[Closed] Scottish independence - hmm, a thought

ulu-Eleven - Member

and, I'll ask politley, a final time and leave it there TJ

Zulu-Eleven - Member

I believe in a peoples right to self determination

Nice weasel worded sideways dodge into not answering the question

C'mon British people, you have done this before...

How about re-enacting the partition of India and ****stan ? Those for, head up to the Highlands. Those against, stay down south of Perth.

Oh...

(mt - forming an alliance with the French)

Have we decided who's a jock yet? Are my kids Scottish 'cos their mums a thistle stamper, we live in England? I've done my part as a good Englishman and have bred with the dirty animals, if you lot had of all done the same we wouldn't need this debate just like Longshanks reckoned!

Actually I'm starting to like this partition idea. I can think of some football supporters in the west who might be keen too.

there would have to be some sort of passport control at the border.

BBSB - Neither ROI or UK are in the Schengen area. Both Austria and Lichtenstein are. It's the crossing in and out that's the issue.

Personally i want independence as I'd like to see a proper democracy in scotland(i.e no tories for ever more.)

😆

Very good.

Anyone care to insert a recent price related Elfquote here?

Why don't you then, Flashy?

Neither ROI or UK are in the Schengen area.

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member
> Neither ROI or UK are in the Schengen area.

So if UK is not a member and Scotland is part of the UK, therefore not a member, why should that change?

The thing that I find interesting about this thread, and the previous one, are the fascinating insights you get into the apparent psychology of "being English" that many of the posters display. it seems to be characterised by a corrosive negativity that delights in petty points scoring and the prospect of being able to revel in the failure of others.

Gaining independence would only be the start of an extended period of 'nation building' - always an activity that carries risks. If the population of Scotland votes for independence, it would need to be with the awareness that taking ownership of our own destiny in this way means accepting the responsibility to roll up our sleeves and get stuck in. At certain points in our history, we've done this magnificently, but historic achievement is no guarantee of repeating it in our current circumstances.

Someone asked if it was all about being better off financially - all I can say is that's not what motivates me. I fully expect that times will be harder if we become independent. What compels me is the desire for self-determination:
[i]"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."[/i]

It depends

Zulu-Eleven - Member
Blimey - even the New statesman agrees with me

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/malachy-tallack/2007/04/shetland-scotland-independence

He is almost as selective as you.

Hels,
I thought you meant the smuggling, that just goes to show my mind set.
The alliance with France may not have worked (some would say it did but not for the Scots of the time) but like many of the things that cause a seperatist/independance movement history is the driver, how many people look at those historical reasons and figure out was what happened for the best in the long run? Are we looking past our petty nationalism and to the future (this applies to many issues), or are we basing the future on the past.

You dont even believe that to be the case you are not that stupid or foregtfull...this is just pointless goading and macho BS to provokle a reaction as is Zulus latest post...quite sad grown men behave like this

And in English?

Zokes that is exactly what you said last time I challenged you 🙄 I am confused is this an attempt to convince me you really are forgetful or that you really are stupid?

Ah more playground stuff from grown men EXCELLENT

If they do get full independence - I presume we'll be getting our bail out money back from Edinburgh based RBS and HBOS (two of the world's biggest banks - Scotland's global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term*)?

That should account for 7,456,987% of GDP for the foreseeable...

* Quote attributed to a Mr A Salmond. Edinburgh

binners - Member
If they do get full independence - I presume we'll be getting our bail out money back from Edinburgh based RBS and HBOS

SBZ - do I qualify?

D-J

Doesn't the petty point scoring come with the territory?

But I sympathise with your point which stems behind my questions yesterday (before they started some deliberate baiting!). The desire for self-determination is a strong and noble one. In the Scottish case, there is the legal barrier which was temporarily lifted when Cameron tried to call Salmon's bluff. I understand why Scots may resent Cameron's intervention but when you step back here was an offer (albeit with some terms) that would allow Scots a simple and timely vote on the subject and would by pass legal obstacles. So as soon as Salmon starts to weasel about when caught temporarily off guard it becomes natural to be suspicious of his motives to the extent that they reflect the nobility of your position.

I'm bemused by the great and the good of STW wracking their collective brains over the minutiae of every aspect of independence.
Let's get to the big issue:
Will an independent Scotland be looking for a new Jacobite monarch?

thm - you can keep repeating that "analysis" as often as you like but it doesn't make it any more true. It doesn't work for TJ and it won't work for you.

Why on earth would they get the tax revenues back? Did none of that go to pay for free prescriptions and zero tuition fees north of the border then?

Or I suppose it is tax-related. We are, after all, talking about truly gargantuan amounts of British taxpayer cash being used to bail out private Scottish companies. If an independent Scotland had been left holding the baby for RBS and HBOS in 2007/8, where do we think Scotland would be now with regard to austerity measures? In comparison to the rest of the 'Arc of Prosperity'

If they do get full independence - I presume we'll be getting our bail out money back from Edinburgh based RBS and HBOS

Does this sort of peurile drivel really constitute someone's idea of a debate about Scottish independence?

So drudge. You can wait til 2014 and have a vote without legal consequence and then a period of negotiation (will AS be retired with a pension by then?) or a legally binding yes/no on the fundamental question now?

Or I suppose it is tax-related. We are, after all, talking about truly gargantuan amounts of British taxpayer cash being used to bail out private British companies.

FTFY - do you actually understand the basic premise of your argument is flawed, or are you just being lazy about trying to bait people?

Sorry spell check going into overdrive druidh. I guess it doesn't like the h. Sorry about the unintentional mis-spelling.

teamhurtmore - Member
Sorry spell check going into overdrive druidh. I guess it doesn't like the h. Sorry about the unintentional mis-spelling.

It was but didn't mean to case offence hence the apology not an edit of the original.

So excuse the infammatory words in my para (which don't help!), do you not see the underlying point?

Well I was under the impression that if Scotland had been independent then it would be a purely Scottish affair when 2 rather large Edinburgh based companies went tits up, and needed bailing out? Can you explain to me why this wouldn't have been the case?

last time I challenged you

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

As you said:

Ah more playground stuff from grown men EXCELLENT

Stupid is one thing I'm not. From your ability to type, and the speed at which you hurl insults at others, I'll respectfully suggest that this doesn't apply to you...

Binners - the RBS/HBOS issue's been explained at more than one point on the previous thread.

I've just realised that this discussion reminds me of the time I told my mum I was moving out into my own flat - she came up with all sorts of reasons why it wasn't a good idea, but at the end of the day what she was really saying was that she didn't want the last of her family to move away. Perhaps we need to be a bit more sympathetic to the emotional needs of our English neighbours as they face the prospect of "empty nest syndrome". We promise to write, phone and visit, and we'll let you attend to our dirty washing so you still have a sense of purpose. 😆

Cheers DJ. I'll have a look.

Anyway... If you go, you'll leave us with a permanent Tory government. And of course, for that, we'll never ever forgive you. Never left your mum with that I hope! 😉

Perhaps we need to be a bit more sympathetic to the emotional needs of our English neighbours as they face the prospect of "empty nest syndrome".

You might be suprised to see how little your parents really want you 🙂

[url] http://www.pressassociation.com/component/pafeeds/2012/01/10/54_of_scots_want_to_stay_in_uk [/url]

binners - Member

Well I was under the impression that if Scotland had been independent then it would be a purely Scottish affair when 2 rather large Edinburgh based companies went tits up, and needed bailing out? Can you explain to me why this wouldn't have been the case?
Posted 11 minutes ago # Report-Post

Scotland wasn't independent then so don't see the point in your question?
Or what would the BEF have done on the retreat to Dunkirk without the 51st Highland?
As equally a fatuous question.
There are so many unknown variables that would have effected the outcome it would have depended if Scotland had been part of the EURO ,who was owed what by whom, what assets were held where and by whom,,could have let the companies fail and refund only Scottish investors or savers ...it goes on

Perhaps we need to be a bit more sympathetic to the emotional needs of our English neighbours as they face the prospect of "empty nest syndrome". We promise to write, phone and visit, and we'll let you attend to our dirty washing so you still have a sense of purpose

Bless.......

.....what our Scottish neighbours seemingly fail to grasp (and it usually gets mentioned on [i]every[/i] Freedom for Scotland thread) is that above and beyond a bit of humour and micky taking "We" really don't give a flyer what you do or how/when/why you do it - just do it 😆

Hels-

Would anybody like to be sustainability manager?

Oh yes please - I like to get out 😉 can we meet weekly at the T Arms? Will my head hurt?

Will the Isle of Whithorn be able to claim independance from Dumfries & Galloway.

Teamhurtmore

SNP position ( as I understand it - correct me if I am wrong Druidh)

1) indicative / consultative referendum - if yes vote then
2) negotiation on the various issues raised such as bank, currency, defence and so on
3) once all the detail is known and the implications clear then another vote that would be binding on that detailed deal. This to take place over a significant period of time to allow proper informed debate

Camerons position

One vote that is binding to be taken soon. No detail will be available, implications will not be clear.

Which is a better way of making such an important decision? Is it better to make a decision when all the details are known and having had time to debate it or to make a decision when the implications are not clear?

So forgetting all that waffle, some Scots want independence cos they believe they will be individually wealthier, basically. That's what it comes down to, is not it really, let's face it.

For many people and I suspect he majority of nationalists its nothing to do with economics - its about the right to self determination. There are those who will be swayed by economic argument but the vast majority I believe are ideology driven and would want independence even if it meant impoverishment

Which is a better way of making such an important decision? Is it better to make a decision when all the details are known and having had time to debate it or to make a decision when the implications are not clear?

Jezza, jezza, Jezza.... you really are hopelessly naive

*adopts the mindset of a politician*

I don't give a flying **** how you do it, what the question is or when you do it - just as long as I win it

Applicable to both sides

Jacobite succession, welcome the potential new King of Scotland

[img] [/img]

Franz Duke of Bavaria (on the left :D)

Jacobite succession? Can't you just take our Greek bloke instead? His title says he should be up there. If you can't afford him, you can have him as part of a loan deal. A sort of Racist Carlos Tevez

There's been a Tory government in England Wales and the NI for the last 32 years.

No there hasn't.

His lass has a bit of a gut on her - is she from Newcastle by any chance?

TJ/thm

As far as I understand it, the SNP position is that there should only be one referendum/one question. The "indicative" referendum is no more than a way of getting round some of the restrictions of the current Scotland Act.

As regards timing, the SNP are damned either way. Up until a few months ago, they were accused of having little in the way of answers to some of the more fundamental issues. When they subsequently appointed a civil servant to start working on these answers, they were accused of jumping the gun to independence.

Of course both sides want to hold the referendum when they think it will best suit their desired outcome. However, I believe that we (the voting public) still don't have enough information on which to base a sensible decision. With a fair wind, and the co-operation of the civil service in London, the earliest I could see this all being available would be some time in 2013. Either way, it's before 2015, which is when the next UK elections should be held.

Traditional hair colour mind, she'll do as "First Lassie"

I liked that poll,they interviewed 2300 people on devolution, but less than 500 of them were from Scotland.

Bless.......

.....what our Scottish neighbours seemingly fail to grasp (and it usually gets mentioned on every Freedom for Scotland thread) is that above and beyond a bit of humour and micky taking "We" really don't give a flyer what you do or how/when/why you do it - just do it

El Presidente-for-life Cameron would appear to feel differently...