Personally I'm not for a quick ref(but will take the chance if it comes), so I'll leave that to others.tpbiker - Member
Can someone who is for a quick referendum tell me why waiting isnt the better option.
Can someone who is for a quick referendum tell me why waiting isnt the better option. Its a win win for us.
Brexit is going to cause chaos. Not for everyone, some people will only feel the effects indirectly. For others it will be a disaster. Families will be torn apart with deportations. People whose jobs rely on close ties with Europe will be out of work.
With a quick referendum solutions can be found even if the UK has left the EU. As mentioned above there's talk of holding pens but I'm sure there are other ways temporary solutions can be found.
If the other EU members know that we are on our way out of the UK then there's more chance of them making exceptions than if there's a chance we might leave several years in the future.
[quote=BruceWee ]Families will be torn apart with deportations. People whose jobs rely on close ties with Europe will be out of work.
With a quick referendum solutions can be found even if the UK has left the EU. As mentioned above there's talk of holding pens but I'm sure there are other ways temporary solutions can be found.For example, a post Indyref Scottish Government could immediately declare that EU citizens were welcome without fear of deportation, even if that was in advance of any other negotiations or settlements.
Davidsons issue is that she cannot stray too far from westminster policy even when she knows its damaging to Scotland. I suspect she would do well as the tory leader in iScotland a she would be free of london telling her what she can and can't say
“You don’t get a referendum for free, you have to earn it. So if the Greens and the SNP – and the SSP or any of the other parties who’ve declared an interest in independence – get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum, and that’s what democracy’s all about… it’s perfectly simple”
Point of order however - to which parliament was she referring?
Some people here seem to forget that the Scottish Parliament and MSP's aren't responsible for the Issue of independence - Westminster and its elected MP's are
Holyrood
Personally I'm not for a quick ref(but will take the chance if it comes), so I'll leave that to others.
do you think you have more chance of winning it now or after brexit?
Of course it all depends on the outcome of us leaving the eu, but for what its worth i'd vote no just now as i did first time round, but be far more open to a yes if the uk economy goes down the pan.
I'm actually not massively against independence any more. what i'm against is sturgeon putting her personal agenda above all else.
[quote=ninfan ]
“You don’t get a referendum for free, you have to earn it. So if the Greens and the SNP – and the SSP or any of the other parties who’ve declared an interest in independence – get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum, and that’s what democracy’s all about… it’s perfectly simple”
Point of order however - to which parliament was she referring?I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that she's not expecting to see a pro-Independence majority in Westminster given that Scotland only elects 59 MPs. Mind you, there's been a few requests for the SNP to stand in England 🙂
kennyp - MemberAs you admit yourself, the electorate is not in favour of another referendum.
Was the electorate in favour of the last referendum? It came about because 36% of 66% of people voted for a party that promised it, but what proportion actually wanted it?
I have to say the hypocrisy about mandates really makes me laugh. Sturgeon has far more of a mandate than May has. Majority in holyrood, almost all of the MPs
Another thing to bear in mind is that any deal will have to be agreed by October 2018. That is the latest the main points of any deal can be agreed while still giving time for all governments to ratify the deal.
So having a referendum just before or just after the March deadline would allow six months for the indy and unionist sides to make their cases.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/ian-dunt
An interesting read but I'm still not convinced that Nicola Sturgeon is holding all the aces. I think this "[i]Westminster are over-riding the democratic rights of the Scots[/i]" line is being over-played.
Does it really matter? Legal or not the Scott's could hold a 2nd referendum, and if it's to leave the UK, that is a big deal. Will of the people and all that.
It would really damage upper class England's strategy.
Tend to agree scotroutes - and the EFTA thing was a mistake as well.
Sturgeons is playing her hand well but she is hemmed in by timing and various pressures in different directions. I am not sure she really had any choice over making the call tho
I think this "Westminster are over-riding the democratic rights of the Scots" line is being over-played.
Well May was very clear to make sure she did not say no you cannot so I am not that sure
It makes it hard for the tories ...sorry the English....erm I mean the UK.... to refuse the "will of the scottish people"
Some interesting thoughts on looking beyond the GERS figures.
http://allofusfirst.org/tasks/render/file/?fileID=87DEEC95-C459-02D4-0248DDE75B7ADDB9
ninfan - Member
“You don’t get a referendum for free, you have to earn it. So if the Greens and the SNP – and the SSP or any of the other parties who’ve declared an interest in independence – get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum, and that’s what democracy’s all about… it’s perfectly simple”
Point of order however - to which parliament was she referring?Some people here seem to forget that the Scottish Parliament and MSP's aren't responsible for the Issue of independence - Westminster and its elected MP's are
Ruth "flippity floppy" Davidson clearly used to think the moral right lay with the scottish parliament, until london told her to change her mind...(There's nover been any SSP MPs only MSPs, so she's referring to holyrood.)
Brexit is going to cause chaos. Not for everyone, some people will only feel the effects indirectly. For others it will be a disaster. Families will be torn apart with deportations.
This is just insane thinking and never going to happen. The only people who will be deported are those who would have before Brexit.
tpbiker - Member
Personally I'm not for a quick ref(but will take the chance if it comes), so I'll leave that to others.
do you think you have more chance of winning it now or after brexit?
I think it's a certainty to happen in 10/15 years with a 60% majority(My preferred scenario.). at the moment, it's anyones guess, a massive gamble 50/50.
This is just insane thinking and never going to happen. The only people who will be deported are those who would have before Brexit.
Because...?
I think it's a certainty to happen in 10/15 years with a 60% majority(My preferred scenario.). at the moment, it's anyones guess. 50/50.
I might go with a longer timeframe than that but not by much really.
I just can't see anything that's going to pull England and Scotland together. A period of economic prosperity [i]might[/i] hold things together for a while, but eventually discontent over something or other will lead to a break.
I agree problem is england is more tory than scotland and that is not changing anytime soon so the pressure remains whatever happens re Brexit.
Its not just that - we are moving in different directions and England is holding Scotland back from going where it wants to
Because the UK voted out of the EU, it did not vote to deport foreign citizens currently legally living here.
However once we leave the EU they will all need passports and visas to live or right to remain here . Costs a lot and at current rates of managing applications it will take over a hundred years to process all the visas
Of course May could say " all EU citizens will have the right to remain and continue to get healthcare"
But she won't because she knows the 3 million are one of the few bargaining chips she has
"I just can't see anything that's going to pull England and Scotland together."
That's my take. Referendums are like Pringles, once you start you can't stop. All the Nationalists have to do is win one. The together people can win 999, and it still doesn't settle it. All the nats have to do is win the thousandth.
My question is, once it happens what happens when the inevitable impasse over value of assets happens? Scotland can't really refuse to leave, so is it down to courts or does Scotland just take the loss? A war?
Splitting the UK and Scotland is going to make Brexit look very, very simple.
[quote=tjagain ]But she won't because she knows the 3 million are one of the few bargaining chips she has
Not now maybe. But if it's a bargaining chip then presumably it's going to be played at some point and the end result will be the same.
out of breath - on the assets its simple. give us our fair share or we don't take any of the debt - the two numbers are of similar size
The debt would legally be the rUKs - this was all gone into last time. The rightwingers on here would call that a debt default but it isn't.
[quote=outofbreath ]All the nats have to do is win the thousandth.
Oh god, make it stop!
[quote=tjagain ]The rightwingers on here would call that a debt default but it isn't.
I wouldn't call it that. But the important issue isn't what we call it, it's what the markets think of it. I'll admit I'm still not sure exactly how that will go down, but you do have to remember that you'll be needing to borrow money without having a central bank.
I just can't see anything that's going to pull England and Scotland together. A period of economic prosperity might hold things together for a while, but eventually discontent over something or other will lead to a break.
What we all need is a nice patriotic war.
I believe in the fundamental right to self determination. Scotlands decision on their future should be respected, just as the Brexit vote should be.
I also believe that should scotland dissolve the union, it's dissolved and there should be referendums throughout and that the english, welsh and irish should get a choice about whether to form a new union (which it would be) or bin it altogether, shake hands and walk away.
Aracer - we will have a central bank - either the bank of england or we will have 9% of the value of the bank of england and its reserves to set one up.
~The markets I don't think would bother too much - the debt would legally be rUKs as was said last time. I think the markets would be much more interested in the situation going forward IE have the scottish government made a good case on the economy
"England is holding Scotland back from going where it wants to"
Scotland wants to follow in Greece's footsteps, and yes, England is preventing that.
That's why the EU is so important. Someone will need to bale Scotland out and it would be much better if it were the EU.
Getting the EU to agree to let Scotland into the Eurozone would remove most objections.
Wot aracer said re default.
Doesn't matter two shits what left or right commentators call it. It's the perception of risk those doing the lending that counts.
"Oh god, make it stop!"
It's true.
ECB will see us right just like they did Greece 😉
What we all need is a nice patriotic war.
Let's just hope no major world player puts an unpredictable egomaniac moron in charge.
"ECB will see us right just like they did Greece"
Well, there will be a punishment beating dished out, but basically they won't let you all starve, and it won't be the UK's problem.
"England is holding Scotland back from going where it wants to"
Remind me of the Indy referendum result?
outofbreath - Member
...Splitting the UK and Scotland is going to make Brexit look very, very simple.
The UK is very experienced at the separation of former colonies, possessions, dominions, and parts of itself. Eg, Ireland.
A bit of common sense and it will work, and need not take long.
aracer - Member
outofbreath » All the nats have to do is win the thousandth.
Oh god, make it stop!
As the proclaimed resident ultraScotNat let me assure you it will stop.
All you need to do is see sense and agree to rid yourself of the sweaty sock subsidy junkies and their useless oil.
Oh, and stop caring so much about our economic future, we'll work that bit out ourselves. 🙂
As the proclaimed resident ultraScotNat
😆
[quote=imnotverygood ]"England is holding Scotland back from going where it wants to"
Remind me of the Indy referendum result?
they voted to stay in the EU but England disagreed
You are welcome
dp
