[Closed] Scottish independence - why do only the Scots get to vote?

Google "Self Determination"

think of it like a divorce. Should divorces only be granted if both people want to split up, or just one. I

Also, who's paying the c.£300m bill for this farce! If the Scotchish become independent, I vote we send them the bill.

what, you mean you want to vote on whether to chuck them out? 😈

I'll say it again; we need a referendum on English independence.

But its not 'Scots' who will get the vote, but only people who are registered as living in Scotland.

Scot living in Scotland - Vote
Anyone else living in Scotland - Vote
Scot not living in Scotland - No Vote

Does seem strange especially when polls suggest that the Scots want to stay in the union and the English and Welsh are happy to see them out of the union...

Google "Self Determination"

You can google it all you like. It won't explain to you how you determine the concept of 'peoples' that is inherently tied up with the concept of self determination.

But its not 'Scots' who will get the vote, but only people who are registered as living in Scotland.

That seems fair enough to me. If I lived there and would be governed by any new Government then I would expect a vote. If I didn't then I wouldn't.

Are the Welsh happy to chuck Scotland out though? All the stuff i've seen only mentions the English, any ideas on how the Welsh view Scots Independence?

Talk all you want about spin being bad but they've done it again.

Watch the rabid right papers for the next government policy.

We had "public sector is overpaid and overpensioned" then the cuts.

We've had the "SCotland/West Lothian question is unfair" and now with CMD pushing the right buttons look where we are.

What next?

People on the news tonight complaining that they are true Scots, but because of living in England for work they don't have a vote....

Seems like a simple solution if you want a vote then 😉

hopefully they will get independence then we might be spared the dirge of Rabbie Burns once and for all.

Oh i don't know, i like haggis and whisky - it's the abominable poetry that bothers me! 😛

If someone comes to your house enters freely then asks to leave and you dont let them ...is that fair? No
Can you ask them to leave yes if you want to
etc

if you want seperate vote on asking them to leave ask Dave...he seemed keen on european one so I think you might just get one 😉

JY - Your analogy doesn't quite work though does it? The rest of the UK can't ask Scotland to leave it seems.

I get a vote 🙂

Who gets to vote really is at the heart of the issue, and its on several levels.

Firstly, its quite normal for ex-pats and people working overseas to have the right to vote even if they do not return home. In this instance its a bit of a toughy, as there is no record of who is and isn't Scottish, and thereby hangs the tale. The fact is Scottishness is now so intertwined with being British that it makes the whole concept of independence a complete farce, and thats why Salmond has to insist on the disenfranchisement of Scots everywhere, except where it suits him. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone in these isles without some claim somewhere to some bloody tartan or other, and that fact also applies to large swathes of the rest of the world.

Secondly, there are a whole raft of people who reside in Scotland who have no claim whatsoever to be Scottish. As I posted earlier Terry Butcher, ex England Football Captain to name but one. On what basis does he get a vote for the independence or otherwise of the place? If an Englishman living in Scotland can vote why can't a Scot living in England? That one sentence sums up the ridiculousness of the issue.

Thirdly, whether Salmond or TJ like it or not, the outcome of this vote will have a profound effect on the Union which we are all part of. I can see no reason whatsoever, why my opinion on that matter has less validity than that of someone living across some imaginery line that used to be a border and now in reality isn't.

The whole issue is a farce from start to finish and is clearly being manipulated by Salmond to suit his own ends, which is his right. However it is also mine to have a say in what happens in the democracy in which both he and I live until there is a democratic decision to change that status quo.

I'll say it again; we need a referendum on English independence.

Why ? There is absolutely no chance whatsoever of the English voting for independence.

Maybe you just fancy an expensive and futile exercise for a laugh ?

the outcome of this vote will have a profound effect on the Union which we are all part of. I can see no reason whatsoever, why my opinion on that matter has less validity than that of someone living across some imaginery line that used to be a border and now in reality isn't.

This

The whole issue is a farce from start to finish and is clearly being manipulated by Salmond and Cameron to suit their own ends

FIFY

I would assume if you live in Scotland/are registered as living in Scotland you get a vote.(my neighbour works in middle East most of year but his home/family are here as such he should qualify to vote). If however you have 'jumped ship' and are based down south (set up family home) then you do not qualify.

Why ? There is absolutely no chance whatsoever of the English voting for independence.

Why not?

Maybe you just fancy an expensive and futile exercise for a laugh ?

Why not?

Berm Bandit - Member

Firstly, its quite normal for ex-pats and people working overseas to have the right to vote even if they do not return home.

there is no record of who is and isn't Scottish,

Secondly, there are a whole raft of people who reside in Scotland who have no claim whatsoever to be Scottish.

Thirdly, whether Salmond or TJ like it or not, the outcome of this vote will have a profound effect on the Union which we are all part of. I can see no reason whatsoever, why my opinion on that matter has less validity than that of someone living across some imaginery line that used to be a border and now in reality isn't.

Its depressing how quickly this subject ends up falling into a typical "us and them" argument. Alot of which relies on whipping up jingoistic and patriotic bullshit on both sides to created tension before the real pros and cons are really argued over.

TheBrick - Member
Its depressing how quickly this subject ends up falling into a typical "us and them" argument. Alot of which relies on whipping up jingoistic and patriotic bullshit on both sides to created tension before the real pros and cons are really argued over.

I can think of two...

(a) resort to the former nations.
(b) do away with the nations altogether.

I could sell someone my vote? what am I bid?

i have two spare helmets

Berm Bandit - your post is barking up totally the wrong tree.

The people who will vote in the referendum are the people who are on the electoral roll for Scottish constituencies - simple as that. There is not, and never has been, and never will be, a "Scottishness" test.

coffee - check
Hob-nobs - check
Bet raised with Ladbrokes on how long it takes for the mudslinging to start and the thread closed - check

Anyone who has Scottish passport should be able to vote ... 😆

There is not, and never has been, and never will be, a "Scottishness".

..... and that is precisely what I said, and also why the whole issue is a farce. Its a relevant as banging on about the independence for Avalon.

They normally get a vote on account of them living here

Do you think there might be a reason for that? Could you think of a way to change it?
I can think of two...

(a) resort to the former nations.
(b) do away with the nations altogether.

Neither would work because of human nature imo. Its impossible as human we are depressingly predisposed to it, if its not the next door country its the next door town. We can however recognise when we are using these tribal arguments and refrain from them.

In this particular case I don't have a strong view as I'm not up in the issues so say I'm pro Scottish independence or not. It just annoying to wade though the tribalism that crops up particularly strongly on this issue, being as it is a long running historical divide.

muddydwarf - JY - Your analogy doesn't quite work though does it? The rest of the UK can't ask Scotland to leave it seems.

You probably can, if you can get a parliamentary majority in favour of it. That might be a bit tricky given that the official policy of at least 95% of the MPs is "pro-union".

For anyone moaning about why the English/Welsh residents do not get a vote let me ask you this. If the UK wanted to leave the EU would you expect the French/Germans etc to have a vote?

that is precisely what I said, and also why the whole issue is a farce.

Scottishness does exist, whether you like it or not. This can be seen simply because so many people believe in it and treat it as it exists. Like all nationality, like Englishness, Britishness, Germanness, Lochness, it's beyond reason and fact - it's an "[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_communities ]imagined community[/url]". But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

However, you should also pay more attention to the fact that the SNP has never advocated independence on the basis of crude nationalism or some sort of special messianic destiny for the Scots (whoever they are). It has always been (attempted to be) justified on concrete economic and political terms, and there has never been any suggestion that an independent Scotland would want or attempt to treat the people who live there based on their (imagined) historical origin.

you need this:

and the rest.

For anyone moaning about why the English/Welsh residents do not get a vote let me ask you this. If the UK wanted to leave the EU would you expect the French/Germans etc to have a vote?

Well now we're in the EU, yes, I would expect all members to have a say as to who is allowed in and out. And those members may well decide to make that decision via a referendum. I don't know if this is the way it works, but if it did then it wouldn't seem unreasonable given that the impact on those members could be significant.

when the sporan botherer's do up sticks will there be an import duty on Irn Bru.

I am still looking for bids for my vote

mrblobby get back under your bridge

And it's quite normal for them NOT to have a vote.

No it's not.

I'm an Australian resident living in Adelaide, but I am a British citizen, and have a postal vote in the UK general election to decide who gets to sit in Westminster on my behalf from Bolton West. My brother is a German resident living in Berlin, but again is a British citizen, and again has a postal vote in the UK general election.

This is easy to sort out for current international migration as there is official paperwork to denote nationality. It's very difficult to sort out for the Scots/UK debate, as beyond where someone lives, there's no record of them being English / Scottish / Welsh / Northern Irish / Cornish / Mercian.......

Simply using the existing electoral register is flawed on many levels, not least on the point I just highlighted. Any Scots who live abroad from the UK, but have a postal vote registered in Scotland can vote, yet the presumably much larger number of Scots in England, Wales and Northern Ireland cannot? That's a very very strange, and at best, lazy solution.

do you pay tax here or your brother?

Not trolling or having a personal dig i just wondered what the rules were tbh
I dont mind ex-pats/non residents/citizens [ whatever we call you/them] voting if they pay tax here. Otherwise I dont see wtf it has to do with them who governs here or what they do as they wont be paying tbh.

Any [s]Scots [/s] UK citizens on the electoral role of a Scottish constituency who live abroad from the UK, but [s]have a postal vote registered in Scotland [/s]can vote, yet the presumably much larger number of Scots in England, Wales and Northern Ireland cannot?

FTFY. It makes perfect sense. Scottishness is not the qualification for voting in Scottish elections or referenda.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the argument that non-residents shouldn't be allowed to vote in elections at all.

do you pay tax here or your brother?

If I still made money in the UK (from property for example), then yes, I'd pay UK tax on that. But not for my Australian earnings, no. I pay Australian tax on those. Curiously, I'd also pay Australian tax on my already UK-taxed earnings, if I had any. I'm not sure if the reverse is true for either Aussies in the UK, or if I had property here and moved back home.

I'm not sure about my brother, but as Germany is in the EU, i suspect that the double-taxation thing wouldn't happen. However, I also suggest that if he's paying tax in Germany, more deprived parts of the UK will be getting some of it anyway through Objective 1 and convergence funding (if these still exist)

Otherwise I dont see wtf it has to do with them tbh.

The fact we're British citizens. That's what.

Interestingly though, I can't vote in Aussie elections until I become an Australian citizen, if I choose.

Scottishness is not the qualification for voting in Scottish elections or referenda.

For elections, I agree, but for something as deep as constitutionally severing part of a country, when the whole argument is mainly based around pride of being Scottish, and self determination thereof, I'm not so sure it makes any sense at all

Happy Australia Day, by the way! Despite my pissing around on here, I'm actually working...

I dont mind ex-pats/non residents/citizens [ whatever we call you/them] voting if they pay tax here

I'm not sure you want to go down the route of making paying tax the qualification for voting though - that suggests that UK residents who don't pay tax shouldn't be voting and that non-UK resident non-UK citizens should be allowed to vote if they pay enough tax.

when the whole argument is mainly based around pride of being Scottish

1) That is not the whole argument or even the main part of it.

2) If there are (apparently hypothetical, so far) Scots who are butthurt at not being able to vote in Scottish elections and referenda - they should have stayed there if they wanted a voice. They weren't bitching about being able to vote in E&W&NI elections.

I find the ex pats being allowed to vote for 15 years somewhat strange.

Happy Australia Day, by the way! Despite my pissing around on here, I'm actually working...

And to you! I have the day off, but also a poorly wife, so not much happening here. May make the obligatory trip to the beach later though.

[b]when the whole argument is mainly based around pride of being Scottish and the self-determination thereof[/b]
1) That is not the whole argument or even the main part of it.

2) If there are (apparently hypothetical, so far) Scots who are butthurt at not being able to vote in Scottish elections and referenda - they should have stayed there if they wanted a voice. They weren't bitching about being able to vote in E&W&NI elections.

And it is the main part of the argument. To self-determine, presumably they feel some sort of pride as a 'people'? Otherwise what are they self-determining?

And unlike the disruption of moving to Oz (or Germany, or anywhere else, [i]foreign[/i]), moving to EWNI from S isn't crossing an international border, and you still get to cast your vote for MPs in Westminster wherever you are registered. This, I suspect, is why most people who move about within the UK don't bother with postal voting, they just vote from where they are. When you move abroad, that;s not the case, so setting up a postal vote makes more sense.

I find the ex pats being allowed to vote for 15 years somewhat strange.

Why? They are British citizens. One of the privileges of that is that they vote in British elections.

Why should people who don't live in a community get a say in how that community is run?

To self-determine, presumably they feel some sort of pride as a 'people'? Otherwise what are they self-determining?

2) The argument is that the economic, social and political policies which can and would be pursued by an independent Scotland would leave its inhabitants in a better place than staying part of the UK.

You're trying to make out as if Scottish republicanism has been forty years of facepaint, tartan and bellowing cod poetry, and that the arguments for independence are irrational, emotive and identity-based. Apart from a few dickheads, they're not - the debate is far more sophisticated than that (although you don't hear much about it in detail outside Scottish media, obviously). The SNP line has pretty much always been "we're so fantastically European, we'll join the Euro, we'll be the second Celtic Tiger, isn't it great?", which is exactly why Cameron is using this moment (Euro in meltdown, Irish economy down the tubes, EU not looking too happy) to push an issue which has pretty much been on the backburner.

Whether or not Scottish independence is a good thing is a question, but either way the debate is more sophisticated than "we should be independent because we're Scots and we're better than all you bastards".

This, I suspect, is why most people who move about within the UK don't bother with postal voting, they just vote from where they are.

BTW, postal voting is not the same as overseas elector voting. Before 2001, postal voting was something you had to apply for and give a good reason for. Now it's being allowed because people can't be arsed to show up to the polls, which [i]partially[/i] explains lower turnouts in the last twenty years.

Seems a bit silly to split up a small island into smaller bits what next Yorkshire, Suffolk ?

Also why is Europe so necassary as a union but the one thats been in place for 300 years so bad. Salmond is on a glory trip.

I'm an Australian resident living in Adelaide, but I am a British citizen, and have a postal vote in the UK general election to decide who gets to sit in Westminster on my behalf from Bolton West. My brother is a German resident living in Berlin, but again is a British citizen, and again has a postal vote in the UK general election.

Personally, I have far more of a problem with this - why should someone get to participate in the democratic processes of a country you don't contribute to.

It's worse than that ditch_jockey. A few years ago there was a report of an austrailian resident, who was also a member of the House of Lords, who flew to the UK on holiday to participate in one of the Lords debates. Only in the UK could such a thing be allowed...

Who was that?

I'm an Australian resident living in Adelaide, but I am a British citizen, and have a postal vote in the UK general election to decide who gets to sit in Westminster on my behalf from Bolton West. My brother is a German resident living in Berlin, but again is a British citizen, and again has a postal vote in the UK general election.

The people of the United Kingdom have democratically elected a government at Westminster who seem relatively content to allow the people of Scotland to have their referendum on Independence. To do otherwise might be seen as "oppression" which would only bolster the division campaign. It is surely better to have a sensible discussion about the future and then an "amicable" split if that is what one party agrees rather than refuse the discussion, force the partner to remain against its will (if that is the case) and potentially end up with blood on the streets in decades to come because the people believe they have been oppressed. Alternatively lets have the discussion and the vote, you may find that the people of Scotland are quite content to stay and by not refusing them the chance to express their opinion don't feel oppressed.

I've forgotten. It was many years ago and featured on the BBC news, so far Googling has yielded nothing.

The fact we're British citizens. That's what.

But you don’t live here, don’t pay tax here , voluntarily left and yet you keep a say in what happens here…it just seems odd that ex pats get a say when they don’t live here tbh
People born in Scotland but still living within the union don’t get a say ..I am not sure what the principle at work here is tbh but it is not being applied universally.

I'm not sure you want to go down the route of making paying tax the qualification for voting though

It is in relation to ex-pats not residents. If you live here it is pretty obvious why you get a vote and I doubt we need to debate this principle.

However I don’t see how someone who does not lives here and is {largely] unaffected by the decisions the govt makes gets a say in that govt.

Why? They are British citizens. One of the privileges of that is that they vote in British elections which have no effect on them at all as they live somewhere eels and don’t pay tax here

You may disagree but the point is a fairly obvious one as made here.

Personally, I have far more of a problem with this - why should someone get to participate in the democratic processes of a country you don't contribute to.

It is this you get as much say as me but you are obviously far less affected than I am by the outcome – it probably makes F all difference to your daily life what with you being on the other side of the world etc.

The SNP line has pretty much always been "we're so fantastically European, we'll join the Euro, we'll be the second Celtic Tiger, isn't it great?"

I find that hard to believe. The SNP existed before the common market and the EU, predates the Euro by several years and for most of its existence there was no concept of a "celtic tiger".

But that wouldn't stop them jumping on that bandwagon...

The BBC have just announced that Mel Gibson will NOT get to vote.

Personally, I have far more of a problem with this

Thankfully, I and I'm sure most other ex-pats don't give a fig what you have a problem with. And soon, if you're so hell-bent on leaving the union, you won't have reason to care anyway. Why should you worry about something that doesn't concern your country?

voluntarily left

Not really. It was move abroad or become a 'drain' on the welfare system joining the 20% or so of young people who are unemployed.

Why? They are British citizens. One of the privileges of that is that they vote in British elections which may have no effect on them for now as they live somewhere else at the moment and don’t pay tax here, but are quite likely to return at a later date when there are jobs

FTFIFY

TJ, are you Scottish or a Scottish resident? Just intrigued, no axe to grind

Just intrigued, no axe to grind

I can see this becoming a catch phrase on here

Scottish resident. what I believe is referred to as an "assimilated scot"

English by birth, British by nationality, Scotland is my home. Crossing the border going north feels like going home. You cannot change what is in your heart easily.

TJ - you live in Edinburgh don't you? That's hardly really Scotland - I mean it's named after an English king and not even one of the benign ones (Edward's town).

Not that I'm from Glasgow originally or anything.

At the end of the day who can and cannot vote becomes a practical exercise. The electoral register is easily available. To allow anyone else to claim Scottish ancestry in some form would be a nightmare. Just because you have been born in Scotland and choose to live elsewhere, does not give you the right to vote in Scottish elections or referendum.

If you want to vote in the referendum, then you need to be on the electoral register. This is regulated by UK rules and as such normally you need to register in the area where you live.

The whole idea of allowing people who live overseas to vote in UK elections has been taken too far. If you live abroad (i.e. you home is outside of the UK) then you should not be allowed to vote in any UK elections. But this is a whole new topic!

lol@igm

I find that hard to believe. The SNP existed before the common market and the EU, predates the Euro by several years and for most of its existence there was no concept of a "celtic tiger".

I suspect its been the line since Salmond's been in charge. Perhaps the party's motives would have been clearer if he rebranded - how about "New SNP".

Thankfully, I and I'm sure most other ex-pats don't give a fig what you have a problem with.

And soon, if you're so hell-bent on leaving the union, you won't have reason to care anyway. Why should you worry about something that doesn't concern your country?

Of course its currently quite possible that Scotland doesn't leave the union, but your ex pat issue won't have gone away - so I don't see why as an undecided Scottish voter I can't express an opinion on it!

I had an epiphany while cycling this morning. Alex Salmond is a good guy after all, a true good Samaritan. STW lore states that there are two groups of pariahs in the Uk - bankers and public sector workers. Given that Scotland employs a greater share of both, dear Mr Salmond is obviously creating a homeland for the true, needy and oppressed segments of our society. I take back all my cynicism. What a bloke. You can keep you Daves your Nicks and you Eds. Vote for Alex for an end to oppression. He can invest NSO supporting them both.

Zokes, he may even provide a home for the Aboriginal news makers today?

Igm, doesn't the extent or type of your Scottishness depend on whether you summer at Salcombe-on-the-Forth, sorry Elie, or elsewhere?

Zokes, he may even provide a home for the Aboriginal news makers today?

Heh - pity they didn't get to Abbott - the guy makes dubya look both moderate and intelligent.

mmm... that attitude really encourages the wider population of the UK to support "I'm all-right-jack" ex pats doesn't it? Voting reform will come, in one form or another - don't be surprised if you find the people of the UK disinclined to allow ex Pats to milk the rest of us for what they can whilst looking down their noses at us.

That was an attitude directed at D_J, hence why I quoted him.

Not really sure there's much looking down my nose at non-ex-pats. The only reason I'm out here (and by association, my wife too) is that there weren't (and still aren't, judging by the jobs.ac.uk emails I get) many jobs available. So I could have either wasted that long education paid for mainly by the British tax payer and 'taken' (in Ernie's words) someone else's job in Tesco's, or sat on the dole - both options pretty much leaving me with no chance to get back into my career, as it's so competitive that breaks generally mean end of the road.

Or, I could have been proactive, found a post that allows me to develop further, with a view to returning at the earliest opportunity, and continuing to contribute. Funnily enough, this was the path I chose.

What I don't get is why everyone looks on ex-pats with that attitude. Sure, for a few it's off for a nice life in the sun, but for a lot of young professionals, it's because they can't find a job in the UK. Or presumably, you'd prefer us to forego the sunshine and sit on the dole? Jealous much?

I have no problem with you being in Aus Zokes - however I do not think you should be allowed to vote. in the UK - certainly after say 2 years abroad

however I do not think you should be allowed to vote. in the UK - certainly after say 2 years abroad

Why? I'm a british citizen, and have a democratic right to vote in the country that I'm a citizen of.

TBH zokes whilst tebbit comends you for getting on your bike I dont actually care. It is your life and you can live it how you feel fit and do what you want.

I dont see why someone who does not live here or pay taxes here has the right to vote here.

EDIT: becaus eyou contribute nothing to the country currently and the impact of decisions has next to no impact on your life in Australia

You may disagree but you cannot really find the argument a surprising one or one that is difficult to grasp

I find that hard to believe. The SNP existed before the common market and the EU, predates the Euro by several years and for most of its existence there was no concept of a "celtic tiger".

I remember the SNP's party line in the late 80s/early 90s was "independence within Europe" so they've been pro-EU for quite a while.

Or presumably, you'd prefer us to forego the sunshine and sit on the dole? Jealous much?

You may disagree but you cannot really find the argument a surprising one or one that is difficult to grasp

You may disagree but you cannot really find the argument a surprising one or one that is difficult to grasp

No, I get the argument. But thankfully, the law seems to be with me. I don't imagine I'll stay in Oz for ever, and I presume I'll be back in the UK sooner or later. Therefore British policies do directly affect me.

One example:

Going to war in my country's name doesn't affect me any more than it does anyone who lives in the UK (apart from the armed forces), but I'm buggered if I don't get a futile way to say 'I didn't vote for this' as much as anyone else with half a conscience did.

As long as they leave Islay for me they can do what they want 🙂

In fact if they want away from us that much give em a big boat and ship em off , and the welsh too and come to think of it the dogs that hang around bike trails

Runs off to hide 😉

TJ - fair enough I thought that was so, just checking. That's all.

**sound of sharpening blade in background** 😉