The smart choice is indeed to stay at home with mummy and daddy...
No no no, the smart choice is to stay with your good friend enjoying one of the happiest environments in the world, the grass cannot get any greener. 😀
I know these last 93 pages have been folk arguing about the effect an Ind Scotland would have on the Scots, but I wonder what it would mean exactly for England?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
is there anything we'd actually miss?
I don't know, why not start a thread and ask about it?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
a round of the DH World Cup & EWS ?
, is there anything we'd actually miss?
a lot of electricity and water lol
No need to start another thread this topic seems to pollute almost every other thread on here
[quote=Rockape63 ]I know these last 93 pages have been folk arguing about the effect an Ind Scotland would have on the Scots, but I wonder what it would mean exactly for England?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
https://twitter.com/_PaulMonaghan/status/840280454238523396
BBC R4 today highlighting that US$ earned on sale of [b]Scotland's oil is the crucial factor sustaining the entire UK balance of trade[/b].
8)
kimbers - Membera round of the DH World Cup & EWS ?
They'd have to come up with a new name for the British Downhill Series. Something like "Welsh Downhill Series" maybe
[quote=Northwind ]kimbers - Member
a round of the DH World Cup & EWS ?
They'd have to come up with a new name for the British Downhill Series. Something like "Welsh Downhill Series" maybe
The Queen Elizabeth Lord Nelson Winston Churchill Battle Of Britain Downhill Series
Bob - you missed out 1966 😉
And "truly", everything is "truly" these days.
aracer - Member
...So what you're telling me is that none of the ex colonies which successfully made a go of independence had a deficit like Scotland?
Ah, the deficit. What deficit? The one Westminster deems it to have, or the one it is not allowed to have.
That's been discussed ad nauseam, and no doubt we will leave taking our % proportion of the UK's national debt.
Probably more to the point, how is the UK going to survive with the size of deficit it has? Especially once the hallowed banking sector moves to the EU.
imnotverygood - Member
How did you vote on Brexit epicyclo? Sounds pretty much how a Leave would argue. What you are arguing for is the right to leave & ignore making out a credible economic case for it...
I voted Remain, albeit with some reservations regarding Greece, and lately the threats by Juncker to make the UK suffer to deter any other countries leaving. The biggest advantage of the EU to me is the lack of a debilitating European war for the last 70 years, some sort of record. Peace is well worth having at twice the price.
I don't think Brexit is necessarily a bad thing for England in the long run, but oh what a bunch of numpties running it.
It's not smart to start negotiations by offending the other side unless you hold all the cards, and the UK doesn't hold many. The fundamental problem with the UK is its born-to-rule class, some are very talented, but the others would never get near the levers of power in any other country.
[quote=epicyclo ]Ah, the deficit. What deficit? The one Westminster deems it to have, or the one it is not allowed to have.
Nope, the one Holyrood deems it to have.
Probably more to the point, how is the UK going to survive with the size of deficit it has? Especially once the hallowed banking sector moves to the EU.
Slightly better than Scotland with the size of its deficit.
I presume from your reaction this is an issue you're going to ignore - yet you're happy enough to bang on about how Scotland will do fine economically after independence because all the colonies which have become independent have done, despite this very obvious difference you've helped identify.
New downhill series
"The Truly 1966 Queen Elizabeth Lord Nelson Winston Churchill Battle Of Britain Downhill Bake- Off Series"
^ will it be presented by a national treasure?
Aracer, you got that list of failed countries similar in size and make up to Scotland yet?
How about you imnotverygood?
I'm still waiting for the evidence of similarity of Scotland to those countries you'd like to be like.
[I]I know these last 93 pages have been folk arguing about the effect an Ind Scotland would have on the Scots, but I wonder what it would mean exactly for England?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
[/I]
There must be something (and doesn't have to be a physical item) key and Mrs May knows what it is, which is why she's saying Scotland can be independent BUT not until after it's needed.
Where's Jamba and THM when you need them, they'll know the political and logical reason(s).
& as we keep saying. Aside from population size what is do you think is 'similar' about the countries you'd like to compare Scotland to. What is it about a country of 5 million that makes it so very much different from a country with 60 million?
The point is you seem to feel that Scotland is failing as part of the UK, but your only response to the question of why it will succeed as an independent country is to say 'look at Denmark'. Well, look at Germany. What does that prove in a UK context?
imnotverygood - Member
What does that prove in a UK context?
we'll it's a mirror, it's a smaller nation and a larger nation getting on peacefully. canny say it looks much like armageddon.
@epic yes its fair to say economic models are equally worthless imo whether they are optimistic or pessimistic. As a model example you can look at the HMRC/ Remain paper with all the equations - must be valuable look at all those formulas !
@b r May is quite rightly prioritising the EU negotiations. She also knows the chance of a Yes is lower post Brexit as the UK's deal will be clear and its "good" less incentive for Scotland to leave and if its "bad" then its bad for Scotland in the EU as the UK is its largest trading partner. May is not opining on wjether Scotland can be independent but the timing of a second "once in a lifetime" Indy Ref
I mute NS as well as AS now but once again I thought Sugdale nailed it today when she said NS just wakes uo every day thinking of Indy and not making Scottish schools better or helping the poor. There is only one agenda
[I]@b r May is quite rightly prioritising the EU negotiations. She also knows the chance of a Yes is lower post Brexit as the UK's deal will be clear and its "good" less incentive for Scotland to leave and if its "bad" then its bad for Scotland in the EU as the UK is its largest trading partner. May is not opining on wjether Scotland can be independent but the timing of a second "once in a lifetime" Indy Ref[/I]
Yes, but IMO it isn't about whether Indy is Yes/No but something of while Scotland is important for the Brexit negotiation, is it as simple as we're another 5m population plus natural resources or more to do with politics?
NS just wakes uo every day thinking of Indy and not making Scottish schools better or helping the poor.
Haha
Unlike May coz she thinks about Brexit and Grammar schools, neither of which help the poor, infact quite the opposite
and Grammar schools, neither of which help the poor, infact quite the opposite
Funny, I thought Grammar Schools did help the poor clever kids, who get an education that pushes them to achieve, rather like Private Schools for people who can afford them.
JAMBALAYASugdale nailed it today when she said NS just wakes uo every day thinking of Indy and not making Scottish schools better or helping the poor
If I'm not mistaken, as part the recent council tax increase for band E upwards, the SNP proposal was to ring-fence that extra money for the exclusive use of schools.
The tories, labour etc forced them to abandon that but the SNP have agreed to meet the equivalent funding from elsewhere.
But aye, all the SNP do is indy driven...
Yes, but IMO it isn't about whether Indy is Yes/No but something of while Scotland is important for the Brexit negotiation, is it as simple as we're another 5m population plus natural resources or more to do with politics?
Because she believes that the whole of the UK benefits from a focus on the Brexit negotiations to get a good deal?
Because running the two arguments in parallel might not give both the proper attention?
Because the prospect of Scottish independence debate during the A50 period may undermine the Brexit negotiations?
If I'm not mistaken, as part the recent council tax increase for band E upwards, the SNP proposal was to ring-fence that extra money for the exclusive use of schools.
The SNP proposal was that council tax was unfair, regressive and not fit for purpose. It was frozen until they could replace it with something more appropriate.
Actually THM has been really quiet; he isn't on the naughty step is he?
duckman - MemberActually THM has been really quiet; he isn't on the naughty step is he?
He's halfway through course #137 of a dinner with some [i]extremely[/i] interesting people.
😛
sbob - Member
He's halfway through course #137 of a dinner with some extremely interesting people.
Guy Martin, Valentino Rossi AND Terrahawk?
Funny, I thought Grammar Schools did help the poor clever kids, who get an education that pushes them to achieve,
That's the theory, in reality
you and May both wrong on that one, infact they do the exact opposite.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37364697
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/mar/09/grammar-schools-new-figures-reveal-favouritism
Intervention at 11 years old is too late to improve the outcomes of disadvantaged children.
Funnily enough the Tory's have spent the last 10 years systematically dismantling a programme that has been shown to improve outcomes for the poorest.
The SNP proposal was that council tax was unfair, regressive and not fit for purpose. It was frozen until they could replace it with something more appropriate
Wrong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37837010
The council tax freeze is to end in 2017,
He pointed out that the plans would raise £100m to be spent on education, and said the SNP would not let party politics get in the way of this.
Why does may no0t want a referendum now?
Multiple resons but IMO the main ones are
She loses bargaining power / positions ie fishing rights - very imprtant to spain will be one of her bargaining chops. If there is a scottish independence vote in the offing she lose that. Also that some of the London financial institutions would move to Edinburgh losing her more bargaining power as she would have a muchg weaker case for prtotecting them
Financial loss - she knows like every other sensible person that Scotland has supported the rest of the UK financially for 30 years and while this has not been true the last couple of years it will be again in the future.
Pride
Deep resentment of being rejected by scotland
The objection was not to the funding of schools, but to central government making tax & spend decisions which are the preserve of local authorities. It was perceived to be undermining the democratic accountability of local government. I'm sure a clever mind could have got round that but they're in short supply in Holyrood.If I'm not mistaken, as part the recent council tax increase for band E upwards, the SNP proposal was to ring-fence that extra money for the exclusive use of schools.The tories, labour etc forced them to abandon that but the SNP have agreed to meet the equivalent funding from elsewhere.
Financial loss - she knows like every other sensible person that Scotland has supported the rest of the UK financially for 30 years and while this has not been true the last couple of years it will be again in the future.
It's been a 300 year union, why so selective with the timeline for who contributed?
Why does may no0t want a referendum now?
Might be busy with Brexit?
The whole indyref 2 thing stinks of the "auld alliance", May needs a new Earl of Surrey to manage the rerun of Flodden whilst she engages the Eurocrats
I do love Davidsons line that the scottish government do not have a mandate for calling a referendum. It both goes against her earlier statements ( I think she was slapped into line by London) and simply is not coherent
Elected on a manifesto with a clear commitment to hold one getting almost 50% of the vote - significantly higher than the tories had for the EU referendum
56 of 59 scots MPS
Majority in parliament for it
What more of a mandate do you need?
Of course the timing is opportunistic.
I don't think the SNP have ever hidden what their goals are, this strengthens sturgeons hand
It was blindingly obvious that after using EU membership as an argument for No, when the vote to Leave was made that another referendum was on the cards,
again this was not a secret, the SNP were pretty clear about all this.
It was also part of [b]PROJECT FEAR[/b]
I do love Davidsons line that the scottish government do not have a mandate for calling a referendum. It both goes against her earlier statements ( I think she was slapped into line by London) and simply is not coherent
I really don't think "London" tells Ruth what to do. They have no control over her nor a need to control her, her power base is in Scotland, she isn't looking at a Westminster job and she is very good at getting people to like her yet she isn't a threat to future conservative leaders because she is not in Westminster. She is now the public "safe pair of hands" for the conservatives and the effective opposition in the Scottish Parliament
Of course the timing is opportunistic.
May could have called the SNPs bluff and granted a snap indyref2 prior to Article 50 being triggered. At least then it would have been one battle at a time and the SNP could make good on all their promises of iS being able to stay in the EU
big_n_daft - Member
...I really don't think "London" tells Ruth what to do. They have no control over her nor a need to control her, her power base is in Scotland, she isn't looking at a Westminster job and she is very good at getting people to like her yet she isn't a threat to future conservative leaders because she is not in Westminster. She is now the public "safe pair of hands" for the conservatives and the effective opposition in the Scottish Parliament
I'll be disappointed if her recent statements are not as a result of her being pulled into line. I thought the current pusillanimous mode was because she was under orders.
However for all that she is lauded as highly popular by the BritNat media, the Tories had a bigger % of the vote in Margaret Thatcher's time. That's not really a resounding success.
[I]I don't think the SNP have ever hidden what their goals are,[/I]
Was it their party name that gave the game away, or that it was in the manifesto that they were elected on - or something that I've missed...
[quote=tjagain ]Also that some of the London financial institutions would move to Edinburgh
Very few if any. Far more likely for them to move to a country with an established central bank and regulatory system which is a member of the EU if they're going to move anywhere.
Financial loss - she knows like every other sensible person that Scotland has supported the rest of the UK financially for 30 years and while this has not been true the last couple of years it will be again in the future.
Bought your oil futures yet?
Just out of interest and because we apparently don't attract migrants; will any of these EU citizens be able to vote if we have left? ( even though they are all in Barnsley)
Of course Davidson is under orders / control from London. Its either that or she has lost her marbles as her position on mandates and democratic accountability have changed so dramatically and she has gone from a logically coherent ( if misguided IMO ) position to one that everyone who understands scottish politics including her knows is complete nonsense.
Davidson is smart and a good political operator. To be forced into spouting nonsense must hurt her.
On another point - both her and Sturgeon have had their room to manoeuvre and options reduced by the EU referendum and both of them to some extent must be holding their heads in their hands cursing events outside their control
I suspect that the tories in Scotand will pay a heavy political price for this in future scottish elections. Local government elections in may will be interesting. Currently the SNP vote is polling at around 50% tories 24% labour 14% Green 12%
MInd you it will be hard to transfer the local election results directly as it uses a different system to holyrood and despite what English commentators say the scot electorate have become very sophisticated in understanding the nuance of the different systems and vote tactically accordingly
What more of a mandate do you need?
I think officially it'll have a mandate when it's been rubber stamped by unionists, until then, just reasons....
Makes interesting reading
