[Closed] Scottish independence - hmm, a thought

Haven't you Scots got bored watching Braveheart yet?

I liked that poll,they interviewed 2300 people on devolution, but less than 500 of them were from Scotland.

So about 300 more than if it had been a proportional cross-section of the UK population 🙂

In mitigation the poll wasn't specifically on devolution (I was bored and looked it up on the ipsos-mori website yesterday), but a generic how UK state of the kingdom survey. Only Q10 was on independence.

TJ ( I am being serious today)

I (think) I understand the technical position. But my question remains a much simpler and broader one. The issue of independence is not new. Certainly not to the SNP. It is also as D_J points out an issue of fundamental right/choice for self determination. For that reason, it is above the petty techical issues over the legality of the various voting possibities.

The fundamental question - independence or not - is relatively straightforward. Delaying merely give the politicians time to muddy the waters with their self interests. I agree with D-J and you on this ie, it's not simply an economic argument. That is why, and for that reason alone, I believe that the SNP are being spineless although I can understand their position based on my (apparently erroneous) belief that they were caught temporarily off guard.

Today we now have a debate over the extent to which a Scottish vote would be binding or not. The legal case versus a more moral/emotive case. Excuse me for being a cynic but this is simply a smokescreen poss for MM's benefit more than anyone else (poor guy he had his trousers and pants down and must be steaming).

Having said that, I agree that the SNP are caught in a damned if you do/damned if you don't position as Druidh describes. Hence I come back to my riginal point that in this case AS was caught napping.

FWIW I hope that the union remains as I think all parts will be stronger as a result. And of course the practicalities of independence would be extremely costly and of dubious benefit. But I respect your desire for a choice and so prickle when that opportunity is shirked for tactical reasons.

You might be suprised to see how little your parents really want you

well, they buggered off to Oman for the next 10 years, so I guess that tells me what I need to know 😆

Funny how two of the busiest threads on Singletrack since Cam the Bam's intervention have been on a subject that people claim not to care about - you say you won't care when we leave, but your posts tell a different tale 🙄

El Presidente-for-life Cameron would appear to feel differently...

Yes you'll probably right. Maybe not so for Osborne though.

[i]Cameron's attachment to the Union shows his romantic side. Osborne, on the other hand, is no romantic. Could he have spotted the electoral benefits for the Tories if Scotland leaves the UK? The Tories would be in power for a generation if Labour lost its substantial chunk of Scottish seats at Westminster.

Osborne probably believes he has embarked on a win win strategy. He either wins by being remembered as the man who kept the UK together. Or he wins by being remembered as the man who kept the Tories in power for a generation.[/i]

[url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2012/jan/10/georgeosborne-alexsalmond [/url]

ditch_jockey - Member
you say you won't care when we leave, but your posts tell a different tale

We [i]don't[/i] care, but the banter is amusing - keep it up chaps 😆

IanMunro - Member
The Tories would be in power for a generation if Labour lost its substantial chunk of Scottish seats at Westminster.

I respect your desire for a choice and so prickle when that opportunity is shirked for tactical reasons

of course we're all on shaky ground on this particular aspect of the debate, as we're all second guessing Alex Salmond's motives and responses. On that basis, I'm comfortable with the notion that Alex Salmond wants to win the independence referendum and, on that basis, wants to give the maximum time for the issues to be discussed and for people to make a decision based on information, not ignorance and fear. Neither David Cameron, George Osborne nor Michael 'toom tabard' Moore have come up with any compelling facts and figures to support their opposition to independence, just vague prophecies of doom.

For my own part, my support for independence is philosophical (or ideological if you prefer) rather than being based on the economic exigencies of this, or any other, point in history. More broadly, I happen to think that it might also provide the opportunity for a healthy English patriotism to flourish, rather than the version represented by groups like the EDL and UKIP. England has a lot in her heritage to be proud of, that could serve as an inspiration for the future; it's a shame that it risks being co-opted by destructive morons who belittle their country.

If Scotland does become independant, will that mean the end of the Union Jack?

don simon - Member
If Scotland does become independant, will that mean the end of the Union Jack?

For many people and I suspect he majority of nationalists its nothing to do with economics - its about the right to self determination. There are those who will be swayed by economic argument but the vast majority I believe are ideology driven and would want independence even if it meant impoverishment

Don't be daft.

You'd have to ask the navy.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag ]The Flag Institute, the vexillological organisation for the United Kingdom, stated that the term Union Flag is a "relatively recent idea". Jack was a word previously used to denote any flag[/url]

PMSL

I think i might demand the removal of the blue.

The real issue is will we start charging non Scot Nationals for using our lovely MTB trails.

What about £10 a go, and we use the money to build a scot only trail centre.

elphin,

you underestimate the memories of battles won and lost.

I've not read all this thread, or the other recent one, but has anyone mentioned the £182bn of Royal Bank of Scotland toxic debt held by the Treasury?

"The Scottish Neverendum" - looks like DC is on a bit of a roll here.

you underestimate the memories of battles won and lost.

Particularly if you only ever won the one. Think England and 1966 Fred 😀

but has anyone mentioned the £182bn of Royal Bank of Scotland toxic debt held by the Treasury?

I did, but I got shouted at 🙁

CaptJon - Member
I've not read all this thread, or the other recent one, but has anyone mentioned the £182bn of Royal Bank of Scotland toxic debt held by the Treasury?

Posted 6 minutes ago # Report-Post

Yes; along with the amount held by the rest of the English banks that needed bailing out. Only a page back,don't be lazy.

"The Scottish Neverendum" - looks like DC is on a bit of a roll here.

Hardly original though

Thats because Dave hasn't got an original thought in his head. He probably read it in an old book of Thatchers speeches

Binners, what happened in 1966, i was around then but nothing of importance happened as I recall.

Every time Cameron speaks about Scotland the SNP get a boost.

Every time Cameron speaks about Scotland the SNP get a boost.

And Labour loses a vote. The Tory vote remains the same.

thanks for the pointer duckman...

druidh - Member
As long as Scotland gets all the tax revenues paid to the exchequer over the years for Halifax, Bank of Scotland, Birmingham Midshires, RBS and Nat West, that would seem to be an equitable position.

That makes no sense. Tax has been paid to the UK exchequer, but the toxic debt still exists and will continue to do so if Scotland gets independence. What should be done with it?

TandemJeremy - Member
Every time Cameron speaks about Scotland the SNP get a boost.

So does Cameron (in part of England).

Ok so a small oil rich nation with no real army. Expect a visit from uncle Sam soon.

Expect a visit from uncle Sam soon

They were here for years - then they left again...

...plus, do you realise how many sleeper cells we have in the US and Canada 🙂

zippykona - Member
Ok so a small oil rich nation with no real army. Expect a visit from uncle Sam soon.

POSTED 47 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

No bother, he probably IS actually our Uncle Sam bearing in mind the stock the Americans came from 😀

no real army.

[img] ?w=450[/img]

zippykona - Member
Ok so a small oil rich nation with [b]WMDs[/b]. Expect a visit from uncle Sam soon.

What WMDs? Buckie? That's from Devon anyway, in't it?

Deep-fried Mars bars? Bagpipes? Tennents Super Lager?

Purple can FTW.

[img] ?zz=1[/img]

I'm a bit confused on all this, the radio news said that they were going to the Poles. What's it got to do with the Poles?

They need the Poles to come and sort out the complete and utter balls-up that is the Edinburgh Tram system...

What WMDs?

Recognise the hills in the background - probably not, unless you happen to live in Dunoon...

[img] [/img]

They need the Poles to come and sort out the complete and utter balls-up that is the Edinburgh Tram system...

Ah, those boats what belong to the UK.

What makes you think we'd let you have anything like that? Don't be daft.

The only possible way Scotland will ever gain independence will be under terms dictated by the UK, which are in the best interests of the UK. Don't go dreaming you'd all suddenly be rich with nuclear subs to protect your waters etc, because you won't. If it did ever happen, you'd be no better off than you are now, and ultimately worse off.

So quit yer silly whinging, and just accept that you're British. And that we rule you. 😀

Here's an interesting stat from Faisal Islam (C4 news) via Twitter:

RBS's peak balance sheet - £2.5tn, versus Scottish GDP of £100bn. In 07 RBS was 2500% of Scottish GDP. In Iceland crisis all banks 800% GDP

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it - RBS isn't a 'Scottish' bank; it's a privately owned bank, part of the UK banking system.

Just like BP wasn't a 'British' company, however many times the US wanted it to be so.

So quit yer silly whinging, and just accept that you're British. And that we rule you

There is no "we" - as you like to remind us [i]"you're just a poor boy, from a poor family"[/i], so whatever happens, posting up facetious twaddle on STW is about as much influence as you're going to have on all this. You might as well just settle back and get used to being shafted by the posh boys 😆

Diddums.

posting up facetious twaddle on STW is about as much influence as you're going to have on all this.

And exactly what 'influence' are you personally going to have? None.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks all you got? Bless.

And exactly what 'influence' are you personally going to have? None.

It might have escaped you attention, but, by virtue of the blessing of living in Scotland, I'll be getting a vote in the referendum.

I think you might also want to check what an [i]'ad hominem'[/i] is - there's no personal attack on you, I'm simply pointing out that you, as a resident of London, won't be getting a vote in the referendum, and will have to content yourself with living under the control of David Cameron and his chums, hence the figurative 'shafting'. I'm assuming that you don't consider being referred to as a [i]"poor boy"[/i] as an ad hominem, since you've reminded us all on many occasions of your background.

ditch_jockey - Member
Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it - RBS isn't a 'Scottish' bank; it's a privately owned bank, part of the UK banking system.

Just like BP wasn't a 'British' company, however many times the US wanted it to be so.

Thanks, I know. But it is relevant in this discussion, its HQ will have to be based in either scotland or the UK and there would be questions about who'd bail it out with a repeat of the crunch.

I think you might also want to check what an 'ad hominem' is - there's no personal attack on you

Erm, you made personal references in an attempt to belittle me. I suggest you go away and have a think about your own mistake there, sonny jim. 😉

I'll be getting a vote in the referendum.

And? You still won't be getting independence, if you ever do, under your terms. Ittul be under UK terms alone, and you know it.

IE, you'll get shafted by the 'posh boys' as much as anyone else.

The sooner you realise it's a daft pipedream, and just accept that you're British, not Scottish, the better off you'll be.

What passport do you have? What language are we currently conversing in?

Back of the net....

At best I think you're in a pot/kettle situation there elf, since you've been taking a deliberately belittling tone in most of your contributions to this debate. The least you could do is take it on the chin if you get some back, rather than complaining about it.

However, you stick your shirt over your head and shout 'goal' if it makes you happy 🙂

Interesting points on CH4 news just now, just how much of the national debt would Scotland take on and also how much of oil reserves would come under Scottish control.

Both unclear currently.