Scotland Indyref 2

[quote=yourguitarhero ]Money-wise, it might be worse, might be the same.

On what basis do you think it might be the same?

[quote=highlandman ]Please remember that many of the stats that central government have been using & quoting for several years have been heavily massaged to make Scotland look a fair bit less wealthy than reality.

You have noticed that the stats being quoted on here are mostly from the Scottish government? 🙄

How come you guys think you know better, or is it just wishful thinking?

highlandman
I'm repeating myself here, but please explain (using facts) why St Nic doesn't correct the statistics put out by her own government statistics department?
also the pain you speak of.. who will suffer it.. the poor, the weak? If anyone else.. then who?

aracer - Member

You have noticed that the stats being quoted on here are mostly from the Scottish government?

The report is designed to allow users to understand and analyse Scotland’s fiscal position under different scenarios within the current constitutional framework.

They also aren't what the figures would be under an independent scotland.

[img] [/img]

How could we possibly resist this forward thinking vision...

Which bit of that is wrong?

[quote=grumpysculler ]There was also a Tory amendment to give Scotland FFA. It got voted down too but the SNP voted against it

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/snp-loses-full-fiscal-autonomy-5888775

MPs voted 309 to 60 against full fiscal autonomy - which would allow the Scottish Parliament to give itself permanent new powers to raise taxes and control spending.

All 56 of the SNP's MPs backed an amendment but it was defeated overwhelmingly after a Commons debate.

A handful of rebels from the other parties joined the Scottish nationalists, including Labour's Dennis Skinner.

outofbreath - Member
Which bit of that is wrong?

Well, the whole erosion of workers rights bit.. the real reason behind brexit...

You disagree?

fantastic universities

Ah yes remind me of the SNP position on funding uni research, yep that was to stay as part of the Research Councils, and hence, research priorities will still be set by Westminster (& Swindon).

aracer, did you actually read my post? Please try just a little bit harder next time! I'm not talking about the many and varied posts on here, I'm talking about the skewed stance that is the benchmark of Westmonster. London has been deliberately under-representing the yield form Scotland for a long time and unfortunately far too many folk believe the carefully filtered nonsense that frequently makes its way into the UK national press. I loved the Independant's negative spin yesterday on 'Oil price crisis for the SNP'. The oil price is now double what it was a year ago and the north sea is pumping for all its worth, making up for last year. Exploration effort may still be low but anyone working on the production side will tell you about how well things are doing once again.
A benevolent tax regime and collusion between the oil majors and Westminster is holding back the apparent PRT yield. New fields are ready for exploitation as and when the price makes them viable.
There are parallels in other areas of Scotland's tax yield, especially in the grey economy.
Finally, as we won't be paying for a share of the Trident monster, that means England's over ambitious arrogance will come home to roost.
Scotland will do just fine.

"Well, the whole erosion of workers rights bit.."

So workers rights should never change, regardless of circumstance?

'This is not a moment to play politics or create uncertainty', Theresa May tells SNP

Really? Pot . kettle, black?

outofbreath - Member
"Well, the whole erosion of workers rights bit.."

So workers rights should never change, regardless of circumstance?

Nah we should go back to slavery and workhouses, the rich need to get richer, to hell with everyone else.

outofbreath - Member
"Well, the whole erosion of workers rights bit.."

So workers rights should never change, regardless of circumstance?

What changes do you propose?

seosamh77, I think you've answered my question. You can't fault Liam Fox's logic, and you can't even rule out changes to Workers rights yourself.

😆 the logic is full of shit. It puts peoples well being behind profit.

So workers rights should never change, regardless of circumstance?

They should only change for the better, never for worse. And what are these circumstances (capitalist excuses) you mention?

Well it seems to have been established by southern experts that the SNP will make a mess of the Scottish economy after independence.

And that perfectly illustrates the beauty of independence, we can change our government, our votes will have value.

[quote=highlandman ]aracer, did you actually read my post?

Yes, it was standard wishful thinking, hence my response. If you'd been paying attention we've been mostly discussing the Scottish Government's figures on this thread.

The oil price is now double what it was a year ago

[s]#jambafact[/s] about 39 dollars a barrel a year ago, currently about 51.

Finally, as we won't be paying for a share of the Trident monster

Your share of which is tiny compared to the Scottish deficit.

[quote=epicyclo ]Well it seems to have been established by southern experts that the SNP will make a mess of the Scottish economy after independence.

[img] [/img]

I digress but why are the 5-year old ramblings of corrupt, thieving ideologue Liam Fox being edited to make them look current and suddenly doing the rounds again? There's a question.

"And what are these circumstances"

I was already satisfied, bit I'm happy to make up a simple example. Say you're a prehistoric man, starving. The only food available is 10% more dangerous to forage than the last food you foraged.

Stick to principles and die, or forage the food that's slightly more risky?

“If the estimates cited earlier of Scotland's contributions to the UK of £222 billion since 1980 are taken as valid and the population share of the UK's debt is subtracted then Scotland's net contribution to the UK could be
£86 billion.

Should keep us going for 8 years of deficit.... 😆

outofbreath - Member
"And what are these circumstances"

I was already satisfied, bit I'm happy to make up a simple example. Say you're a prehistoric man, starving. The only food available is 10% more dangerous to forage than the last food you foraged.

Stick to principles and die, or forage the food that's slightly more risky?

😆

[quote=outofbreath ]"And what are these circumstances"
I was already satisfied, bit I'm happy to make up a simple example. Say you're a prehistoric man, starving. The only food available is 10% more dangerous to forage than the last food you foraged.
Stick to principles and die, or forage the food that's slightly more risky?

Dirty capitalist

As we seem to be revisiting the same things over and over here is an (edited) post of mine from a few days ago.

we'll deal with it

My translation:
-2Bn temporary westmonster austerity = work of Satan leading to food banks and suicides
-10Bn ongoing SNP austerity = a satisfying challenge for a brave young nation.

no one really knows

Translation:
GERS are the Scottish Governments own figures. The SNP based the book of dreams on GERS when oil was expensive and it fitted their narrative.
They also made changes to how the data is collected to make it more accurate (and it comes with error bars of about 1bn I think).

But now that it doesn't fit the narrative, it's just a remote guess?

[subtext: No-one can know _anything_ about the future _ever_, all evidence that disagrees with me is useless and I'll probably be killed by a truck I saw coming but ignored.]

On the bright side, you all seem to accept that indy would lead to massive hardship for the weakest in society for a long time.

But you don't seem to care as long as the right people (with the right flags) making the cuts. Fair enough I see where you are coming from and your Conservative party membership card is in the post.

(although what your proposing in terms of the fiscal future of Scotland would make a brexiter blush.

"And what are these circumstances"

I was already satisfied, bit I'm happy to make up a simple example. Say you're a prehistoric man, starving. The only food available is 10% more dangerous to forage than the last food you foraged.

Stick to principles and die, or forage the food that's slightly more risky?

Seeing that we are not prehistoric men, what are the circumstances in the 21st century living in a rich western country

epicyclo » Well it seems to have been established by southern experts that the SNP will make a mess of the Scottish economy after independence.

You seem to be more concerned about the location of the commenter than the content of their posts?
I guess thats might be the way to go in a debate about Nationalism, but surely Scottish Nationalism is more inclusive?

Will iScotland have its own Maths?

Will iScotland have its own Maths?

No, but it's unlikely to be a simplistic as yours is.

An interesting read that gives a slight insight in to the complexities of national assets and liabilities, and the division there of.

http://allofusfirst.org/tasks/render/file/?fileID=0E6C9768-E352-B8B1-B418993DB5C0D4AE

[quote=yourguitarhero ]
But in 30 years, at least I'll have a meaningful input within a group of people who are much more aligned with my views and priorities.

Me too.

I was a strong proponent of a no vote back in 2014 and I put way too much misplaced emphasis on how Scotland was more aligned with England, in particular the north. There's a clear division there now and it's clear to me that the mindset, attitude and beliefs are not aligned in the slightest. It's time to break away and make decisions ourselves that are in line with what is needed in Scotland, not balanced against or even slanted towards needs south of the border.

eat_the_pudding

Will iScotland have its own Maths?

Westminster seems to so hell why not?

[i]I digress but why are the 5-year old ramblings of corrupt, thieving ideologue Liam Fox being edited to make them look current and suddenly doing the rounds again? There's a question. [/I]

Probably because he's now in a position of power and still believes it?

eat_the_pudding - Member
Scottish Nationalism is more inclusive?

You tell us, what are your examples of the exclusive nature of scottish nationalism?

eat_the_pudding - Member
...You seem to be more concerned about the location of the commenter than the content of their posts?...

As for mentioning their location, that was because they got all upset last time when I said they were irrelevants because they have no vote because they are not in Scotland.

I'll take what you have said onboard, and if you like, to avoid offending them by calling them southerners, I can start using "foreigners" to describe non-voting commentators from now on.

However in your search for offence you missed the main point of my post.
[i]"And that perfectly illustrates the beauty of independence, we can change our government, our votes will have value."[/i]

"Seeing that we are not prehistoric men, what are the circumstances in the 21st century living in a rich western country"

Frankly, if you have to add complexity to obfuscate in order for your view to hold true it pretty much *has* to be bollocks.

Can't you just make up your own simple modern world example where hypothetical workers are severely disadvantaged by their rights in a hypothetical situation?

Or how about, Port Talbot Steel works where they were all gonna get sacked, unless they gave up their pension?

Or how about, Port Talbot Steel works where they were all gonna get sacked, unless they gave up their pension?

*looks out of window*

"I remember when all this was steel works, as far as the eye can see."

*sigh*

You tell us, what are your examples of the exclusive nature of scottish nationalism?

Well for a start there's the unwritten assumption (shared by you, and directed at me a few days ago.. "why do you hate us?") that posters on here who disagree with Scottish independence must not be Scottish or must live outside Scotland.

Then there's the point I made above that epicyclo seems to value posts less when they are from outside Scotland.

Seems pretty clear to me?

(Please don't answer with examples of English people being nasty.. That's no excuse)

Or how about, Port Talbot Steel works where they were all gonna get sacked, unless they gave up their pension?

capitalist excuse number 1

eat_the_pudding - Member
...Then there's the point I made above that epicyclo seems to value posts less when they are from outside Scotland...

If you don't understand why, I can see why you have difficulty with the concept of independence.

And that explains exclusivity how exactly?

I have not excluded you from anything. I think you have a valid opinion, albeit one that I completely disagree with. And I still think you seem to have an underlying hatred that you don't realize you project through your style of writing.

it's still no proof of exclusivity. I'm happy enough for you to have you opinion.

You seem to be more concerned about the location of the commenter than the content of their posts?

Is this where we start chanting "Lock Her Up" and "Make Scotland Great Again"??

Perhaps we should even think about building a wall, it's all the rage. The Roman's were millennia ahead of their time.

Eat ther pudding - you keep banging on about a ten billion deficit. You have been told numerous times why this is not so but you won't listen - and your posts display a real dislike of the scots and a nasty arrogance

There is no point in debating with someone whos eyes are shut

"And that perfectly illustrates the beauty of independence, we can change our government, our votes will have value."

Only if you vote with the majority. The lines will simply be a bit different.

My general election vote had no value, my candidate was not elected. Only one of my votes in the last Holyrood election made any difference and the time before that, neither vote made a difference. My council votes have had very limited value too. If we leave the UK, that first vote disappears but the others all stay (broadly) the same.

I used to vote Lib Dem. Then I moved house. Voting Lib Dem in any election is now pointless so I don't. It happens in just about any electoral system except for true national PR.

epicyclo.. so you're trying to create annoyance? 🙂

I know some people are trolling: "You've got no central bank and yer da smells of elderberries" etc. etc. but there are serious questions about the economics of iScotland and pointing at someone's nationality doesn't answer them.

How about a serious attempt to fill the gaps. Can you see why just saying "we'll cope" might not cut it with people who have parents in care or no job or expensive health needs?

grumpysculler
Is this where we start chanting "Lock Her Up" and "Make Scotland Great Again"??

The wild irony here is truly wild 😆

[img] [/img]

Scotland is more likely to revert to coalitions imo grumpy. I'd be happy about that.

I've no allegiance to any party and would prefer they were all forced to work with each other. Part of the attraction to me.