[Closed] Scottish/British ?

I've never heard a Scot say they weren't British also. I've heard them complain about it a lot, but never heard them claim not to be.

I am British and a Scot. THere is an assumptoin that all that is British is English (usually from abroad) and there is a tendency to swap English into things when British is meant. In those cases i am a Scot to try to highlight to the ignorant that not all Brits are English.

I'm Scottish. And I'm British. I hate all this SNP independence crap - we are part of the UK and I for one think Salmond should sod off...

THere is an assumptoin that all that is British is English (usually from abroad) and there is a tendency to swap English into things when British is meant.

I concur about the from abroad, being myself guilty of it.

If you're at all interested in a view from south of the border, I consider myself English by nationality and culture and British is a geographical concept only, in other words I am British in the same way that I am European.

"Who opened the racist door?"

I'm English in Scotland. It's only since being here that I've realised just HOW protective the Scots are of their name. I often used to interchange british and english purely through lack of thought (never needed to think about the difference before) but now I actually have to be careful what I say as I don't really want to cause offence and I think the Scots national pride is a good thing. Not convinced they'd be better off completely independant though, it's a fairly helpful symbiosis.

I consider myself British. Of English birth of English parents living in Scotland most of my life and Scotland is my home. I sound English

I am as Scottish as you can get.

I sound English

I concur too. Mind you not sure "english" is exactly the term you are looking for. Pikey would be more appropriate I think 😉

I can certainly understand the idea that nationality is one thing - i.e English - but we are all resident in the island of Britain so it's like arguing black is white to my mind.

It's normally yanks who claim that Scots aren't British, usually to do with the romantic guff they swallow as 'history' but recently i've been having a conversation with a few Scots who also claim they are not British in any way, shape or form.
Britain as a geographical concept is fine and one i understand but Britain is still a pyhsical reality.

Consider myself British but when asked my nationality I would always say Scottish.

I would have thought that, barring some unpleasant misshap at some point causing mental scarring, most people would go with country>island>continent as their "tree of belonging."

I'm English in Scotland. It's only since being here that I've realised just HOW protective the Scots are of their name. I often used to interchange british and english purely through lack of thought (never needed to think about the difference before) but now I actually have to be careful what I say as I don't really want to cause offence and I think the Scots national pride is a good thing. Not convinced they'd be better off completely independant though, it's a fairly helpful symbiosis.

Thankyou. Sincerely. That is all most scots really want! Just an appreciation of the fact that English doesn't = british, and british doesn't = english, and it isn't ok to say british when whatever it is you are referring to is specifically scottish, or english, or Welsh or NI for that matter.

"Britsh soccer fans ran riot" is a classic example.

"British schools will get funding for xyz", is another which usually just means English and welsh schools, because, Scotland has a seperate education system

You can forgive/understand americans and other foreigners doing it, cos it's a pretty unique set up, but to hear that on the news IN the uk just makes blood boil.

Incidently, IMO, the media are are much better than they used to be.

As soon as get past our tribal history and realise that we are all humans first and only anything else by accident of birth, perhaps we may get along better. But then that's the idealist side of me. As a mongrel of the British Isles I'm proud of being English but proud of my Welsh and Scotish family background. The arguing over whose what and whose not sounds like being bunch siblings from a (my) family.

My mum was approached by an english woman in Birmingham, who asked her if she would mind taking part in a survey. She was asked if she lived in England. My mother replied "No, I'm actually visiting from Scotland". To which the woman said "Oh, but that's the same thing, really, isn't it?"
My mum, being a proud Scot, obviously educated her on the matter and walked off in indignation.

Not having a go at those who consider themsleves English / British whatever but the Scots still retain a very clear cultural & national identity - The English have lost that.

Thats the long and short of it imho and vive le difference!

the Scots still retain a very clear cultural & national identity - The English have lost that.

Explain. You can't lose a cultural identity. It may evolve, but it doesn't get lost.

[i]THere is an assumptoin that all that is British is English[/i]
Surely this only lasts until one actually sees the sickly bluey whiteish skintone of your typical scotch person?

*pulls up a seat on Offa's Dyke*

I don't really think this is one to get worked up about. The most common phrase in Scotland on this subject is actually "Scottish first, British Second" which is how a lot of Scottish people, regardless of their view on independence, view themselves. I don;t think there is anything wrong with that. I also don't see anything unusual about Scottish people asserting their identity from the position of being the smaller "partner" in the Union.

One thing I have found personally is that when abroad, it is definitely favourable to be "Scottish" rather than "British" (or English which is synonymous) due to the negative connotations that British/English has for many people.

Edit to add: Genuine question - are people using "Scotch" as a wind-up or is it used out of general ignorance of the correct nomenclature? I read it on here a lot on these types of thread.....

Im a European!

I'm English then European. I'll pop back when this all hots up a bit, this thread is still in it's infancy.

Per Swello really Trailmonkey although the term British has no resonance with me whatsoever - it's only a geographical collective. I'm sure many Scots consider themselves Scottish first and European second. Putting the evolution question back to you - what exactly has Englsih culture evolved into if it has not been all but lost? ( again not having a go)

[i]Genuine question - are people using "Scotch" as a wind-up or is it used out of general ignorance of the correct nomenclature? I read it on here a lot on these types of thread..[/i]
it IS the correct nomenclature for things scottish. Whisky, eggs, mist, people.

vive le difference!

Ahem [b]la différence[/b]

My apologies Juan - must try harder 😉

"Scotch" is not the term when referring to people (as you well know I suspect) - that would be "Scots" or "Scottish".

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." ~Albert Einstein

I agree with Berty.

Nationalism is simple pride in the way/place/people you were brought up in/with. I see nothing wrong with that. To quote a genius without thinking about it or explaining your reasoning is far too easy!

I'm English but live in highland Scotland. The Scots do take a healthy pride in their national identity and character which is which is very different from the rest of the UK and Ireland. Will never move back to Englandland

Reckon 99% of people if questioned in the street would say they are English, Scottish or Welsh rather than British

[i]"Scotch" is not the term when referring to people (as you well know I suspect) - that would be "Scots" or "Scottish". [/i]

"Scops"(sic) is a kind of owl.
"Scottish" refers to the national football team.
The people, the pancakes and the tape - all "Scotch".

I class my self as Scottish.

I feel no connection to being "British". To me "Britain" purely represents a geographic location. In much the same was as someone from Brazil would be "Brazilian" but also "South American".

"Nationalism is simple pride in the way/place/people you were brought up in/with. I see nothing wrong with that. To quote a genius without thinking about it or explaining your reasoning is far too easy!"

I did think about it which is why I was reminded of the quote, which summed up what I think. Genius.

Putting the evolution question back to you - what exactly has Englsih culture evolved into if it has not been all but lost?

English culture is everything that we have and do. It's not something that you can lose. If you are trying to suggest that English culture has been lost due to multi culturalism, I would simply argue that it has been enhanced by it, Chicken Balti is as English as Yorkshire pud. If you think that Scots culture is undiluted and untouched by modernity, then you're sadly mistaken. Just as an example, I was standing next to a Scottish guy a couple of weeks ago, he had two tatoos on his arm one was a saltire, the other a picture of Mel Gibson with the word Braveheart underneath.

"Scottish first, British Second"

That's very sensible, and is the outlook of many people where I come from - Cornish first, [s]English[/s] / British second.

Outright nationalism might be infantile, but having a strong sense of identity and belonging is not. I currently live in Wales and have a very strong affinity with their outlook.

The ignorance / indifference of many English does come across as perceived or actual arrogance.

In terms of identification with Britishness - it is often claimed to be a vestige of Empire - The British Empire. To me it is clear - the individual Nations make up the State. The armed services are the most recognisable institutions of Britishness - after all, it's the British Army...

The most confusion come from the fact that the British Government sits in Westminster and also administers England. FWIW I don't support a separate English assembly - but that's a different debate.

"Nationalism the last bastion of the scoundrel" - some well known chappy whose name escapes me. Have nothing against waving the various flags (well not in Tripoli) with pride for your region. But it is a shame that history is viewed as "you did this so I'll hate you", rather than looking at the lessons that it could give. Also most blinkered Nationalist types don't look what bad their own country may have done, they only look at the bad of others they want (you) to hate.
It's not to hard to try and break every area/region down to what happened in history with those next door. But what is hard is getting along and living together.
Am I taking this to seriously?

The British Isles is a unique place, within Europe. Whether English, Scot, Welsh, Irish, the political boundaries cannot and will never distinguish that we are all from the British Isles.

I did think about it which is why I was reminded of the quote, which summed up what I think. Genius.

Still not explained 🙂

>English culture is everything that we have and do. It's not something that you can lose<

Yes I take you point but to put it more clearly I think the English have an identity issue or loss of identity that's not prevalent in Scotland and that's why the concept of Britishness is clearly so important to many people on here and elsewhere. Not having a go at English people - it's my perception in relation to the OP

>The people, the pancakes and the tape - all "Scotch". <

AndyP - "thrawn"

As a British citizen who has lived in a number of parts of England in the last 30 years, I find the level of feeling about this sort of thing a bit peculiar. I don't really understand what [i]sort[/i] of "connection" anyone expects to feel for "Britain". Apart from the fact that it is a political entity that issues my passport, protects me and largely ensures that my life is alright it doesn't seem to impinge very much at any emotional or consciousness level. It is just a fact, rather than something to get seriously emotional about. Same for "England", "London" or indeed anywhere else.

That leads to a slight suspicion that people who really do feel a sort of emotional attachment to somewhere are trying quite hard to feel that, and could just stop bothering if it suited them. What those Cornish patriots who offered to burn down Rick Stein's restaurant, for example, have going through their heads really just puzzles me. Ah well.

I think the English have an identity issue or loss of identity that's not prevalent in Scotland and that's why the concept of Britishness is clearly so important to many people on here and elsewhere.

I agree with some of that but I would change the tense from present to past. I think English identity is very strong now, just as a populist example, you're unlikely to spot a union jack amongst the crosses of St George at a sporting event. In fact, if anything, I'd suggest that the sense of being English is greater than it ever was.

I am British then English, Mum was born in India in the last days of the empire, gran was Scots and the rest are from Northumberland. I also live in Sweden. I don't feel comfortable with the English thing as I feel no connection with London and the South East which is the "English" bit of England in my eyes.

I have a question can Scotland become independent as it is a constituent country of the UK. Wouldn't it be more like a split or divorce?

I have just been informed that Mel Gibson isn't Scottish. 😯

If someone asks where I'm from, I'll say the UK. If someone asks if I'm English, I'll say [b]no[/b]. British as a term seems a little uncomfortable in some ways, but not absolutely incorrect. If someone wants to think of me as Scottish, that's fine. In reality, I'm not [i]really[/i] any of them (Scottish, English, British) in any meaningful sense. I prefer having a strong sense of regional attachment and identify with family/cultural background(s), rather than an isolationist perspective that relies on what (to me) are rather arbitrary and outdated nationalist distinctions.

[edit] Geda, you seem to have an unusually similar background (Cross- border and svensk at least) to me. Strange coincedence. But what you say holds true- I can't identify with an idea of "England" or "Englishness", and have no desire to do so. Same for "Scotland" or "Scottishness".

FAIL!!!.

As a British citizen who has lived in a number of parts of England in the last 30 years, I find the level of feeling about this sort of thing a bit peculiar. I don't really understand what sort of "connection" anyone expects to feel

What you find peculiar is dependent on what you are familiar with. I am familiar with living in places with a strong geographical / cultural attachment, and find a lack of any understanding or identity with a place as peculiar.

The first time I encountered this sort of ambivalence to "place" was when I went to college in England. I found it to be a defining attribute of the English - and remember as a fresher having a conversation with a lad from Berkshire who just could not comprehend why myself and some Welsh and Scottish students had any feelings of identity to where we had come from.

What those Cornish patriots who offered to burn down Rick Stein's restaurant, for example, have going through their heads really just puzzles me.

The desperation of the disenfranchised - I suspect.

In my own 40 odd years Padstow has changed from a small but touristy fishing town, to a vision of Chelsea transported to the North Cornish coast. Rick Stein's original restaurant brought a lot of (largely welcome) attention and trade to Padstow - but now his branding is on everything - delis, fish and chip shops, you name it...

Despite all of the upmarket tourism, and a housing market driven to prices well beyond the affordability of most local people - Cornwall is on of the most impoverished areas of the UK. It is one of the few areas of the UK that still qualifies for EU objective 1 funding. Kids growing up in Cornwall have a choice between minimum wage jobs serving the rich (often seasonal) or leaving to get better paid jobs. I accept that these economic conditions are prevalent in many "desirable" areas, but become a volatile mix when the local population has a strong geographical cultutal identity.

Perhaps the problem would go away if we did not have that identity - personally, I feel that I would be losing something of myself...

Yes I take you point but to put it more clearly I think the English have an identity issue or loss of identity that's not prevalent in Scotland

I think that's true to an extent - eg folk music has no popular appeal in England and is seen as a weird minority thing, whereas it's pretty normal in Scotland.

and that's why the concept of Britishness is clearly so important to many people on here and elsewhere.

Don't really agree with this bit though - it's certainly not important to me.

I agree with this

Apart from the fact that it is a political entity that issues my passport, protects me and largely ensures that my life is alright it doesn't seem to impinge very much at any emotional or consciousness level. It is just a fact, rather than something to get seriously emotional about.

Geda. For you information England is the whole country, not just London and the SE! Take a look around, there are great places in England.

I think that's true to an extent - eg folk music has no popular appeal in England and is seen as a weird minority thing, whereas it's pretty normal in Scotland.

I think that comes into the realms of culture evolving again. I grew up in a part of Brum where there is a large carribean community, folk music for me is reggae as that's the sound that I grew up around. Folk music by definition is the music that people listen to and play, it doesn't have to be the music of tradition. Good job too, I hate that hey nonny nonny nonsense 😉

Todd Boy For your information I was born and brought up in Northumberland. Part of England but I just don't relate much to the image of England as it is all about cream teas, Cotswold cottages and cricket. Maybe if they moved the capital of England away from London? I grew up with lots of folk music and folk stories in Northumberland.

I love confusing undergrads with national identity discussions. Fact is, most people have multiple/hybrid national identities. I was born in London to an English mother and Irish father, but i am from the UK. I'm not English.

re. the proposed Scottish referendum on Scottish independence, doesn't the rest of the Union get a say?

Geda, good point. I was born and brought up in the NE. My first pride is that I am from that region, the second, that I am English. England is far from cream teas and the like.

England as it is all about cream teas, Cotswold cottages and cricket

England incorporates cream teas, cottages and cricket etc. I was born in lancashire, just outside a working class town (Wigan). I've had lovely cream teas sat amongst cottages in places from Cornwall to Cumbria. Seen (but hated) plenty of cricket across the areas too. I think you're tripping over the class issue, rather than the culture issue.

Try living in Australia with an accent like mine (NE England)!. Most people think that I am from; in descendind order, Scotland, Ireland, Wales,England,South Africa!

re. the proposed Scottish referendum on Scottish independence, doesn't the rest of the Union get a say?

Nope

"We are sovereign within the Union and we can walk out any time we want". Those are the exact words once uttered by Michael Forsyth, an arch-unionist and Secretary of State for Scotland under Margaret Thatcher, uttered January 1997

Not that we'll vote to go mind.

I always refer to this part of Europe as the UK

Moi, I'm English.

Never use the term British to describe myself, don't know why, but obviously use the term where appropriate, to describe Govt, Army etc

I think Great Britain is a geographical term meself, deccribes these (wonderful) islands. All of 'em. 😉

Part of England but I just don't relate much to the image of England

I feel no connection to being "British".

The way I look at being British is that I don't feel like I'm traveling into a foreign country when I drive down to England or Wales. I was born, I grew up and I live in Scotland but I don't consider the other parts of the UK as foreign.

I do often consider my nationality to be British. This is partly because as a schoolchild in Aberdeenshire with English parents and a fairly English accent, certain ignorant and unpleasant fellow pupils made me associate excessive national pride with being a narrowminded, racist tw*t...

To me, nationalist claims are inherently suppressive of difference (unless someone can point towards any nation where geographic, political and cultural (etc.) territories can be superimposed entirely), and I guess that's why I (and others on here) sceptical of claims to “British-ness”, “English-ness” or “Scottish-ness”.

For example, thinking about language, history, landscape and music... Growing up, I'd speak words of Norse, Danish, Lowland Scots and English origin, nearby riding would cover areas fought over by these groups and others at various points, with “locals” supporting and resisting these in an apparently incoherent manner. The landscape was formed by ice that covered most of Northern Europe, with geological origins shared between different present day nations. My extended family would be familiar with Doric or Gaelic, and some of my friends had similar roots. “Folk” music (which was by no means mainstream, but I happened to be into at one point) would typically be sung in dialect, but the tunes might have come from the Northern Isles, Highlands, Ireland, or travelled across the Atlantic and back. Much of the music we'd listen to would be “black” music or even “world” music (however stupid those terms are).

The point is, how would the specific histories that I associate with a given place register against a measure of English-ness, Scottish-ness or British-ness? To me they don't. I can view elements of all of these things as parts of wider processes without the need to invoke ideas of nationhood to make them meaningful to me.

Trailmonkey is getting at a good point- “tradition” is continually being produced, remade and contested. It seems that the most visible signs of “tradition” can be found outside situations that might be viewed as “modern” or mainstream, but in reality these “traditions” exist everywhere. There is nothing essential about English-ness or Scottish-ness or British-ness, and as far as I'm concerned they are not particularly useful terms, especially when they are used as a kind of fixed, incontrovertible statements of truth.

Christ, that was a **** ramble.

[edit]

[i] I just don't relate much to the image of England[i]

That's your perception and not reality. You are English.

That's you told then GEDA. And most of Northumberland, Cornwall, etc. etc... 🙄

So my mum was born in India and another Gran from Scotland and I live in Sweden. I feel myself British as I have some vague sense of place for the whole of the British Isles. Come to think of it countries are only there for the people at the top to control us so it is a bit more liberating to not think of yourself as belonging to any particular country. The SNP politicians do not really care that much about "Scotland" what they really want is power. Same with any politician or king they only want to control you and appeal to your sense of tribe.

"Scottish first, British Second" which is how a lot of Scottish people, regardless of their view on independence, view themselves

Tick!

Always described myself as such. European third, Earthling fourth. 🙂

If a form says "Nationality" I always put Scottish, I suspect most pancakes do likewise.

I hate all this SNP independence crap - we are part of the UK and I for one think Salmond should sod off...

I sincerely hope that we do get a referendum on independence and that the vote is to maintain the union. Purely in the hope that Salmond will stop harping on about how all Scots want independence.

No we don't thanks Alex. Actually a significant number think it would be a bad idea or at least have some major concerns.

Sorry that came out wrong, I meant to say that you are from England (not necessarily English). And Britain and the UK. But England still.
Christ, that was a **** ramble.

Wasn't it just.

 

Me - European first, British second and have no real feeling for England whatsoever although I was born here...why?

Mum: English (Wigan)
Dad: German (Hamburg)

Wife: Italian (Turin)
Daughter: Italian (born in Como)
Son: English (born Brighton)

Speak english, german and italian and have live in all 3 coutries.

I am proud to be european as it is such an ace place with great history and culture. I think Britain is a great concept and often feel proud of welsh/scottish/irish culture even though I have no real connection...go figure

Nothing to do with Scottish/British but I thought I'd share anyway! 8)

I always state that I am a citizen of Star-ship Earth.

Eh? Surely you're a gas giant, fifth planet from the Sun and the largest within the Solar System?

If you were here on Star-ship Earth then surely we'd know about it through all the crushing, dying and general apocalypse stuff.

i'm brirish

british when it suits me, irish when it suits me - really don't give a shot about nationality. why be proud of a country when you haven't made it as it is? and is it really more worthy of adulation or even appreciation than any other country?

i don't feel any identity to any bit of land or culture

i'd have a UN passport if i could

mleh

I never identify myself as British because it is regarded as a synonym for English in most countries, including by many English. I would have no problem with being regarded as British if it were otherwise.

I hope to see full independence for a Scottish republic in my lifetime.

Predictable, but someone has to do it ..

"I'm a Yorkshireman first, second and third!"

OK, now that's out of the way, I live in Scotland and cringe every time a positive achievement by a Scottish individual or team is reported as a British one. If pressed, I prefer to consider myself British than English.

finally, a rough and ready poll suggests that most of my friends/colleagues think the idea of devolution is barking!

Perhaps someone could recommend a good therapist?

Why be proud of a country when you haven't made it as it is?

Because it shows an understanding of the history and culture of a place, and shows an appreciation for the benefits that an accident of birth has bestowed upon you.

And conversely, if you can't feel proud of a place then how can you be ashamed of it when its communal values are not upheld?

I hope to see full independence for a Scottish republic in my lifetime.

*shudder*

I hope to see full independence for an English republic in my lifetime.

Me too.

Genuine question: What is the problem with [i]a positive achievement by a Scottish individual or team is reported as a British one[/i]?

I think everyone is aware that irritable almost-winner of tennis Andy Murray is Scottish, for example. No-one thinks he's English. Why does it annoy so many people that some people who are not Scots cheer for him and count his wins as wins that make them feel good?

Is it just because the reason provided is that he is described as British, and is supported as such by people who have more truck for "British" as an idea than you do?

i would see myself as british first and probably english second, either way i feel lucky to have grown up in a country with an NHS some amazing countryside, an attitude of tolerance and inclusion, the scouts, jumpers for goalposts etc
I never really appreciate my hometown when i was younger but as ive aged ive become a bigger fan of luton town fc and i love the dunstable downs
I think nationalism is tied in with sentimentality and to my mind thats a good thing only up to the point where it stops you thinking objectively
Therefore im always suspicous of anyone who harps on about nationalism too much, it smacks of someone who will defend his country or the actions of his countrymen even when they are in the wrong, it also implies that they think less of other countries or people which is quite frankly a load of tosh

BD - Using your example then, his results can be reported as a 'British success' one day and a 'Scottish failure' the next. I agree that either term might be used, but should be applied consistently.

Catching myself and wondering where I bought these tartan-tinted specs ...

BD: as above, I have no objection when "a positive achievement by a Scottish individual or team is reported as a British one" [u]as long as[/u] an English achievement is likewise "British" and the (sadly more common) failures are also "British".

What most Scots are sensitive to is that athletes/teams/whatever are only British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose, but conversely English when they are winning and British when they lose.

What most Scots are sensitive to is that athletes/teams/whatever are only British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose, but conversely English when they are winning and British when they lose.

Can anyone post an example of this actually happening? Posting articles from two different newspapers doesn't count btw.

[i]ScotlandTheScared
I'm Scottish. And I'm British. I hate all this SNP independence crap - we are part of the UK and I for one think Salmond should sod off...

GrahamS
Tick!
Always described myself as such. European third, Earthling fourth.
If a form says "Nationality" I always put Scottish, I suspect most pancakes do likewise.
I sincerely hope that we do get a referendum on independence and that the vote is to maintain the union. Purely in the hope that Salmond will stop harping on about how all Scots want independence.
No we don't thanks Alex. Actually a significant number think it would be a bad idea or at least have some major concerns.[/i]

That about sums it up for me too.

What most Scots are sensitive to is that athletes/teams/whatever are only British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose

I don't recall ever hearing about the British world elephant polo champions - not once

The BBC reported
[b][i]"Scotland are celebrating sporting glory after being crowned world champions of elephant polo ..........
.....With this victory, no one can deny Scotland are one of the world's sporting heavyweights"[/i][/b]

Stop laughing at the back there

[i]British when they are winning and Scottish when they lose[/i]

I must admit, I struggle to think of an example of this. Certainly I wasn't aware of Murray ceasing to be British on exiting Wimbledon for example.

Of course, I'm not sensitive to it so I wouldn't necessarily notice. But it would help my sense that this grievance is a [i]little[/i] out of proportion if someone could give us a reference. 🙂