MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
See also "Anyone but Liverpool", "Anyone but Man Utd" etc etc etc.
so the latest yougov not looking so hot for tories
thats 60% pro-indy , and holyrood elections 6mths away
https://twitter.com/80_mcswan/status/1320819105977536512
constitutional showdown incoming
Its okay though, BoJo has put Gove in charge of keeping the Union together.
I've always been pro union but they really are making it hard to maintain this position! I've been able to justify my stance (despite current Tory gov) as thinking independence is a long term solution to a short term problem. But Tory gov is now feeling less a less like a short term problem and a new English centric way of life.
constitutional showdown incoming
It's irrelevant. If Boris won't back down over such an issue as school meals why do you think for a second he'll back down over a second Indy vote?
But yeah, if there was a vote tomorrow yes would win. They'd get my vote as well.
If Boris won’t back down over such an issue as school meals why do you think for a second he’ll back down over a second Indy vote?
It's perhaps not the best of comparisons but you're right Boris is not a democrat and I don't think he will agree to a referendum when he might well lose it. It is a problem for the SNP and the wider Yes movement what comes after yet another mandate is rejected, and Holyrood powers are reduced by the internal market bill?
Interesting times ahead.
I had always assumed that Sturgeon feels she needs to win an election fought on a "lets have a referendum" basis before she can go rogue and set about holding one anyway, thereby triggering a constitutional crisis.
I don't think the Internal Markets Bill will affect the constitutional issues surrounding a second referendum?
Boris is not a democrat and I don’t think he will agree to a referendum when he might well lose it. It is a problem for the SNP and the wider Yes movement what comes after yet another mandate is rejected, and Holyrood powers are reduced by the internal market bill?
I think both sides know this, however I am not sure that things are going to improve enough for Boris to ever feel confident about it. Cameron's Government seems like the good old days and all that would have taken was a 6% swing.
I don’t think the Internal Markets Bill will affect the constitutional issues surrounding a second referendum?
No not directly but they will leave Holyrood less powerful than it currently is and will allow the UK government to legislate in devolved areas.
The independent court case determining whether or not a Section 30 order is even required hasn't concluded yet.
And the D'Hondt system will ensure that type of SNP lead is watered down by the time Holyrood seats are apportioned.
But Tory gov is now feeling less a less like a short term problem and a new English centric way of life.
Corrected to
But Tory gov is now feeling less a less like a short term problem and a London centric way of life.
Don't you dare suggest that BoJo and his scum are doing any more for northern England than they are for Scotland. 😁
I can’t see that happening any time soon and I would like my daughter to grow up with the same opportunities I had.
Well Brexit has already ****ed that big time.
That was my point. I'd rather it wasn't the case but that ship has sailed. This isn't the country it was 6 years ago.
Corrected to
But Tory gov is now feeling less a less like a short term problem and a London centric way of life.
Don’t you dare suggest that BoJo and his scum are doing any more for northern England than they are for Scotland.
Really? Because the former have consistently voted against the shitstorm we find ourselves in whilst the latter voted for it. London is by and large not to blame in this but let's not allow facts to get in the way of some ignorant nonsense. London =/= Westminster
Devolution has been a disaster according to inept PM
De Peffle has put his foot in it (again). Sturgeon must be delighted.
Just reading the comments on the bottom of the Torygraph story of Johnson's comments and the vitriol is amazing. I know the English/Scottish relationship can get pretty salty at times, but the anger/hatred/resentment at the Scots and SNP is astonishing. Is it real, or is it keyboard warriors?
What's funny is that social media is full of little englanders & unionists agreeing with him and stoking even more pro indy sentiment
Just reading the comments on the bottom of the Torygraph story of Johnson’s comments and the vitriol is amazing. I know the English/Scottish relationship can get pretty salty at times, but the anger/hatred/resentment at the Scots and SNP is astonishing. Is it real, or is it keyboard warriors?
Posted 7 minutes ago
Not just the English.
Go on any BBC news article that mentions the SNP and has comments enabled. The level of vitriol from a lot of Scots is far worse than anything from south of the border
I saw this reported this morning.
If you are pro-indy then Johnson is the gift that keeps on giving.
It's like he's pathologically incapable of seeing the issue from anything but his own perspective. His whole "uppity Scots" approach is doing more for the independence cause than anything else.
His whole “uppity Scots” approach is doing more for the independence cause than anything else.
Ace, isn't it? I REALLY hope he doesn't get ditched after January...Oh wait; Gove is next in line? Cancel that sentiment.
BoardinBob
Full MemberGo on any BBC news article that mentions the SNP and has comments enabled. The level of vitriol from a lot of Scots is far worse than anything from south of the border
Though, mostly because we're a nation of 5.5 million people and it only takes about 30 people to completely fill a BBC news article's comments with hatred and bodily fluids.
Ace, isn’t it? I REALLY hope he doesn’t get ditched after January…Oh wait; Gove is next in line? Cancel that sentiment.
Remind me, is Gove a Scot?
His whole “uppity Scots” approach
Is he one of the uppity ones?
The man is thicker than a whale omelette.
big_n_daft
Free MemberRemind me, is Gove a Scot?
No. 😆 You can keep him.
No
Civic nationalism for him then
big_n_daft
Free Member
NoCivic nationalism for him then
Nah, exile will do him fine.
big_n_daft
Free MemberRemind me, is Gove a Scot?
He's no true scotsman 😉
tbh whether or not he's a scot isn't really my objection. It's more his brexit stance. I'm more a european federalist than a scot nationalist. Gove's clearly against that, so he can do one and he can ram his blue passport. 😆
I’m not sure why the uproar. From Boris’s point of view, it probably is a disaster. I would have been surprised if he was a fan of devolution. Is this really so shocking?
Gove may be of scots descent but he is not one of "the people of scotland" ie those who make the country their home. So he can **** right homeward to think again
imnotverygood
Full Member
I’m not sure why the uproar. From Boris’s point of view, it probably is a disaster. I would have been surprised if he was a fan of devolution. Is this really so shocking?
I think it's more collective amusement that any kinda shock.
He’s no true scotsman
Even more civic!
big_n_daft
Even more civic!
Last time I looked Surrey wasn't in Scotland.
Gove may be of scots descent but he is not one of “the people of scotland” ie those who make the country their home. So he can **** right homeward to think again
Factually incorrect, Scots descent is mum, dad , grandparents. He was born and lived in Scotland at least to he graduated university. He is a Scot.
The rejection of him and the denial of his status by nationlists, is very "civic"
Last time I looked Surrey wasn’t in Scotland.
Surprisingly the English are very welcoming, it might be why he chose to stay here after 20+ years in Aberdeen. I imagine if he moved back his reception would be very "civic"
big_n_daft thinks he's got a catch here! 😆
I'm amused that TJ thinks he is more Scottish than Gove
Probably can add Blair into that as well
The rejection of him and the denial of his status by nationlists, is very “civic”
Does he live and pay taxes in scotland? If not he is not one of the "people of scotland"
I have no scots blood in me but as I live here and pay taxes I am one of the "people of scotland"
the key thing is "have you made scotland your home?" He has not
You seem to fail to understand the differnce between " the scots people" the ethnic group And " the people of scotland" those who have made the country their home. Major fail. Its not blood and soil" nationalism
I do not have have never claimed to be ethnically scots.
"Its not where i come from as a person - Its where we are going as a nation"
big_n_daft
Free Member
I’m amused that TJ thinks he is more Scottish than GoveProbably can add Blair into that as well
If blair or gove want their opinions to be taken seriously, they can move here and join in the discussion if they like.
Gordon broon, for example, lives here, so is entitled to his opinion, even if I disagree with that.
Mebbes aye, but Gove is still Scottish
nationalism can bolt anyhow, I'm european, and even pre brexit, I seen no need for holyrood>westminster>brussels.
holyrood>brussel in a federal europe will do nicely thank you very much.
Ye know there's that old british nationalist argument, I've more in common with working class people in edinburgh, liverpool, london, aye agree with that sentiment. I've equally as much in common with people in dublin, paris, lyon, dusseldorf, valencia, warsaw, athens.... Insularism is the british nationalists choice, not mine.
Tbf, I think Gove is one of the few members of government who even vaguely gives a shit about whether Scotland stays in the union
Even if his brexit has made it inevitable that Scotland will end up leaving
Mebbes aye, but Gove is still Scottish
ethnically yes but he has no right to a vote in scotland and his opinions matter to me not one jot as he is not one of the people of scotland - an ethnically diverse mix of the people who have made the country their home.
Where is his home? He is just of one of the scots diaspora
Gove will not get a vote in the next scottish referendum. My friend of danish birth who runs a business here and pays taxes here will. My friend who holds a US passport but lives here and pays their taxes will. My Polish colleague who lives here and pays her taxes here will. My ukranian colleague will etc etc
We are the people of Scotland. I say again. " it does not matter where I come from as a person - its where we are going as a nation"
its probably time for this
Hoots Mon!
the key thing is “have you made scotland your home?” He has not
So the 750000 diaspora can do one?
Why even offer citizenship to them post independence?
Where is his home? He is just of one of the scots diaspora
Wasnt gove proposing letting Scots in England get a vote in ref2 😂
Wasnt gove proposing letting Scots in England get a vote in ref2
It appears he was asked a question on the issue rather than proactively opining. All he said was it was "interesting"
big_n_daft
So the 750000 diaspora can do one?
in terms of determining the future of scotland, yes.
We are the people of Scotland. I say again. ” it does not matter where I come from as a person – its where we are going as a nation”
Must be great to know for the young people who were born raised and lived in Scotland that they'll get excommunicated from "the people of Scotland" the moment they move abroad, or one station down the Trainline
in terms of determining the future of scotland, yes.
Makes you wonder why do many nationalists live elsewhere....
This guy thinks he can be a MSP from Somerset
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18610823.wings-scotland-party-still-considered-ahead-election/
That guy's a dick and should F off. 😆
That guys a dick and should F off
Not one of "the people of Scotland" then?
But still a Scot? Like Gove.
There's no such thing as a Scottish citizen yet, so it's a question that can only be answered by the people that live here.
You're the one that's preoccupied with an attempt to define a Scottish ethnicity or nativism here. Which is irrelevant to the independence question. If you live and make a life here, that is the defining factor. And rightly so. Citizenship follows this discussion.
Ah; I get it Big n daft! You original point was aimed at me and I assumed you thought I didn't know he was Scottish? My objection to him is that he is an arse; who despite being born into very challenging background, has chosen to adopt the worst aspects of conservatism despite having an idea of the social chaos it creates (See also Baroness Ruthie of Buckhaven) Nothing to do with his race,but you seem a wee bit obsessed with your conviction that all nationalists are anti English?
During the 2014 referendum in Scotland eligibility to vote was on existing electoral roles. If you were registered in Scotland you got to vote. I recall a fair bit of moaning from expats, but I think that was the only way to do it.
Oddly I could have registered and voted in the last Kiwi election, I just met the criteria. I chose not to, as that didn't seem right, as I would not be subject to the result.
As an aside, 16 is the voting age in Scottish elections (but not to elect to UK parliament) that might make quite a difference next time!
That wings guy is a effing roaster
Preaching to the converted and repelling those we could win over.
That wings guy is a effing roaster
Preaching to the converted and repelling those we could win over.
That's OK he's not one of "the people of Scotland" you can disown him. Well unless he achieves his ambition to be an MSP, commute from Somerset will be a pain though.
Having said that could anyone left me know if you have to be eligible to vote to become an MSP? He might be planning to move and become one of "the people of Scotland" to be eligible to be a MSP
you seem a wee bit obsessed with your conviction that all nationalists are anti English?
I thought we had settled that Gove was a Scot, but not one of "the people of Scotland" unless he heads back to live north of the border. I think we have established that Gove is disliked by some posters. As is the "Wings over Scotland" MSP hopeful.
So instead of deciding eligibility based on established conventions such as national election eligibility (which would be easy to extrapolate in the Indy scenario and is a very fair one), you come up with this bizarre arbitrary ruleset, and call it "people of Scotland", where can I find this IndyRef Kool-aid? What's next, reducing the voting age to 15?
There was a lot of moaning during Brexit for excluding EU citizens from the vote, yet now this "People of Scotland" ruleset will exclude expats, I guess my mental gymnastics are not strong enough for this one.
baboonz
Free Member
So instead of deciding eligibility based on established conventions such as national election eligibility (which would be easy to extrapolate in the Indy scenario and is a very fair one), you come up with this bizarre arbitrary ruleset, and call it “people of Scotland”, where can I find this IndyRef Kool-aid? What’s next, reducing the voting age to 15?There was a lot of moaning during Brexit for excluding EU citizens from the vote, yet now this “People of Scotland” ruleset will exclude expats, I guess my mental gymnastics are not strong enough for this one.
You don't need to do mental gymnastics, just look at the rules for the last yin, precedent has been set.
There was a lot of moaning during Brexit for excluding EU citizens from the vote,
Westminster decision not Holyrood
The "people of Scotland" is very clear and longstanding. These are the people who have made the country their home. Nothing to do with ethnicity real or perceived.
its one of the differences between blood and soil nationalism and civic nationalism
No one serious thinks ex pats should get a vote!
Edit - apart from those ex pats that meet the criteria of which there are some ( of a variety of ethnicities) but the idea that anoyone who claims scots heritage could vote is absurd
The Tories have really screwed up.
They have more to worry about than just Scotland now.
Now there's an independence for Northern England campaign which seems to be gaining momentum.
And as for NI, they have a new POTUS who identifies with Ireland - all their talk of breaking the Good Friday Agreement and starving the Irish is going to bounce back. Easy trade deal with the USA? Ha!
I think there is actually an argument to be made that expats should have the vote in this referendum.
In the last one, had it been successful, I would not have been affected because I would have been able to keep my British passport. My standing in the country I'm living in wouldn't have been affected.
In this case, if the vote is successful, I should be able to apply for a Scottish passport and hopefully be a citizen of a country that is part of the EU.
Overall I think it would be best to stick to the rules of the previous referendum but all I'm saying is that the expats have a lot more at stake in this referendum compared to the last one.
I think there is actually an argument to be made that expats should have the vote in this referendum.
In the last one, had it been successful, I would not have been affected because I would have been able to keep my British passport. My standing in the country I’m living in wouldn’t have been affected.
In this case, if the vote is successful, I should be able to apply for a Scottish passport and hopefully be a citizen of a country that is part of the EU.
Overall I think it would be best to stick to the rules of the previous referendum but all I’m saying is that the expats have a lot more at stake in this referendum compared to the last one.
I'm not sure the expats have any more at stake. In both scenarios you would be able to get a Scottish passport
I’m not sure the expats have any more at stake. In both scenarios you would be able to get a Scottish passport
Many of us have careers that require us to be able to move freely in Europe. After the first indyref, if Yes had won, we wouldn't have been forced to give up our British passports (we didn't think the UK was going to vote to leave the EU, remember).
Now, if Yes wins, we'll have access to a passport that will still allow us to move freely in the EU. If Scotland votes No then we won't and our careers will be over unless we can find another passport.
We definitely have more at stake this time around.
expats have a lot more at stake in this referendum compared to the last one.
What do you mean this referendum? The leadership of the SNP won't countenance any scenario other than the UK Govt granting a Section 30. Why on earth would Boris, any replacement Tory PM or future Labour PM want to do that? Meanwhile, Free Public Transport For All!! Thanks a bunch NEC.
still no right to a vote tho unless you meet the criteria.
I am sorry but unless you live here or have lived here recently then its quite right you get no say.
I saw the figure of 75 000 000 people who claim to be ex pats
Want a say - make the commitment.
Want a say – make the commitment.
Ironically, if Scotland votes No, many of us will be forced to make the commitment against our will.
Now there’s an independence for Northern England campaign which seems to be gaining momentum
Please start a separate thread if you are introducing this tripe (see what I did there?)
You'll be buying Yr Hen Ogledd T-shirts and flying St Cuthbert's banner next
Want a say – make the commitment.
That Wings over Scotland MSP hopeful disagrees, he has lots to say
@BruceWee I'm not sure what you mean. We've left the EU. Surely any career decision has already been made?
BruceWee
Free Member
Now, if Yes wins, we’ll have access to a passport that will still allow us to move freely in the EU. If Scotland votes No then we won’t and our careers will be over unless we can find another passport.We definitely have more at stake this time around.
Eh? You do know there's the brexit thing? The EU free movement is gone from the british passport after new year....
The “people of Scotland” is very clear and longstanding. These are the people who have made the country their home. Nothing to do with ethnicity real or perceived.
I rarely agree with TJ, but I definitely agree with him on this.
If you want to vote, live here (and pay your taxes).
If you are already in a job then most likely your work will have made arrangements for you to be able to keep it, in which case you'll probably be alright assuming that the rules surrounding your visa don't change.
However, when it comes time to move on to the next job, either because a project finishes or through redundancy, if you've got a non-EU passport you are going to find it a lot more difficult to find work.
Big n daft - the wings guy has no chance of becoming and MSP even if he is eligible which I doubt but cannot be bothered to look up. He is on the fringes as an outlier anyway and largely discredited.
BruceWee
Free Member
However, when it comes time to move on to the next job, either because a project finishes or through redundancy, if you’ve got a non-EU passport you are going to find it a lot more difficult to find work.
Which you won't have after January? You're making no sense here.
big_n_daft
Free Member
That Wings over Scotland MSP hopeful disagrees, he has lots to say
You seem to be the only one putting any relevance in him here.
In my view it should depend on the topics of the vote. Parliament elections, referenda on independence - residents as defined by those on electoral role.
I would have liked to vote on the Kiwi flag referendum - I think that is an issue that impacts on all Kiwis, even those living overseas - just to illustrate the difference.
I think I think (searching brain archive) there was legislation in the Scottish Parliament re suffrage for Scotland referendum in 2014 - there will likely be same if it happens again - with the associated public consultation.
Or we could let TJ decide?
I think I may be on to something - we could issue you with a tartan Sorting Bonnet TJ!
we could issue you with a tartan Sorting Bonnet TJ!
He'd be a Hufflehuff, deffo.
Ironically, if Scotland votes No, many of us will be forced to make the commitment against our will.
Bruce - at that point, would it not be easier to say that Scotland/UK no longer represents your interests/lifestyle/desires and apply for citizenship in whichever country it is you have chosen to make your home? It seems like a false argument to say "I should have a say whether a country I don't live it should do something, so that I can continue to choose not to live in it".
Which you won’t have after January?
Yes, after January UK expats won't have an EU passport. Or is that not what you're asking?
I'm struggling to understand what you are saying here as well.
Let's try this. You have a job on a project working in Sweden. The project is ending so you start looking around for the next job. You see jobs advertised in Germany, Spain, and Italy but you can't apply to any of them because they all require EU citizenship. Your project in Sweden ends and you have to go back to the UK because as a non-EU citizen without a job you are not allowed to stay there.
This is the type of scenario I'm talking about. Obviously it's still not 100% clear what will happen if there is a no-deal Brexit. It could be you get fired from your job in Sweden and kicked out the country immediately.
Even if the WA is ratified it's not clear if UK citizens will be allowed to move freely between EU countries. Most likely you will be tied to the country you are already in.
Unless the hardest of hard Brexits comes to pass all the UK expats won't immediately be shipped back to the UK on January 1st. Those of us who don't secure EU passports will most likely drip back to the UK over the next few years.
^^^
I'm struggling to understand what any of that has to do with Scottish independence?
Scotland rejoining the EU wouldn't be an automatic process for a start.