

In my own 40 odd years Padstow has changed from a small but touristy fishing town, to a vision of Chelsea transported to the North Cornish coast. Rick Stein's original restaurant brought a lot of (largely welcome) attention and trade to Padstow - but now his branding is on everything - delis, fish and chip shops, you name it...

Despite all of the upmarket tourism, and a housing market driven to prices well beyond the affordability of most local people - Cornwall is on of the most impoverished areas of the UK. It is one of the few areas of the UK that still qualifies for EU objective 1 funding. Kids growing up in Cornwall have a choice between minimum wage jobs serving the rich (often seasonal) or leaving to get better paid jobs. I accept that these economic conditions are prevalent in many "desirable" areas, but become a volatile mix when the local population has a strong geographical cultutal identity.

Perhaps the problem would go away if we did not have that identity - personally, I feel that I would be losing something of myself...

Yes I take you point but to put it more clearly I think the English have an identity issue or loss of identity that's not prevalent in Scotland

I think that's true to an extent - eg folk music has no popular appeal in England and is seen as a weird minority thing, whereas it's pretty normal in Scotland.

and that's why the concept of Britishness is clearly so important to many people on here and elsewhere.

Don't really agree with this bit though - it's certainly not important to me.

I agree with this

Apart from the fact that it is a political entity that issues my passport, protects me and largely ensures that my life is alright it doesn't seem to impinge very much at any emotional or consciousness level. It is just a fact, rather than something to get seriously emotional about.

Geda. For you information England is the whole country, not just London and the SE! Take a look around, there are great places in England.

I think that's true to an extent - eg folk music has no popular appeal in England and is seen as a weird minority thing, whereas it's pretty normal in Scotland.

I think that comes into the realms of culture evolving again. I grew up in a part of Brum where there is a large carribean community, folk music for me is reggae as that's the sound that I grew up around. Folk music by definition is the music that people listen to and play, it doesn't have to be the music of tradition. Good job too, I hate that hey nonny nonny nonsense 😉

Todd Boy For your information I was born and brought up in Northumberland. Part of England but I just don't relate much to the image of England as it is all about cream teas, Cotswold cottages and cricket. Maybe if they moved the capital of England away from London? I grew up with lots of folk music and folk stories in Northumberland.

I love confusing undergrads with national identity discussions. Fact is, most people have multiple/hybrid national identities. I was born in London to an English mother and Irish father, but i am from the UK. I'm not English.

re. the proposed Scottish referendum on Scottish independence, doesn't the rest of the Union get a say?

Geda, good point. I was born and brought up in the NE. My first pride is that I am from that region, the second, that I am English. England is far from cream teas and the like.

England as it is all about cream teas, Cotswold cottages and cricket

England incorporates cream teas, cottages and cricket etc. I was born in lancashire, just outside a working class town (Wigan). I've had lovely cream teas sat amongst cottages in places from Cornwall to Cumbria. Seen (but hated) plenty of cricket across the areas too. I think you're tripping over the class issue, rather than the culture issue.

Try living in Australia with an accent like mine (NE England)!. Most people think that I am from; in descendind order, Scotland, Ireland, Wales,England,South Africa!

re. the proposed Scottish referendum on Scottish independence, doesn't the rest of the Union get a say?

Nope

"We are sovereign within the Union and we can walk out any time we want". Those are the exact words once uttered by Michael Forsyth, an arch-unionist and Secretary of State for Scotland under Margaret Thatcher, uttered January 1997

Not that we'll vote to go mind.

I always refer to this part of Europe as the UK

Moi, I'm English.

Never use the term British to describe myself, don't know why, but obviously use the term where appropriate, to describe Govt, Army etc

I think Great Britain is a geographical term meself, deccribes these (wonderful) islands. All of 'em. 😉

Part of England but I just don't relate much to the image of England

I feel no connection to being "British".

The way I look at being British is that I don't feel like I'm traveling into a foreign country when I drive down to England or Wales. I was born, I grew up and I live in Scotland but I don't consider the other parts of the UK as foreign.

I do often consider my nationality to be British. This is partly because as a schoolchild in Aberdeenshire with English parents and a fairly English accent, certain ignorant and unpleasant fellow pupils made me associate excessive national pride with being a narrowminded, racist tw*t...

To me, nationalist claims are inherently suppressive of difference (unless someone can point towards any nation where geographic, political and cultural (etc.) territories can be superimposed entirely), and I guess that's why I (and others on here) sceptical of claims to “British-ness”, “English-ness” or “Scottish-ness”.

For example, thinking about language, history, landscape and music... Growing up, I'd speak words of Norse, Danish, Lowland Scots and English origin, nearby riding would cover areas fought over by these groups and others at various points, with “locals” supporting and resisting these in an apparently incoherent manner. The landscape was formed by ice that covered most of Northern Europe, with geological origins shared between different present day nations. My extended family would be familiar with Doric or Gaelic, and some of my friends had similar roots. “Folk” music (which was by no means mainstream, but I happened to be into at one point) would typically be sung in dialect, but the tunes might have come from the Northern Isles, Highlands, Ireland, or travelled across the Atlantic and back. Much of the music we'd listen to would be “black” music or even “world” music (however stupid those terms are).

The point is, how would the specific histories that I associate with a given place register against a measure of English-ness, Scottish-ness or British-ness? To me they don't. I can view elements of all of these things as parts of wider processes without the need to invoke ideas of nationhood to make them meaningful to me.

Trailmonkey is getting at a good point- “tradition” is continually being produced, remade and contested. It seems that the most visible signs of “tradition” can be found outside situations that might be viewed as “modern” or mainstream, but in reality these “traditions” exist everywhere. There is nothing essential about English-ness or Scottish-ness or British-ness, and as far as I'm concerned they are not particularly useful terms, especially when they are used as a kind of fixed, incontrovertible statements of truth.

Christ, that was a **** ramble.

[edit]

[i] I just don't relate much to the image of England[i]

That's your perception and not reality. You are English.

That's you told then GEDA. And most of Northumberland, Cornwall, etc. etc... 🙄

So my mum was born in India and another Gran from Scotland and I live in Sweden. I feel myself British as I have some vague sense of place for the whole of the British Isles. Come to think of it countries are only there for the people at the top to control us so it is a bit more liberating to not think of yourself as belonging to any particular country. The SNP politicians do not really care that much about "Scotland" what they really want is power. Same with any politician or king they only want to control you and appeal to your sense of tribe.

"Scottish first, British Second" which is how a lot of Scottish people, regardless of their view on independence, view themselves

Tick!

Always described myself as such. European third, Earthling fourth. 🙂

If a form says "Nationality" I always put Scottish, I suspect most pancakes do likewise.

I hate all this SNP independence crap - we are part of the UK and I for one think Salmond should sod off...

I sincerely hope that we do get a referendum on independence and that the vote is to maintain the union. Purely in the hope that Salmond will stop harping on about how all Scots want independence.

No we don't thanks Alex. Actually a significant number think it would be a bad idea or at least have some major concerns.

Sorry that came out wrong, I meant to say that you are from England (not necessarily English). And Britain and the UK. But England still.
Christ, that was a **** ramble.

Wasn't it just.

 

Me - European first, British second and have no real feeling for England whatsoever although I was born here...why?

Mum: English (Wigan)
Dad: German (Hamburg)

Wife: Italian (Turin)
Daughter: Italian (born in Como)
Son: English (born Brighton)

Speak english, german and italian and have live in all 3 coutries.

I am proud to be european as it is such an ace place with great history and culture. I think Britain is a great concept and often feel proud of welsh/scottish/irish culture even though I have no real connection...go figure

Nothing to do with Scottish/British but I thought I'd share anyway! 8)

I always state that I am a citizen of Star-ship Earth.

Eh? Surely you're a gas giant, fifth planet from the Sun and the largest within the Solar System?

If you were here on Star-ship Earth then surely we'd know about it through all the crushing, dying and general apocalypse stuff.

i'm brirish

british when it suits me, irish when it suits me - really don't give a shot about nationality. why be proud of a country when you haven't made it as it is? and is it really more worthy of adulation or even appreciation than any other country?

i don't feel any identity to any bit of land or culture

i'd have a UN passport if i could

mleh

I never identify myself as British because it is regarded as a synonym for English in most countries, including by many English. I would have no problem with being regarded as British if it were otherwise.

I hope to see full independence for a Scottish republic in my lifetime.

Predictable, but someone has to do it ..

"I'm a Yorkshireman first, second and third!"

OK, now that's out of the way, I live in Scotland and cringe every time a positive achievement by a Scottish individual or team is reported as a British one. If pressed, I prefer to consider myself British than English.

finally, a rough and ready poll suggests that most of my friends/colleagues think the idea of devolution is barking!

Perhaps someone could recommend a good therapist?

Why be proud of a country when you haven't made it as it is?

Because it shows an understanding of the history and culture of a place, and shows an appreciation for the benefits that an accident of birth has bestowed upon you.

And conversely, if you can't feel proud of a place then how can you be ashamed of it when its communal values are not upheld?

I hope to see full independence for a Scottish republic in my lifetime.

*shudder*

I hope to see full independence for an English republic in my lifetime.

Me too.

Genuine question: What is the problem with [i]a positive achievement by a Scottish individual or team is reported as a British one[/i]?

I think everyone is aware that irritable almost-winner of tennis Andy Murray is Scottish, for example. No-one thinks he's English. Why does it annoy so many people that some people who are not Scots cheer for him and count his wins as wins that make them feel good?

Is it just because the reason provided is that he is described as British, and is supported as such by people who have more truck for "British" as an idea than you do?

i would see myself as british first and probably english second, either way i feel lucky to have grown up in a country with an NHS some amazing countryside, an attitude of tolerance and inclusion, the scouts, jumpers for goalposts etc
I never really appreciate my hometown when i was younger but as ive aged ive become a bigger fan of luton town fc and i love the dunstable downs
I think nationalism is tied in with sentimentality and to my mind thats a good thing only up to the point where it stops you thinking objectively
Therefore im always suspicous of anyone who harps on about nationalism too much, it smacks of someone who will defend his country or the actions of his countrymen even when they are in the wrong, it also implies that they think less of other countries or people which is quite frankly a load of tosh

BD - Using your example then, his results can be reported as a 'British success' one day and a 'Scottish failure' the next. I agree that either term might be used, but should be applied consistently.

Catching myself and wondering where I bought these tartan-tinted specs ...

BD: as above, I have no objection when "a positive achievement by a Scottish individual or team is reported as a British one" [u]as long as[/u] an English achievement is likewise "British" and the (sadly more common) failures are also "British".

What most Scots are sensitive to is that athletes/teams/whatever are only British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose, but conversely English when they are winning and British when they lose.

What most Scots are sensitive to is that athletes/teams/whatever are only British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose, but conversely English when they are winning and British when they lose.

Can anyone post an example of this actually happening? Posting articles from two different newspapers doesn't count btw.

[i]ScotlandTheScared
I'm Scottish. And I'm British. I hate all this SNP independence crap - we are part of the UK and I for one think Salmond should sod off...

GrahamS
Tick!
Always described myself as such. European third, Earthling fourth.
If a form says "Nationality" I always put Scottish, I suspect most pancakes do likewise.
I sincerely hope that we do get a referendum on independence and that the vote is to maintain the union. Purely in the hope that Salmond will stop harping on about how all Scots want independence.
No we don't thanks Alex. Actually a significant number think it would be a bad idea or at least have some major concerns.[/i]

That about sums it up for me too.

What most Scots are sensitive to is that athletes/teams/whatever are only British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose

I don't recall ever hearing about the British world elephant polo champions - not once

The BBC reported
[b][i]"Scotland are celebrating sporting glory after being crowned world champions of elephant polo ..........
.....With this victory, no one can deny Scotland are one of the world's sporting heavyweights"[/i][/b]

Stop laughing at the back there

[i]British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose[/i]

I must admit, I struggle to think of an example of this. Certainly I wasn't aware of Murray ceasing to be British on exiting Wimbledon for example.

Of course, I'm not sensitive to it so I wouldn't necessarily notice. But it would help my sense that this grievance is a [i]little[/i] out of proportion if someone could give us a reference. 🙂

I've got an example for you BD 😉

[url= http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/motorsport-news/2009/06/08/sixth-gp-victory-takes-jenson-button-a-step-closer-to-f1-world-title-86908-21424007/ ]Brittish driver wins F1 GP[/url]

[url= http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2009/08/31/jenson-button-remains-focused-despite-crashing-out-of-belgian-gp-in-40-seconds-86908-21637075/ ]English driver loses F1 GP[/url]

Big Dummy - Its a lot less prevalent than it used to be. I think the sports commentators are far more wary than they used to be about the nationality thing.

Its still heard sometimes tho.

see what I did there TJ?

I hid the dreaded 40th post until you posted 🙂

I'm Scottish and happy to say that I detest the SNP, particularly the ghastly Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond duo.

Proud to be Scottish and British. I love the fact that the seperate parts that make our nation have their own strong identities, but that as a whole we have a strong identity too. I echo the hope that there is a referendum which null and voids the SNP devolution tosh once and for all.

I worry that people from other parts of the UK think we are all rabid SNP fanatics. I believe the SNP are only in power due to the low turn out at the relevant elections and people being sick of Labour. Not a huge fan of recent Labour antics either but they are the lesser of two evils by some way.

I don't think I have ever been so disappointed at an election result than SNP's victory. Upset is probably a better word actually...

trailmonkey - Member

Chicken Balti is as [b]English[/b] as Yorkshire pud.

Funny cos I thought that Wales, Scotland and Ireland had Indian curry houses aplenty too.

Balti is surely as [i]British[/i] as ......... something really British?

Balti is surely as British as

In the true STW tradition - I haven't read the whole thread!

Scottish is by definition British IMO.

Just as I live in Sussex, which is in England, which is also in Britain.

If I were Scottish I would describe myself as Scottish. Now that's all absoloutely clear, ahem 😉 I'm off riding and drinking for the evening.

I believe the SNP are only in power due to the low turn out at the relevant elections...

Actually I think they benefited from by offering something most of the UK doesn't have: a viable third option!

They got in on the back of folk who were/are hacked off with Labour, but couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory.
In theory LibDems offer this third way to England, but who actually thinks they will ever get in?

Funny cos I thought that Wales, Scotland and Ireland had Indian curry houses aplenty too.

Balti is surely as British as ......... something really British?

Comes from Birmingham as far as I know. I'm sure we've exported it since though.

I believe the SNP vote was more positive than some - the interesting thing will be the next holyrood election however. Labour have covered themselves in mud over their reaction to the SNP - its all been "yah boo sucks" and automatic opposition to them. Scottish labour have been shown to be political pygmies. NO attempt at consensual politics which the rest of the parliament have engaged in.