MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
The other problem with a lot of comments on here is to lump all Tory voters together, or all SNP etc.
Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I'm tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.
Governments, ideologies, voting intention are all very complicated. There are dozens of different types of Tory just as there different types of Labour and SNP supporters.
People need to be more respectful. This thread has evolved into a micro version of the national debate, and it shows why the country can't heal. More extreme voices are drowning out the centrists. I think most Brits are centrist, but we didn't have a choice.
We want on average differnt things.
But still, there is only a 'we' because of the invisible line. You could very easily draw a line across England and get different average results; across Wales, or probably across Scotland too.
you realise there is hardly a fag paper between labour and the SNP on most issues?
But SNP wasn't led by Corbyn was it? If we'd had someone other than Corbyn we'd have a Labour government by now and that argument would dissolve. There are so many issues involved here all over the place, far beyond policy, and yet you are choosing to interpret it as us/them.
Would you support Welsh independence? Northern English independence? London independence?
You had two choices - labour or lib dems. Both occupy the centre. SNP are only a fag paper away from the most recent labour manifesto and in the past the SNP have been more left wing
Brave of you to put your head above the parapet but by voting tory you have voted for a racist PM.
I have removed the Bevan quote I orginally put in
But still, there is only a ‘we’ because of the invisible line. You could very easily draw a line across England and get different average results; across Wales, or probably across Scotland too.
NOpe - not at all.
https://principalfish.co.uk/electionmaps/
I've not commented on individual tories.
It's that the system is rigged in that parites favour. It's it's going to be more rigged when boris's gerrymandering is finished.
Re the polls question above. Yes they have moved a bit, but even as a unionist I'm surprised they haven't shown a solid support for independence. Maybe as Brexit kicks in they will.
However if I was the SNP leadership I'd be worried that what may happen is that things settle down a bit, people shrug their shoulders and pretty much say "Ah well, it is what it is". While people on things like STW are generally quite motivated politically (which is why we're having this debate) large parts of the population are fairly apathetic. I mean we've just had what was regarded as a super important election, yet one in three voters couldn't be bothered to tun out. People do quickly get used to things and living in a post-Brexit country may be one of those. Who knows, only time will tell.
Molgrips - my personal preference would be for a federal europe of small nation states of around 5 - 15 million people. Most european countries larger than that would happily split.
If thats not going to happen I would prefer a federal UK of similar size units.
But thats not going to happen
My only way to get a progressive government is to support scottish independence. Its far from my preferred option but its my pragmatic choice
As regards the far right TJ, I would love it if you are right and I am wrong. I am not convinced though. When the Irish arrived on the west coast in large numbers they faced huge amounts of hostility and downright violence.
Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.
Not many but then only 25% of the population voted Tory. I'm not saying you're racist or xenophobic but you gave them your vote and strengthened their mandate.
And yes, the Scottish Tories I have spoken to tend to be racist. They seem to be the only ones comfortable admitting it.
If we’d had someone other than Corbyn we’d have a Labour government by now and that argument would dissolve.
Assuming Boris sees out a 5 year session, it'll be 70 years since the voters Scotland opted for a Tory government.
You're ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.
I see it a bit like the Scottish football fans abroad – its self policing. As with the fans if someone ties to act up they get policed by the rest of the fans. I think that the people who would want to be hard right blood and soil nationalists realise there in no place for them in the independence movement and thus there is no breeding ground for them and their xenophobia is challenged by the nationalists
TJ's defo drank the cool aid. 😆
molgrips
Subscriber
You’re ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.
The question goes back to you, why is the British border sacrosanct?
The question goes back to you, why is the British border sacrosanct?
It's not. I'd vote for European Federalism, as I said before. Moving to world federalism whenever that's possible.
You’re ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.
NO I haven't. Your point simply is not right unless you draw something very convoluted which is why I put a link to the electoral map.
also I have explained to you that scots nationalism is not an ideological issue to me. Its a pragmatic one. Its just scots independence is the only way I am going to get a government I would like - a progressive one. I am more than happy for other groups to also secede from the UK but there is no way you can draw a line on a map that gives any region of england bar inner london a differnt political tinge. Just look at the map
Go on - draw me a line on a map of the UK that would give a different political slant each side of it.
It’s not. I’d vote for European Federalism, as I said before. Moving to world federalism whenever that’s possible.
You'd be perfectly happy with the UK as the 51st state of the US then? Or for your kids to be brought up speaking Chinese instead of English? How about them being conscripted into a Russian army?
Do you have any data for that?
To be honest no, it's just a gut feeling.
kennyp
Subscriber
As regards the far right TJ, I would love it if you are right and I am wrong. I am not convinced though. When the Irish arrived on the west coast in large numbers they faced huge amounts of hostility and downright violence.
There plenty of racism in scotland currently. (I think it's a bigger attitude problem than the much publicised sectarian issues) I agree with you, more immigration and it would probably lead to some tensions, could be managed better though, so that doesn't necessarily need to be the case.
But aye, scotland isn't immune to it.
] And yes, the Scottish Tories I have spoken to tend to be racist
Whilst I would never vote for the tory Party, I've met far far more bigots that support the snp than tories. They make up the minority of their supporters, but they exist and are very vocal.
You only had to have a brief look on the the independence posts on fb to see the irrational hatred that was spewed forth on pretty much every thread.
I didn't see the same on pro union threads..
Its just scots independence is the only way I am going to get a government I would like – a progressive one
I'm pretty certain I'm gonny think the Scottish government are arses a lot of the time. 😆
As a centrist I didn't have 2 choices. Labour under Corbyn is/was very left wing, pretty much socialist. I agreed with the Lib Dems more, but the revoke the referendum without a say was abhorrent to me. If they had offered a second referendum I probably would have voted them, even though I didn't like Swinson.
Regardless, my point was there were many complex reasons why people voted Tory. Racism, nationalism and xenophobia were not mine or many others.
Labour under Corbyn is/was very left wing, pretty much socialist.
As TJ has pointed out, there was hardly a bawhair between the SNP policies and those of the Labour party. In fact, many of the commitments made were simple regurgitating some of the policies currently already enacted in Scotland (even ones Labour had previously voted against).
Regardless, my point was there were many complex reasons why people voted Tory. Racism, nationalism and xenophobia were not mine or many others.
tbh my problem with the tory party isn't particularly racism, nationalism or xenophobia. It's their political philosophies of every man for themselves I disagree with.
Racism, nationalism or xenophobia are minority issues. Granted that might not seem like it's so to their victims, but largely when talking in terms of populations it is.
scotroutes
Labour under Corbyn is/was very left wing, pretty much socialist.
As TJ has pointed out, there was hardly a bawhair between the SNP policies and those of the Labour party. In fact, many of the commitments made were simple regurgitating some of the policies currently already enacted in Scotland (even ones Labour had previously voted against).
Corbyns problem was that everyone suspected his policies where just the tip of the iceberg, they were more a nod to socialism than actual socialism. Corbyns big problem though was his lack of commitment on fairly easy questions. He was trying to be too coy and smart for his own good when people just wanted straight easy answers.
Corbyns big problem was the attack dogs of the tory controlled media! Same as Red Ed and same as the next labour leader.
Tom Zesty - you cannot have it both ways. If the SNP are centrist then so are labour. Indeed that is true. We had centre left and centre right choices in england - labour and lib Dems. You voted hard right.
Noting in the labour manifesto would be out of place in a social democrat party anywhere in europe
I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.
You may not be but you are voting for and supporting a party that is. You may not be racist, sexist or nationalistic but if you cannot see that the tory polices and the way they implement them is unkind then you are not looking very hard or maybe so detached from them you really don't realise.
Why people get so angry about what the tories do is because they are closer to the impact they have.
I never said I thought the SNP were centrist?
I think my definition of centre left and hard right are probably different to many of yours. To me, centre left was Blair. Corbyn, momentum and McDonell are considerably more left than that. To me, hard right is BNP, not the new government that includes many more working class and young MPs. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just offering a different perspective.
I would also argue that many others in the wider world agree with this, I don't know many people who would describe Corbyn and McDonell as centre left like the comment above.
Ah yes. It was molgrips suggested the SNP were centrist and that lots of English voters would have opted for their sort of policies. It's probably true that you'd see the SNP as pretty Left then.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2019
Apologies for the muddle then Tom
You’d be perfectly happy with the UK as the 51st state of the
USEUSSR then? Or for your kids to be brought up speakingChineseGerman instead of English? How about them being conscripted into anRussianEU army?
Sounds kinda ridiculous when you say it like that, doesn't it?
I'd say Molgrips is on the same page, internationally speaking but just has a different idea about how to go about it. And that's okay.
You want to go independent and then become part of a larger EU. That's okay too.
I'm trying to find the common ground here, it's too easy to just attack the bits you don't agree with whilst ignoring the bits you do.
And Joe, absolutely agree with you, there are plenty of bawbags in this country but it's just easier to attack the bawbags with the other colour of football top on. And there are more than a few folk in the movement itself with problematic attitudes towards those of differing political views (Tories!!!!!11!!!1!ONE!) and the voting patterns rest of the UK (I'm alright Jock) that give cause for concern.
And who the hell has even heard of Smeagle the Gael or whatever they're called beyond a few folk that like to use them as a stick to beat rallys with? I'm not surprised people put up with them as I couldn't name a person that has heard of them. That said, more people should know about them.
Sounds kinda ridiculous when you say it like that, doesn’t it?
EUSSR? EU Army? Yes, you are right. It does sound ridiculous.
You’d be perfectly happy with the UK as the 51st state of the US then? Or for your kids to be brought up speaking Chinese instead of English? How about them being conscripted into a Russian army?
Wot?
EUSSR? EU Army? Yes, you are right. It does sound ridiculous.
Exactly as ridiculous as your original quote. Don't put words in peoples mouths, I knew what he meant and I'm sure you did too.
Tom Zesty
...Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.
I know quite a few Tories. Nice people socially.
So it completely flummoxes me how they can support a party whose policies have killed so many of our weak and vulnerable population. I hope it's incompetence rather than active malice - although these days I hae ma doots.
But either way, a party that's killing so many of our citizens is not one I want controlling my country.
I'm sure you're a nice guy too, but how do you square that with your conscience?
But either way, a party that’s killing so many of our citizens is not one I want controlling my country.
I'll reiterate my dislike for the Tory party, however id like to see some evidence to back up this fairly bold claim! Has there been a rise in mortality within the poorest of society under the Tory government? Feel free to correct me if im wrong but this sounds like nationalist nonsense to me.
The healthcare system is a bit shit..but then again the snp have to take a fair share of the blame for that fiasco as well.
yes TPbiker there has been people dying because of benefit sanctions. 10 000 UK wide extra deaths a year is a conservative (sic) estimate
Then there are those who die because of cuts in healthcare either waiting for treatments or who are failed by poor mental health provisions
Its grotesque and abhorrent and shows how little value the tories put on poor peoples lives.
Its grotesque and abhorrent and shows how little value the tories put on poor peoples lives.
81,000 people died in just three years because of benefit cuts and sanctions
TJ
Not posting to defend the Tories or the benefit system but those articles are wrong and have been debunked.It isn't just the right wing press that make things up or don't check their facts properly.
yes TPbiker there has been people dying because of benefit sanctions. 10 000 UK wide extra deaths a year is a conservative (sic) estimate
Then there are those who die because of cuts in healthcare either waiting for treatments or who are failed by poor mental health provisions
Its grotesque and abhorrent and shows how little value the tories put on poor peoples lives.
81,000 people died in just three years because of benefit cuts and sanctions
Seems a bit overly sensationalist tbh, the claim of 'killing' has no evidence.
DWP does not hold information on the reason for death, therefore no causal effect between the WCA decision and the number of people who died within a year of that decision should be assumed from these figures.
, I don’t know many people who would describe Corbyn and McDonell as centre left like the comment above.
I've only heard one person describe them as such, tj.
taxi25
Member
, I don’t know many people who would describe Corbyn and McDonell as centre left like the comment above.I’ve only heard one person describe them as such, tj.
They are nowhere near far left. A bit left of left of centre is probably about right.
Unless we are describing the labour party that initiated the NHS as far left? Cause that's the era they largely take their cue from. They tell you as much, John McDonald in particular.
The demonisation of Corbyn and his politics is getting a bit ridiculous tbh.
I've been listening to LBC for the last few days and it's a hoot. Giving many reasons for Corbyns failure. Obrien had a cracker, my favourite bigging up some 32 year that was upset Corbyn went to a few sinn fein do's and meetings in the 80s and cause he stays in birmingham and they've never caught the real pub bombers from the 70s.. I mean mon to buggery....
All that with a straight face and no-one mentions the elephant in the room that the tories were in government with the blinking DUP for the last couple of years! 😆
Ultimately, the election was about personalities, Corbyn was a wet sponge, Johnson had at least some mass appeal and like-ability about him..
Tbh, I'm pretty certain a large element of this election was decided who'd you rather go for a pint with! 😆
Aw aye, and there was Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done!!!! 😆
Guys - there is no doubt at all that benefit sanctions and healthcare cuts have led to deaths. I deliberately used a conservative estimate of how many.
Do I really need to gather more evidence? the DWP even admit it in their own papers.
direct causal relationships are hard to prove but when you have a correlation between benefit sanctions and suicides that is statistically significant then that is good evidence. When yo have ex soldiers dying of starvation in an unheated flat because they had their benefits stopped. When you have old folk dying of hypothermia, when you have people dying of heart attacks while on waiting lists for treatments, when you have people having delays in cancer diagnosis that means their curable stage one become incurable stage 4 then it is 100% certain that tory policies have lead to many tens of thousands of excess deaths over their time in office
Thanks tj. Don't have time to read that but I'm assuming (as has been pointed out) that you can spin it to blame benefits cuts if you are inclined to do so..and I'm sure the guardian positioned it in such a way..
Even if entirely true, as yet we have seen absolutely no evidence that scotland will be better off independent, and if we aren't then there won't be any cash for more benefits and better nhs, regardless of intentions.
And this is the thing with the snp and alot of the nationalists .. they come across as wanting independence first and foremost..a better standard of living they sell as a bi-product without any real facts to back it up. In 2014, Other than snp propaganda pretty much all economists claimed we'd be worse off independent. I can't correlate that to a better standard of living. I honestly believe some in the snp would have independence regardless of the costs..which to me doesn't make them much better than the Tories.
The snp should spend more time focusing on running our country, rather than banging on about independence. They come across as bad as the rabid brexiteers half the time.
This includes people whose suicide note expressly said they were killing themselves because of benefit sanctions
Read up on David Clapson - just one.
"the coroner said that when David Clapson died he had no food in his stomach. Clapson’s benefits had been stopped as a result of missing one meeting at the jobcentre. He was diabetic, and without the £71.70 a week from his jobseeker’s allowance he couldn’t afford to eat or put credit on his electricity card to keep the fridge where he kept his insulin working. Three weeks later Clapson died from diabetic ketoacidosis, caused by a severe lack of insulin. A pile of CVs was found next to his body."
tpbiker - increasing taxes would allow us to provide better for the vulnerable even if the economy does not grow. Just increasing taxation to the european average would give a huge boost. Sweden for example has a government spend of 50% of gdp. the UK 38%. there is plenty of money - and the SNP have actually spent a fair amount in attempting to alleviate the cruelest parts of the benefits regime
Mty belief is and independent scotland would be able to grow its economy faster than we do under the UK
We can find billions for penis substitute weapons of mass destruction and for bombing brown folk - and refuse to stop people staving in this rich country
Its immoral, abhorrent and disgusting and I want no part of it.
Here are two more bits of deliberate cruelty in benefits system. One chap with serious mental health difficulties was sanctioned wrongly. He was completely blameless - the DWPs error. However this meant he needed to make a new claim under universal credit to regain any benefits. However universal credit means he has to wait a month for any money. this happened last week, he has to wait until the new year to get any money. He will not receive anything until the new year. thats a month with no money - and he has a family. NO money to even feed them. I have personal knowledge of this one. this is what drives folk to suicide.
Or how about the badly disabled woman who was found "fit for work" and benefits stopped - for the third time. Previous twice she won her appeals - but it took almost 3 months. Thats now 3 times in three years she has wrongly had her benefits stopped leaving her months without any income each time.
How about the benefit claimant sanctioned for attending a job interview? Yes really. she missed a jobcentre appointment by less than an hour. Benefits stopped, evicted from her house. made homeless.
Or how about the person with suspected cancer that waited so long for treatment that it became untreatable
I could go on and on.
Or how about this catch 22. a rural benefit claimant was put in ta position whereby he had to report every day to the jobcentre. The bus fares to the jobcentre came to more than his benefits. He ended up walking a 10 mile round trip.
Or even my fried with severe MS with related dementia. Incointinent, unable walk or to make even simple decisions. Found fit for work and about to have her benefits stopped. fortunately in her case we managed to get it reconsidered and the benefits continued but the stress of it caused a relapse in her condition that hastened her end.
too many of you live cosy little lives with no idea of what is being done. Open your eyes to the veniality and deliberate cruelty of the Tories
12 years of SNP rule.
3 years since Social care and benefits were devolved, but only partially taken up.
1 year since: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38601944
14 hours ago: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen/1910894/anger-follows-revelation-that-5500-kids-on-the-breadline-in-aberdeen/
£5million a year to piss up the wall: https://www.thenational.scot/news/18101353.auditor-general-raises-range-concerns-bord-na-gaidhlig/
.... and they take 11 years to correct a spelling error: https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/it-s-all-about-the-a-ccent-as-gaelic-error-corrected-at-theatre-188104/
Molgrips – my personal preference would be for a federal europe of small nation states of around 5 – 15 million people. Most european countries larger than that would happily split.
If thats not going to happen I would prefer a federal UK of similar size units.
But thats not going to happen
And to think you considered me some sort of evil milk snatching Tory for suggesting devolving taxation powers more - now you are calling for a federalist UK made up of city sized units.
The shock.
Why you make deliberately provocative attacks on me I do not know. You are clearly right wing as can be seen from your many posts on political topics and your suggestion was that rich areas pay less tax and poor areas pay more
With that I will now simply ignore you as beneath contempt.
12 years of SNP rule.
3 years since Social care and benefits were devolved, but only partially taken up.
1 year since: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38601944
14 hours ago: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen/1910894/anger-follows-revelation-that-5500-kids-on-the-breadline-in-aberdeen/
£5million a year to piss up the wall: https://www.thenational.scot/news/18101353.auditor-general-raises-range-concerns-bord-na-gaidhlig/
…. and they take 11 years to correct a spelling error: https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/it-s-all-about-the-a-ccent-as-gaelic-error-corrected-at-theatre-188104/
Yes, SNP bad.
You do realise that after independence Scotland probably won't be a single party state?
Or are you using the 'Scots are genetically incapable of making decisions' argument?
BruceWee
Sometimes SNP are bad.
Education, falling standards, and withdrawal from surveys that measure and publicise falling standards. (brought to us by nicola "judge me on my record on education" sturgeon).
NHS, hospital disasters.
Spending 10x more on setting up a benefits agency than they claimed it would take to set up a whole independent country. and then;
Failing to take control of social care and benefits (leaving scottish people at the mercy of the "murderous tories").
Making more severe cuts to council funding than the tories have in england (and then blaming "westminster austerity" despite having a few grand per person more to spend up here because of Barnett.
It goes on and on but we can't mention it because we're "talking scotland down" or "SNP baaaaad".
If you can't actually see that sorting at least some of this is more immediate and important than independence and take it into account in your political decision making then you are no better than the unicorn farming brexshitters.
Deep withing the SNP they don't want to do the best with what they have (including £12/14Bn free extra money on top of Scottish taxes) because if people see that we actually have a competent relatively well funded legislature that makes the lives of Scottish people better, and protects us from the worst of the tories, then why have independence?
Its all "jam tmorrow" from nationalists of all kinds. Brought to you using the magic incantation "It'll just be better, look at the width of my soundbite, ignore the details".
FML
PS if things weren't dark enough for scotland already, apparently word on the street has it that derek mackay is being lined up to replace nicola in case she gets dragged down by the result in the new years scottish court cases. #MeTae
Competence? Who needs it!
For anyone who doesn't know who derek mackay is, hes currently scotlands finance secretary.
Illegitimate product of a drunken tryst between lala the telly tubby and bungle from rainbow.
Voted scottish man most likely not to find his arse with both hands, even while his hands were superglued to his arse.
Dunning-kruger made flesh.
But at least he thinks hes funny.
tpbiker
...Even if entirely true, as yet we have seen absolutely no evidence that scotland will be better off independent, and if we aren’t then there won’t be any cash for more benefits and better nhs, regardless of intentions...
Ah, if you set this theme to rhyme, it could be the chorus to the that well sung song "You can't be independent because..."
Well sung because it has been used by the UK Establishment and press for just about every country that has become independent.
Check what was said about the USA becoming independent and you'll see the same theme being pushed. They seem to have done quite well, haven't they?
Now before the "Oh, buts..." jump in, let's look at the example of a tiny country, Malta.
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And let's look at the map of every country that has become independent, and they range from huge to miniscule
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You'll find the same refrain of you'll not make it preceding their independence.
How many of them have come crawling back begging to be ruled by Westminster?
Here's the list:
.
.
It goes on and on but we can’t mention it because we’re “talking scotland down” or “SNP baaaaad”.
No, you can't mention it because it's, 'Hey look, a squirrel!'
There are two completely separate questions:
1. Are the SNP competent at governing the country?
2. Would Scotland be a successful independent country?
The ‘Scots are genetically incapable of making decisions’ argument was rightly ridiculed so all you have left is to point out all the SNP's perceived failures in government and pretend it's the same question.
For the benefit of those who talk about Scottish exceptionalism...
brucewee,
So you defend the snp (by accusing other people of using "snpbaad") but then when I list a few areas they could improve in you move the goalposts to;
Would Scotland be a successful independent country
Well it might. But it would initially be poorer and have 5-10x austerity level cuts until the economy caught up with our current spending which the SNP growth report says might take 25 years with unicorn levels of growth.
All this while claiming that westminster cuts are killing people (I don't disagree that they are, but, apparently unlike you, I don't see how further cuts will improve the situation).
Your argument doesn't make sense.
Why don't you tell me how we'll save 13Bn a year by getting rid of trident which the SNP say only costs us 0.6Bn :O)
Why don't you tell me about the other massive savings which will be made via independence, and not cause any negative effects for the poor (I've seen a lot of snp pols on telly and, like you guys here, trident is all they ever mention .. no other downsides at all, weird eh?.)
Its flegs all the way down.
Brexshit and Scexshit.
Nationalisnm squared.
PS I just love the fact that you seen to genuinely think that criticising the political aims of alex nicola and derek means I think that all scottish people are genetically deficient.
Have you considered the olympic conclusion jumping championships?
For clarity, no-one (that I can see) is saying that scotland can't be independent and relatively successful.
I'm only pointing out some economic facts and its pissing you off so much that you have to defend yourself by calling me a wee bit racist, and assuming I'm making generalisations about all scottish people.
Why not instead ask yourself why arguing for your political ends seems to require lying to your countrymen, ignoring well known facts, and promising brexit sized unicorns.
And then tell me again why you are so different from the brexshitters.
So you defend the snp
Do I? Where?
It's fair to point out that a favourite unionist tactic is to highlight the SNP's failings and then pretend it's an example of why Scotland wouldn't be a successful independent country.
PS I just love the fact that you seen to genuinely think that criticising the political aims of alex nicola and derek means I think that all scottish people are genetically deficient.
I was quoting Johann Lamont.
I’m only pointing out some economic facts and its pissing you off so much that you have to defend yourself by calling me a wee bit racist, and assuming I’m making generalisations about all scottish people.
Again, you're going to have to point out where I'm calling you racist.
Why not instead ask yourself why arguing for your political ends seems to require lying to your countrymen, ignoring well known facts, and promising brexit sized unicorns.
And yet again, you're going to have to point out exactly where I'm promising unicorns.
Do I? Where?
By using the phrase "snpbad" which is a popular way to deflect any criticism of the SNP without actual argument. By using the phrase "perceived failures" where "failures" would have done.
I was quoting Johann Lamont.
Lovely why should I care? But you definitely implied that I was making that argument buy quoting it in a reply to me (Or what was the point of quoting it at all?)
Again, you’re going to have to point out where I’m calling you racist.
You accused me of implying that a group of people are "genetically incapable of making decisions". Is that not racist where you come from?
I only said that derek mackay was the offspring of lala and bungle, not all scottish people.
And yet again, you’re going to have to point out exactly where I’m promising unicorns.
By ignoring any economic facts about the scottish economy and/or critcism of the SNP by replying with slogans instead of facts (or even your own interpretation of facts). By refusing to acknowledge even the most obvious financial downsides to independence under any circumstances.
By using the phrase “snpbad” which is a popular way to deflect any criticism of the SNP without actual argument.
If you want to have a discussion on the SNP's record in government then you should definitely start a thread on that. This is a thread on whether Scotland should be independent. They are two separate questions. It is a favourite unionist tactic to try to answer the question of whether Scotland should be independent with 'Look how bad the SNP are' because it's easier than arguing against independence.
If you can make an argument that the SNP's record in government is directly linked to whether an independent Scotland will be successful then please make it. Otherwise it's starting to sound an awful lot like the next point.
Lovely why should I care?
Like it or not, there are people in Scotland who prefer the Tory way of thinking. They don't believe Scots make good decisions and want to see more decisions taken by Westminster.
‘Scots are genetically incapable of making decisions’ is a direct quote from one of the Better Together leaders and is a handy shorthand for this view.
If you feel that Scots are capable of making good decisions about their future then we agree. I'm glad.
By ignoring any economic facts about the scottish economy and/or critcism of the SNP by replying with slogans instead of facts (or even your own interpretation of facts). By refusing to acknowledge even the most obvious financial downsides to independence under any circumstances.
If you're going to put words in my mouth I'm going to have a hard time arguing against it. Please quote exactly where I said these things.
If I agree to never again utter the phrase 'SNP bad' and promise to always say, 'You are attempting to deflect attention away from the question of whether Scotland should be an independent country by pointing out the failures of the SNP's record in government despite the fact the two are unrelated unless you are using it as an example of why Scots aren't capable of making good decisions in which case it is easier to just say you don't think Scots can make good decisions', can we stop talking about it?
Arguments against the current SNP goverment are relevant to the case for independence, in the same way that arguments about the state of the UK under tory rule are relevant to the case for independence.
Claiming "toriesbad" (I agree) but then refusing to use (or take) the powers you have to put it right NOW, and then claiming that "independence" will fix these things is at the very least dishonest.
If you’re going to put words in my mouth I’m going to have a hard time arguing against it. Please quote exactly where I said these things.
I said you ignore these things. You claim to want to talk about "whether an independent scotland can be successful", but you refuse to acknowledge (or try to refute) any of the current economic facts about barnett, the deficit, etc. etc. which might tell us whether that is actually true now or a unicorn we might catch in the future.
So either you agree with the facts and don't think they are important, or you see that the facts don't support your argumentm, and are ignoring them.
Which is it?
As you say, there are many countries the size of scotland that are successful. Whether all of them can support the same level of e.g. NHS provision we are used to (or would like) in Scotland on a similar sized economy never seems to come into your argument.
Why not?
The aim of the SNP in government was to show competence, to encourage people to see the possibilities independence.
They haven't.
They've degenerated into a sloganised westminster blaming machine (even with more money to spend than would be available under independence).
That doesn't speak to the competence of all scottish people but it does tell you a bit about good intentions and unicorn salesmen.
If you genuinely think that the competence of the SNP in power is completely detached from their believe-ability of their claims about a future independent scotland I have a unicorn I'd like to sell you.
You seem to be in the market and very uncritical.
Like it or not, there are people in Scotland who prefer the Tory way of thinking. They don’t believe Scots make good decisions and want to see more decisions taken by Westminster.
‘Scots are genetically incapable of making decisions’ is a direct quote from one of the Better Together leaders and is a handy shorthand for this view.
If you feel that Scots are capable of making good decisions about their future then we agree. I’m glad.
looking the number of prominent Scots in Parliament including recent Prime Ministers clearly shows that Scots are as capable as any of the UK nations, arguing anything else is just myopic rubbish
The argument is whether iS is a good decision, quite a few people think it's not, quite a few think it is. Both points of view have validity. Scots are more than capable of running Scotland in so far as they are good at running the UK @ Westminster/ Holyrood/ locally
The utopian view of a future iS as a land where everyone is cared for for, benefit rules have no negative outcomes and the Celtic Tiger/ oil/ EU/ green energy sale/ carbon credit sales/ massive immigration/ in NATO despite banning nukes/ etc will lift the economy into the powerhouse of European small nations is frankly a lot less credible. But there are plenty of people south of the border who believe in similar unicorns so it's not a Scottish thing
So either you agree with the facts and don’t think they are important, or you see that the facts don’t support your argumentm, and are ignoring them.
The 'facts' have been disputed endlessly on here and we can go for another round of 'look, I've shown my working this time' or we can avoid repeating all the same arguments over and over again. If you really want to you can go back to page 1 and start reading through. Every economic analysis is on here somewhere.
The problem is the only 'fact' is that we don't have all the facts. The way our economies are reported doesn't lend itself to what if scenarios which means that each side can present it's vision of utopia or economic desolation depending on their viewpoint.
IMO the answer lies somewhere in between. I would be very surprised if life didn't get worse for some people after independence. Maybe even the majority. However, I believe that in the longer term people would be able to elect governments that were accountable and representing their interests. Long term I don't see how life wouldn't end up being better for most people.
The democratic deficit is undeniable. If you have an argument against that I'd love to hear it.
looking the number of prominent Scots in Parliament including recent Prime Ministers clearly shows that Scots are as capable as any of the UK nations, arguing anything else is just myopic rubbish
That was then and this is now. Jo Swinson will be the last Scottish leader of a national party. What good is a PM if they can't guarantee they'll be able to hold their seat?
England has decided. It sees it's future as being Empire 2.0. Scotland just wants to be an ordinary European nation.
BruceWee
If you want to have a discussion on the SNP’s record in government then you should definitely start a thread on that.
And if you want to have that discussion, rather than simply repeating the propaganda of the Unionist media and the Westminster parties' attack dogs, can you make it comparative?
For example, instead of saying Scottish NHS waiting targets are bad, also show what they are in England under the competent and caring governance of a Tory govt.
Ditto for education and all the other SNPbaad propaganda.
There's a reason that's never done in the Unionist media.
And then perhaps consider what a Scottish govt could do if it had access to all the tax revenue raised in Scotland instead of the portion called a "grant".
The ‘facts’ have been disputed endlessly on here and we can go for another round of ‘look, I’ve shown my working this time’ or we can avoid repeating all the same arguments over and over again. If you really want to you can go back to page 1 and start reading through. Every economic analysis is on here somewhere.
Yes, yes, I accept that the facts don't support your argument, so it's definitely better (for you) if we go all postmodern and accept that we can never know anything for sure.
(I mean, am I even typing this or am I a squid with delusion?)
I'm equally sure that when all (but one I think) of the economists in the world said that brexit would be an economic disaster you spoke up and said "how can they be sure it won't just be all sunlit uplands like wot nigel says?"
I would be very surprised if life didn’t get worse for some people after independence. Maybe even the majority.
So glad you admit that. So can you please explain how scottish austerity^2 cuts as a result of independence are fluffier and more acceptable than tory austerity cuts that kill poor people?
And are you going to be up front with the people who will actually pay the price?
Cos' if you are you'll be the first brexiter/scexiter to do so.
Or should the people just believe the hype and wave their flags exuberantly, as if the cat got the sudocreme again?
PS you should definitely consider politics as a career. You seem to have all the attributes. A practical ability to ignore reality and a lack of care for the consequences (for others).
Yes, yes, I accept that the facts don’t support your argument, so it’s definitely better (for you) if we go all postmodern and accept that we can never know anything for sure.
Well, it seems out of the two of us I'm not the only one who only reads what he wants to read.
So glad you admit that. So can you please explain how scottish austerity^2 cuts as a result of independence are fluffier and more acceptable than tory austerity cuts that kill poor people?
Is there something wrong with your eyes that mean you can only read part of a paragraph? Or is this just yet another example of selective reading?
Like many I used to be against independence and now I'm for it. By reading entire paragraphs I was able to get an idea of the whole picture and eventually came to the conclusion that independence would be for the best.
I can only suggest you learn to read entire paragraphs and start to make up your own mind.
epicyclo,
I refer you to what I said above about facts. It is beyond doubt (although clearly not beyond argument) that scottish spending is far above scottish revenue.
No massaging of the [SG] figures or reality can change that. (unless you'd like to show me where the scottish gov or nicola have ever supported your point themselves?). (I'll wait but not hold my breath)
If the only argument you have is "that things in england are worse", you seem to;
a) lack ambition for what scotland can achieve with a current £1400 (ish) per person more than the rest of the UK (thanks to Barnett)
b) lack reality over what would happen if that went away overnight (independence)
c) Not have looked at the comparative education results between scotland and england/wales for a while.
I'm not arguing that the tories are good. They're not , and the current situation is the best reason for having a scottish legislature that can help insulate us from them.
If the facts make you look bad, it's not propaganda.
Accusations of "SNPbaaad" is just contentless propaganda, pulled out when the facts don't fit your world view.
brucewee
Is there something wrong with your eyes that mean you can only read part of a paragraph?
I can read full paragraphs. The bit I quoted is what I see as the important bit. (It highlights the [not uncommon these days] attitude that other peoples sacrifices are worth making for your political ends).
I'm really struggling to see where you are coming from. Do you think that things are going to get better under the Tories?
Or, at the very least, do you think things are going to stay the way they are now under the Tories?
I'm asking because I want to understand what set of circumstances would result in you supporting Scottish independence or, failing that, supporting a 2nd referendum.
At the moment it seems like there is absolutely no set of circumstances in which you would support either. If that's the case there's very little point in discussing this further because it's impossible to come to a consensus if one party is immovable in their views.
TJ what you gibbering about, no-one is doubting the benefit system in crap, just calling out your notion that the government is killing people 10s of thousands of people is a ridiculously sensationalist.
ETP is suffering from the worst case of Jockholm Syndrome that I've ever seen😂
England has decided. It sees it’s future as being Empire 2.0.
only in the fervent imagination of a Scots Nationalist
Scotland just wants to be an ordinary European nation.
It's only the fervent Scots Nationalists that think rUK isn't ordinary
So glad you admit that. So can you please explain how scottish austerity^2 cuts as a result of independence are fluffier and more acceptable than tory austerity cuts that kill poor people?
Lets have a gander at your sums for this?
I'm not doubting the case that scotland needs to improves it's finances. But you seem pretty certain it's an impossibility. So you must have the numbers handy?
only in the fervent imagination of a Scots Nationalist
And the UK government. You know, the ones with an 80 seat majority.
It’s only the fervent Scots Nationalists that think rUK isn’t ordinary
You don't speak to many Europeans do you?
> https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre/?fbclid=IwAR0aaTod-4RCP3LTH0nNZK_H5me9f__jSmdIzUd6wLURw3Ad4Gd7u308z3Y <
And the UK government. You know, the ones with an 80 seat majority
I rest my case......
Written by a Scots Nationalist living "(I live in the South East at the moment)"
Can't think why he wasn't living in Scotland rather than the hell he portrays.
As for the article using 2010 data and statements for example "Apart from the Benelux countries and Cyprus, all of Europe's countries use more renewable energy than the UK, "
which in 2019 are rubbish, remind me which country uses brown coal power stations etc etc
as before
only in the fervent imagination of a Scots Nationalist
I rest my case……
You're making no sense. If you could maybe explain your case a bit better for us thickos in the back?
As for the article using 2010 data and statements for example “Apart from the Benelux countries and Cyprus, all of Europe’s countries use more renewable energy than the UK, ”
which in 2019 are rubbish, remind me which country uses brown coal power stations etc etc
But apart from that it got everything else right?
I love the tactic where if you can't deny the theme, pick a detail and attack it!