Apologies if this has been done before (realise there is almost a thread a day on this)... but as it's something that would impact all of us in the UK, it seems strange to me that the referendum is only for those who live in Scotland. Was wondering why all of us in the Union don't get to vote on this? Don't think I've heard anyone argue for it in the media either.
Google "Self Determination"
think of it like a divorce. Should divorces only be granted if both people want to split up, or just one. I
Also, who's paying the c.£300m bill for this farce! If the Scotchish become independent, I vote we send them the bill.
what, you mean you want to vote on whether to chuck them out? 😈
I'll say it again; we need a referendum on English independence.
But its not 'Scots' who will get the vote, but only people who are registered as living in Scotland.
Scot living in Scotland - Vote
Anyone else living in Scotland - Vote
Scot not living in Scotland - No Vote
Does seem strange especially when polls suggest that the Scots want to stay in the union and the English and Welsh are happy to see them out of the union...
Google "Self Determination"
You can google it all you like. It won't explain to you how you determine the concept of 'peoples' that is inherently tied up with the concept of self determination.
But its not 'Scots' who will get the vote, but only people who are registered as living in Scotland.
That seems fair enough to me. If I lived there and would be governed by any new Government then I would expect a vote. If I didn't then I wouldn't.
Are the Welsh happy to chuck Scotland out though? All the stuff i've seen only mentions the English, any ideas on how the Welsh view Scots Independence?
Talk all you want about spin being bad but they've done it again.
Watch the rabid right papers for the next government policy.
We had "public sector is overpaid and overpensioned" then the cuts.
We've had the "SCotland/West Lothian question is unfair" and now with CMD pushing the right buttons look where we are.
What next?
People on the news tonight complaining that they are true Scots, but because of living in England for work they don't have a vote....
Seems like a simple solution if you want a vote then 😉
hopefully they will get independence then we might be spared the dirge of Rabbie Burns once and for all.
Oh i don't know, i like haggis and whisky - it's the abominable poetry that bothers me! 😛
If someone comes to your house enters freely then asks to leave and you dont let them ...is that fair? No
Can you ask them to leave yes if you want to
etc
if you want seperate vote on asking them to leave ask Dave...he seemed keen on european one so I think you might just get one 😉
JY - Your analogy doesn't quite work though does it? The rest of the UK can't ask Scotland to leave it seems.
I get a vote 🙂
Who gets to vote really is at the heart of the issue, and its on several levels.
Firstly, its quite normal for ex-pats and people working overseas to have the right to vote even if they do not return home. In this instance its a bit of a toughy, as there is no record of who is and isn't Scottish, and thereby hangs the tale. The fact is Scottishness is now so intertwined with being British that it makes the whole concept of independence a complete farce, and thats why Salmond has to insist on the disenfranchisement of Scots everywhere, except where it suits him. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone in these isles without some claim somewhere to some bloody tartan or other, and that fact also applies to large swathes of the rest of the world.
Secondly, there are a whole raft of people who reside in Scotland who have no claim whatsoever to be Scottish. As I posted earlier Terry Butcher, ex England Football Captain to name but one. On what basis does he get a vote for the independence or otherwise of the place? If an Englishman living in Scotland can vote why can't a Scot living in England? That one sentence sums up the ridiculousness of the issue.
Thirdly, whether Salmond or TJ like it or not, the outcome of this vote will have a profound effect on the Union which we are all part of. I can see no reason whatsoever, why my opinion on that matter has less validity than that of someone living across some imaginery line that used to be a border and now in reality isn't.
The whole issue is a farce from start to finish and is clearly being manipulated by Salmond to suit his own ends, which is his right. However it is also mine to have a say in what happens in the democracy in which both he and I live until there is a democratic decision to change that status quo.
I'll say it again; we need a referendum on English independence.
Why ? There is absolutely no chance whatsoever of the English voting for independence.
Maybe you just fancy an expensive and futile exercise for a laugh ?
the outcome of this vote will have a profound effect on the Union which we are all part of. I can see no reason whatsoever, why my opinion on that matter has less validity than that of someone living across some imaginery line that used to be a border and now in reality isn't.
This
The whole issue is a farce from start to finish and is clearly being manipulated by Salmond and Cameron to suit their own ends
FIFY
I would assume if you live in Scotland/are registered as living in Scotland you get a vote.(my neighbour works in middle East most of year but his home/family are here as such he should qualify to vote). If however you have 'jumped ship' and are based down south (set up family home) then you do not qualify.
Why ? There is absolutely no chance whatsoever of the English voting for independence.
Why not?
Maybe you just fancy an expensive and futile exercise for a laugh ?
Why not?
And it's quite normal for them NOT to have a vote. This isn't a new situationBerm Bandit - MemberFirstly, its quite normal for ex-pats and people working overseas to have the right to vote even if they do not return home.
That's correct. it's easy to identify who was [i]born[/i] in Scotland, less easy to work out who has "naturalised".there is no record of who is and isn't Scottish,
We call them "residents". They normally get a vote on account of them living here. I believe this is common practice outside Scotland too?Secondly, there are a whole raft of people who reside in Scotland who have no claim whatsoever to be Scottish.
It's still a border.Thirdly, whether Salmond or TJ like it or not, the outcome of this vote will have a profound effect on the Union which we are all part of. I can see no reason whatsoever, why my opinion on that matter has less validity than that of someone living across some imaginery line that used to be a border and now in reality isn't.
Its depressing how quickly this subject ends up falling into a typical "us and them" argument. Alot of which relies on whipping up jingoistic and patriotic bullshit on both sides to created tension before the real pros and cons are really argued over.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Could you think of a way to change it?TheBrick - Member
Its depressing how quickly this subject ends up falling into a typical "us and them" argument. Alot of which relies on whipping up jingoistic and patriotic bullshit on both sides to created tension before the real pros and cons are really argued over.
I can think of two...
(a) resort to the former nations.
(b) do away with the nations altogether.
I could sell someone my vote? what am I bid?
i have two spare helmets
Berm Bandit - your post is barking up totally the wrong tree.
The people who will vote in the referendum are the people who are on the electoral roll for Scottish constituencies - simple as that. There is not, and never has been, and never will be, a "Scottishness" test.
coffee - check
Hob-nobs - check
Bet raised with Ladbrokes on how long it takes for the mudslinging to start and the thread closed - check
Anyone who has Scottish passport should be able to vote ... 😆
There is not, and never has been, and never will be, a "Scottishness".
..... and that is precisely what I said, and also why the whole issue is a farce. Its a relevant as banging on about the independence for Avalon.
They normally get a vote on account of them living here
Well actually you only get a vote if you qualify to have one, not merely by dint of living there. Again that's the point isn't it there isn't any qualifying criteria, other than simple residence which reinforces the point about the independent nation of Scotland i.e. its an irrelevant issue from history.
Do you think there might be a reason for that? Could you think of a way to change it?
I can think of two...(a) resort to the former nations.
(b) do away with the nations altogether.
Neither would work because of human nature imo. Its impossible as human we are depressingly predisposed to it, if its not the next door country its the next door town. We can however recognise when we are using these tribal arguments and refrain from them.
In this particular case I don't have a strong view as I'm not up in the issues so say I'm pro Scottish independence or not. It just annoying to wade though the tribalism that crops up particularly strongly on this issue, being as it is a long running historical divide.
muddydwarf - JY - Your analogy doesn't quite work though does it? The rest of the UK can't ask Scotland to leave it seems.
You probably can, if you can get a parliamentary majority in favour of it. That might be a bit tricky given that the official policy of at least 95% of the MPs is "pro-union".
For anyone moaning about why the English/Welsh residents do not get a vote let me ask you this. If the UK wanted to leave the EU would you expect the French/Germans etc to have a vote?
that is precisely what I said, and also why the whole issue is a farce.
Sorry - I missed off the last word of my post and it totally changes the meaning. I meant "Scottishness" tests had never existed, not Scottishness!
Scottishness does exist, whether you like it or not. This can be seen simply because so many people believe in it and treat it as it exists. Like all nationality, like Englishness, Britishness, Germanness, Lochness, it's beyond reason and fact - it's an "[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_communities ]imagined community[/url]". But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
However, you should also pay more attention to the fact that the SNP has never advocated independence on the basis of crude nationalism or some sort of special messianic destiny for the Scots (whoever they are). It has always been (attempted to be) justified on concrete economic and political terms, and there has never been any suggestion that an independent Scotland would want or attempt to treat the people who live there based on their (imagined) historical origin.
you need this:
and the rest.
For anyone moaning about why the English/Welsh residents do not get a vote let me ask you this. If the UK wanted to leave the EU would you expect the French/Germans etc to have a vote?
Well now we're in the EU, yes, I would expect all members to have a say as to who is allowed in and out. And those members may well decide to make that decision via a referendum. I don't know if this is the way it works, but if it did then it wouldn't seem unreasonable given that the impact on those members could be significant.
when the sporan botherer's do up sticks will there be an import duty on Irn Bru.
I am still looking for bids for my vote
mrblobby get back under your bridge
And it's quite normal for them NOT to have a vote.
No it's not.
I'm an Australian resident living in Adelaide, but I am a British citizen, and have a postal vote in the UK general election to decide who gets to sit in Westminster on my behalf from Bolton West. My brother is a German resident living in Berlin, but again is a British citizen, and again has a postal vote in the UK general election.
This is easy to sort out for current international migration as there is official paperwork to denote nationality. It's very difficult to sort out for the Scots/UK debate, as beyond where someone lives, there's no record of them being English / Scottish / Welsh / Northern Irish / Cornish / Mercian.......
Simply using the existing electoral register is flawed on many levels, not least on the point I just highlighted. Any Scots who live abroad from the UK, but have a postal vote registered in Scotland can vote, yet the presumably much larger number of Scots in England, Wales and Northern Ireland cannot? That's a very very strange, and at best, lazy solution.
do you pay tax here or your brother?
Not trolling or having a personal dig i just wondered what the rules were tbh
I dont mind ex-pats/non residents/citizens [ whatever we call you/them] voting if they pay tax here. Otherwise I dont see wtf it has to do with them who governs here or what they do as they wont be paying tbh.
Any [s]Scots [/s] UK citizens on the electoral role of a Scottish constituency who live abroad from the UK, but [s]have a postal vote registered in Scotland [/s]can vote, yet the presumably much larger number of Scots in England, Wales and Northern Ireland cannot?
FTFY. It makes perfect sense. Scottishness is not the qualification for voting in Scottish elections or referenda.
Personally, I'm sympathetic to the argument that non-residents shouldn't be allowed to vote in elections at all.
do you pay tax here or your brother?
If I still made money in the UK (from property for example), then yes, I'd pay UK tax on that. But not for my Australian earnings, no. I pay Australian tax on those. Curiously, I'd also pay Australian tax on my already UK-taxed earnings, if I had any. I'm not sure if the reverse is true for either Aussies in the UK, or if I had property here and moved back home.
I'm not sure about my brother, but as Germany is in the EU, i suspect that the double-taxation thing wouldn't happen. However, I also suggest that if he's paying tax in Germany, more deprived parts of the UK will be getting some of it anyway through Objective 1 and convergence funding (if these still exist)
Otherwise I dont see wtf it has to do with them tbh.
The fact we're British citizens. That's what.
Interestingly though, I can't vote in Aussie elections until I become an Australian citizen, if I choose.
Scottishness is not the qualification for voting in Scottish elections or referenda.
For elections, I agree, but for something as deep as constitutionally severing part of a country, when the whole argument is mainly based around pride of being Scottish, and self determination thereof, I'm not so sure it makes any sense at all
