[Closed] Scottish independence - why do only the Scots get to vote?

Happy Australia Day, by the way! Despite my pissing around on here, I'm actually working...

I dont mind ex-pats/non residents/citizens [ whatever we call you/them] voting if they pay tax here

I'm not sure you want to go down the route of making paying tax the qualification for voting though - that suggests that UK residents who don't pay tax shouldn't be voting and that non-UK resident non-UK citizens should be allowed to vote if they pay enough tax.

when the whole argument is mainly based around pride of being Scottish

1) That is not the whole argument or even the main part of it.

2) If there are (apparently hypothetical, so far) Scots who are butthurt at not being able to vote in Scottish elections and referenda - they should have stayed there if they wanted a voice. They weren't bitching about being able to vote in E&W&NI elections.

I find the ex pats being allowed to vote for 15 years somewhat strange.

Happy Australia Day, by the way! Despite my pissing around on here, I'm actually working...

And to you! I have the day off, but also a poorly wife, so not much happening here. May make the obligatory trip to the beach later though.

[b]when the whole argument is mainly based around pride of being Scottish and the self-determination thereof[/b]
1) That is not the whole argument or even the main part of it.

2) If there are (apparently hypothetical, so far) Scots who are butthurt at not being able to vote in Scottish elections and referenda - they should have stayed there if they wanted a voice. They weren't bitching about being able to vote in E&W&NI elections.

And it is the main part of the argument. To self-determine, presumably they feel some sort of pride as a 'people'? Otherwise what are they self-determining?

And unlike the disruption of moving to Oz (or Germany, or anywhere else, [i]foreign[/i]), moving to EWNI from S isn't crossing an international border, and you still get to cast your vote for MPs in Westminster wherever you are registered. This, I suspect, is why most people who move about within the UK don't bother with postal voting, they just vote from where they are. When you move abroad, that;s not the case, so setting up a postal vote makes more sense.

I find the ex pats being allowed to vote for 15 years somewhat strange.

Why? They are British citizens. One of the privileges of that is that they vote in British elections.

Why should people who don't live in a community get a say in how that community is run?

To self-determine, presumably they feel some sort of pride as a 'people'? Otherwise what are they self-determining?

2) The argument is that the economic, social and political policies which can and would be pursued by an independent Scotland would leave its inhabitants in a better place than staying part of the UK.

You're trying to make out as if Scottish republicanism has been forty years of facepaint, tartan and bellowing cod poetry, and that the arguments for independence are irrational, emotive and identity-based. Apart from a few dickheads, they're not - the debate is far more sophisticated than that (although you don't hear much about it in detail outside Scottish media, obviously). The SNP line has pretty much always been "we're so fantastically European, we'll join the Euro, we'll be the second Celtic Tiger, isn't it great?", which is exactly why Cameron is using this moment (Euro in meltdown, Irish economy down the tubes, EU not looking too happy) to push an issue which has pretty much been on the backburner.

Whether or not Scottish independence is a good thing is a question, but either way the debate is more sophisticated than "we should be independent because we're Scots and we're better than all you bastards".

This, I suspect, is why most people who move about within the UK don't bother with postal voting, they just vote from where they are.

BTW, postal voting is not the same as overseas elector voting. Before 2001, postal voting was something you had to apply for and give a good reason for. Now it's being allowed because people can't be arsed to show up to the polls, which [i]partially[/i] explains lower turnouts in the last twenty years.

Seems a bit silly to split up a small island into smaller bits what next Yorkshire, Suffolk ?

Also why is Europe so necassary as a union but the one thats been in place for 300 years so bad. Salmond is on a glory trip.

I'm an Australian resident living in Adelaide, but I am a British citizen, and have a postal vote in the UK general election to decide who gets to sit in Westminster on my behalf from Bolton West. My brother is a German resident living in Berlin, but again is a British citizen, and again has a postal vote in the UK general election.

Personally, I have far more of a problem with this - why should someone get to participate in the democratic processes of a country you don't contribute to.

It's worse than that ditch_jockey. A few years ago there was a report of an austrailian resident, who was also a member of the House of Lords, who flew to the UK on holiday to participate in one of the Lords debates. Only in the UK could such a thing be allowed...

Who was that?

I'm an Australian resident living in Adelaide, but I am a British citizen, and have a postal vote in the UK general election to decide who gets to sit in Westminster on my behalf from Bolton West. My brother is a German resident living in Berlin, but again is a British citizen, and again has a postal vote in the UK general election.

The people of the United Kingdom have democratically elected a government at Westminster who seem relatively content to allow the people of Scotland to have their referendum on Independence. To do otherwise might be seen as "oppression" which would only bolster the division campaign. It is surely better to have a sensible discussion about the future and then an "amicable" split if that is what one party agrees rather than refuse the discussion, force the partner to remain against its will (if that is the case) and potentially end up with blood on the streets in decades to come because the people believe they have been oppressed. Alternatively lets have the discussion and the vote, you may find that the people of Scotland are quite content to stay and by not refusing them the chance to express their opinion don't feel oppressed.

I've forgotten. It was many years ago and featured on the BBC news, so far Googling has yielded nothing.

The fact we're British citizens. That's what.

But you don’t live here, don’t pay tax here , voluntarily left and yet you keep a say in what happens here…it just seems odd that ex pats get a say when they don’t live here tbh
People born in Scotland but still living within the union don’t get a say ..I am not sure what the principle at work here is tbh but it is not being applied universally.

I'm not sure you want to go down the route of making paying tax the qualification for voting though

It is in relation to ex-pats not residents. If you live here it is pretty obvious why you get a vote and I doubt we need to debate this principle.

However I don’t see how someone who does not lives here and is {largely] unaffected by the decisions the govt makes gets a say in that govt.

Why? They are British citizens. One of the privileges of that is that they vote in British elections which have no effect on them at all as they live somewhere eels and don’t pay tax here

You may disagree but the point is a fairly obvious one as made here.

Personally, I have far more of a problem with this - why should someone get to participate in the democratic processes of a country you don't contribute to.

It is this you get as much say as me but you are obviously far less affected than I am by the outcome – it probably makes F all difference to your daily life what with you being on the other side of the world etc.

The SNP line has pretty much always been "we're so fantastically European, we'll join the Euro, we'll be the second Celtic Tiger, isn't it great?"

I find that hard to believe. The SNP existed before the common market and the EU, predates the Euro by several years and for most of its existence there was no concept of a "celtic tiger".

But that wouldn't stop them jumping on that bandwagon...

The BBC have just announced that Mel Gibson will NOT get to vote.

Personally, I have far more of a problem with this

Thankfully, I and I'm sure most other ex-pats don't give a fig what you have a problem with. And soon, if you're so hell-bent on leaving the union, you won't have reason to care anyway. Why should you worry about something that doesn't concern your country?

voluntarily left

Not really. It was move abroad or become a 'drain' on the welfare system joining the 20% or so of young people who are unemployed.

Why? They are British citizens. One of the privileges of that is that they vote in British elections which may have no effect on them for now as they live somewhere else at the moment and don’t pay tax here, but are quite likely to return at a later date when there are jobs

FTFIFY

TJ, are you Scottish or a Scottish resident? Just intrigued, no axe to grind

Just intrigued, no axe to grind

I can see this becoming a catch phrase on here

Scottish resident. what I believe is referred to as an "assimilated scot"

English by birth, British by nationality, Scotland is my home. Crossing the border going north feels like going home. You cannot change what is in your heart easily.

TJ - you live in Edinburgh don't you? That's hardly really Scotland - I mean it's named after an English king and not even one of the benign ones (Edward's town).

Not that I'm from Glasgow originally or anything.

At the end of the day who can and cannot vote becomes a practical exercise. The electoral register is easily available. To allow anyone else to claim Scottish ancestry in some form would be a nightmare. Just because you have been born in Scotland and choose to live elsewhere, does not give you the right to vote in Scottish elections or referendum.

If you want to vote in the referendum, then you need to be on the electoral register. This is regulated by UK rules and as such normally you need to register in the area where you live.

The whole idea of allowing people who live overseas to vote in UK elections has been taken too far. If you live abroad (i.e. you home is outside of the UK) then you should not be allowed to vote in any UK elections. But this is a whole new topic!

lol@igm

I find that hard to believe. The SNP existed before the common market and the EU, predates the Euro by several years and for most of its existence there was no concept of a "celtic tiger".

I suspect its been the line since Salmond's been in charge. Perhaps the party's motives would have been clearer if he rebranded - how about "New SNP".

Thankfully, I and I'm sure most other ex-pats don't give a fig what you have a problem with.

And soon, if you're so hell-bent on leaving the union, you won't have reason to care anyway. Why should you worry about something that doesn't concern your country?

Of course its currently quite possible that Scotland doesn't leave the union, but your ex pat issue won't have gone away - so I don't see why as an undecided Scottish voter I can't express an opinion on it!

I had an epiphany while cycling this morning. Alex Salmond is a good guy after all, a true good Samaritan. STW lore states that there are two groups of pariahs in the Uk - bankers and public sector workers. Given that Scotland employs a greater share of both, dear Mr Salmond is obviously creating a homeland for the true, needy and oppressed segments of our society. I take back all my cynicism. What a bloke. You can keep you Daves your Nicks and you Eds. Vote for Alex for an end to oppression. He can invest NSO supporting them both.

Zokes, he may even provide a home for the Aboriginal news makers today?

Igm, doesn't the extent or type of your Scottishness depend on whether you summer at Salcombe-on-the-Forth, sorry Elie, or elsewhere?

Zokes, he may even provide a home for the Aboriginal news makers today?

Heh - pity they didn't get to Abbott - the guy makes dubya look both moderate and intelligent.

mmm... that attitude really encourages the wider population of the UK to support "I'm all-right-jack" ex pats doesn't it? Voting reform will come, in one form or another - don't be surprised if you find the people of the UK disinclined to allow ex Pats to milk the rest of us for what they can whilst looking down their noses at us.

That was an attitude directed at D_J, hence why I quoted him.

Not really sure there's much looking down my nose at non-ex-pats. The only reason I'm out here (and by association, my wife too) is that there weren't (and still aren't, judging by the jobs.ac.uk emails I get) many jobs available. So I could have either wasted that long education paid for mainly by the British tax payer and 'taken' (in Ernie's words) someone else's job in Tesco's, or sat on the dole - both options pretty much leaving me with no chance to get back into my career, as it's so competitive that breaks generally mean end of the road.

Or, I could have been proactive, found a post that allows me to develop further, with a view to returning at the earliest opportunity, and continuing to contribute. Funnily enough, this was the path I chose.

What I don't get is why everyone looks on ex-pats with that attitude. Sure, for a few it's off for a nice life in the sun, but for a lot of young professionals, it's because they can't find a job in the UK. Or presumably, you'd prefer us to forego the sunshine and sit on the dole? Jealous much?

I have no problem with you being in Aus Zokes - however I do not think you should be allowed to vote. in the UK - certainly after say 2 years abroad

however I do not think you should be allowed to vote. in the UK - certainly after say 2 years abroad

Why? I'm a british citizen, and have a democratic right to vote in the country that I'm a citizen of.

TBH zokes whilst tebbit comends you for getting on your bike I dont actually care. It is your life and you can live it how you feel fit and do what you want.

I dont see why someone who does not live here or pay taxes here has the right to vote here.

EDIT: becaus eyou contribute nothing to the country currently and the impact of decisions has next to no impact on your life in Australia

You may disagree but you cannot really find the argument a surprising one or one that is difficult to grasp

I find that hard to believe. The SNP existed before the common market and the EU, predates the Euro by several years and for most of its existence there was no concept of a "celtic tiger".

I remember the SNP's party line in the late 80s/early 90s was "independence within Europe" so they've been pro-EU for quite a while.

Or presumably, you'd prefer us to forego the sunshine and sit on the dole? Jealous much?

You may disagree but you cannot really find the argument a surprising one or one that is difficult to grasp

You may disagree but you cannot really find the argument a surprising one or one that is difficult to grasp

No, I get the argument. But thankfully, the law seems to be with me. I don't imagine I'll stay in Oz for ever, and I presume I'll be back in the UK sooner or later. Therefore British policies do directly affect me.

One example:

Going to war in my country's name doesn't affect me any more than it does anyone who lives in the UK (apart from the armed forces), but I'm buggered if I don't get a futile way to say 'I didn't vote for this' as much as anyone else with half a conscience did.

As long as they leave Islay for me they can do what they want 🙂

In fact if they want away from us that much give em a big boat and ship em off , and the welsh too and come to think of it the dogs that hang around bike trails

Runs off to hide 😉

TJ - fair enough I thought that was so, just checking. That's all.

**sound of sharpening blade in background** 😉

I went to school in weegieland

Zokes - your situation is an interesting one and a case that should not be dismissed out of hand. After all, this is not a vote about economics or convenience, it is (or should be) a vote about the fundamental principle of self determination for Scottish people. Simplicity in voting arrangements should not be the deciding factor here. (OOI - who is paying for the referendum?)

But you have SFA chance of being successful as the fact that you have made a positive choice to move away to find suitable employment will inevitably lead to a perception of a natural bias in your voting pattern. Hmmm....!?!?

But JY raises and interesting point re taxation being the principle yardstick against which to make a judgment here. So imagine you are a Scot with Scottish family for several generations, a Scottish education who would like to live in Scotland but you decide to make a career decision to work overseas for a period before (possibly) returning home. Your view on what happens to your country of birth, ancestory, possible future location etc is considered to be of less value/relevance than someone who has no ancestoral/family ties to Scotland, was not born or bred there, who may or may not be a permanent resident, who is not (for the sake of argument and thru no fault of their own) in employment (and therefore not paying JY's taxes) but is claiming benefits from the Scottish state (perfectly legitimately).

I will have to have a think about that one!!

Therefore British policies do directly affect me.

You may be the exception, but I don't know anyone who left the UK long term to find work abroad who wasn't also 'expecting a better life' in the country they were going to.

I guess I came here expecting it to be different, and sure, there are some fabulous places that it would be churlish to not pay attention to.

But TBH, lose 2 weeks of your 4 of leave visiting family back in the UK, or hosting them here, and you don't get much time to see a great deal. Work's work - same mad number of hours whether its sunny and 40 or dark and -10! There is a feeling of a better work-life balance here, but that's rapidly changing even in the 18 months I've been here. Sadly, it's just not that competitive in the international marketplace, and people here are starting to realise that.

I'll not say I'm not enjoying it, because that would be a lie, but it's certainly not a better life - more a different one through necessity of work.

I think many who come truly expecting a transformed life either led a very crap one in Blighty, or have failed to grasp that it's not a holiday, and setting up from scratch knowing noone and very little about the place you're in can be quite a stressful exercise.

And back to voting in UK elections, as I said - as I'm a British citizen, the UK government does lots of 'international relations' stuff on my behalf. I'd rather have a say, however futile, in the image it portrays of my country. More importantly, I'd rather it just stopped picking fights with people full stop, but that's yet another issue.

JY - think about laterally. He is - he has decided not to be a drain on the state after all!

(But he says, with tongue in cheek, perhaps he neither works in financial services (spit) nor the public sector (spit) and hence has no reason to be in Scotland at all :wink:).

Anyway lunch over...back to work.

Hope you are coping with the public sector cuts, the wage freeze , the increase in VAT and the change to tax codes etc which all have F all affect on you etc
And fade to repeat from us both

PMSL!

Sorry, but if you'd not got it, that's the very reason I had to leave - bugger all chance of ANY employment thanks to pretty much all of the above (with the exception of the VAT)

So in forcing me to leave to find work, those policies have actually had more of an effect on me than you.

EDIT: Hint - The only places that would need / use my skills would be universities or government-run research organisations such as CEH. So I was, up until I left, very much a public servant. If you had a valid argument, that wasn't it.

it is slightly bemusing that a "[i]insert EU nationality"[/i]" plumber or a "[i]insert non EU nationality"[/i]" refugee living in Scotland has a vote and Sean Connery doesn't 😉

I'm sure Sean Connery will be relocating so he can vote.... at very least large lumps of his cash will be relocating.

a bit like a Polish student paying less than an English one?

whatnobeer - Member
I'm sure Sean Connery will be relocating so he can vote.... at very least large lumps of his cash will be relocating.

a scotsman with a heart or money decision to make, I know which way social stereotyping would say he would go 😉