Bearing in mind a central thread of at least two posters on here is that indy is all because of hatred of the English, you are very one eyed. Or had you not noticed that part of the debate?
UKIP, 1.6% of the electorate in 2015 (Scotland)
UKIP, 14.1% of the electorate in 2015 (England)
Which two posters, at least, think Indy is [b]all because[/b] of a hatred of the English ?
Nationalism is much stronger in Scotland than England, that's why the SNP is in power. SNP is Scotland's UKIP.
Hard Brexhsit - unlikely
Centralised Power - total BS, more like quasi federalism
Anti-austerity - 😉
Left wing - cut corporation tax below rUK, quote Laffer when arguing against raising MRT of income tax
ballsy stuff to spins so may lies all at the same time. Still the end justifies the means
#SDBMB
*pulls tarp off IndyMegaBus "WE SEND 350m LITRES OF IRN BRU TO ENGLAND EVERY YEAR. LETS GIVE IT TO OUR FAT KIDS INSTEAD"
I think Nicola is just taking the shoeing at Twickers a bit hard this morning. I blame Jonathan Joseph personally.
The link that Kimber posted to the BBC comments makes depressing reading. So many nasty comments.
I thought that FM presented a clear, balanced and coherent argument, and that should be appreciated regardless of political view. Even if you do not agree with independence, it should be possible to appreciate that much has changed since the last referendum and why many people might be aggrieved.
what sort of trip is she having saying that scotland has closer ties to the eu than the uk? that she'd rather trade with the eu than the uk as its 8 times bigger?
will they be re building hadrians wall or will it be sturgeons wall?
now shes says its ok cos jezzer corbyn says its ok..
she just wants to be only the telly and it would be amusing if it wasnt as dangerous as trump in the whitehouse.
Nationalism is much stronger in Scotland than England, that's why the SNP is in power. SNP is Scotland's UKIP.
Bollocks.
best of three?
she just wants to be only the telly and it would be amusing if it wasnt as dangerous as trump in the whitehouse.
come on now.. its not THAT dangerous. Mind you I did once get a stale rowie off the face once in Aberdeen, grazed my check quite badly.
The scary thing for Scotland is the lack of a representative for common sense. The hard Nats need no persuading, they're ooot, the hard of understanding could easily be fooled by Book of Dreams II, the cannies are safe on the other side.
So who is the sensible voice for the undecideds? Not obvious. it was bad last time.
jambalaya - Member
SNP is Scotland's UKIP.
😆
THM, That depends on your definition of common sense. Many view FM as embodiment of Common Sense - at the last General Election she was winning plaudits from many English voters over her pragmatic approach to politics
So who is the sensible voice for the undecideds? Not obvious. it was bad last time.
Hopefully Ruth Davidson because she is both competent and liked (the person, not the party). The spectator ran a piece a couple of weeks ago predicting that a referendum would be called because Sturgeon's ratings are dropping while Davidson's are improving.
Yes probably Ruth - hope she is well advised on the social media strategy. This will be key and the Nats are already well ahead in planning there
May responds by saying, to paraphrase, "piss off, and focus on governing for your people".
EDIT:
Many view FM as embodiment of Common Sense
Approval rating going down quite quickly, Davidson is more popular now, but after so long in Government you would expect that to happen.
I can't read this whole thread so - how much has public opinion in Scotland shifted since the Brexit vote, and in which direction?
Davidson is a decent orator, pretty likeable too, but will always be hamstrung by being attached to a party that used to be toxic up here, but are now about as relevant as Labour.
Let's all remember, if you don't live in Scotland you haven't a vote, but if you do (and are 16 or older) then you have.
Real simple.
I can't read this whole thread so - how much has public opinion in Scotland shifted since the Brexit vote, and in which direction?
Impossible to say to be honest, After the recent polls and results...
The polls show there has been movement when there is mention of a hard Brexit in the press but when things are a little quieter then its about the same as 2014.Either the electorate or the pollsters have no idea.
I personally think calling the referendum is a mistake but I'm sure there are plenty who will disagree with me.
Let's all remember, if you don't live in Scotland you haven't a vote, but if you do (and are 16 or older) then you have.
Not if they use the same franchise as last time.
If you live in Scotland, are over 16 and come from one of a short list of countries that we approve of (but not any other ones) then you can have a vote.
Aye, Ruth has to face ne'er forget the poll tax and the fact that one female Tory single handedly destroyed Scotland's otherwise healthy and strong manufacturing base in the past.
No really
I personally think calling the referendum is a mistake but I'm sure there are plenty who will disagree with me.
I believe it is a mistake for Scotland and the UK, but I also believe that she had no option politically. Not to call for one would have left her, or her party, in tatters.
After she presented her list of unrealistic options she had to do something otherwise she and the SNP would be seen as powerless and irrelevant.
I do not think she will get the same easy ride through Westminster that Alex got last time - I doubt they will be as relaxed. I don't see WM blocking it, but I also don't see her getting the carte blanche that she is asking for.
Impossible to say to be honest
+1
I think a second referendum will probably just entrench views, I don't expect that many to change. Concern is whether going for a 2nd results in things being nastier than before, there is more at stake now, as it really becomes a now or never vote.
Why would TM accept a referendum before the issue that is "supposedly" triggering it had been decided?
I also think this is too early. But as noted it's a forced move.
Pretty sure I'm abstaining this time round. 360 degrees of bollocks.
molgrips - Member
I can't read this whole thread so - how much has public opinion in Scotland shifted since the Brexit vote, and in which direction?
It's shifted to about 50% each way, so it's a gamble to call for a referendum now.
However we're between a rock and a hard place as far as timing, so there wasn't really much option for Sturgeon. It was referendum or "bend over Scotland".
From our pov it's not that bad. Last time we started with a base of around 25% and nearly got across the line so there's reason for hope.
I suspect Sturgeon is betting on the adverse effects of Brexit on Scotland becoming clearer to help the independence case.
But it's not going to be a picnic.
Pretty sure I'm abstaining this time round
With the "once in a generation" phrase still swirling round my head that's my initial feeling.
I don't see WM blocking it, but I also don't see her getting the carte blanche that she is asking for.
I can't see Westminster not blocking it and Government has already pretty much said as much.
Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
teamhurtmore - Member
Why would TM accept a referendum before the issue that is "supposedly" triggering it had been decided?
A sense of fair play?
teamhurtmore - Member
Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
I hope you're made lead propagandist on better together mk2! 😆
SNP is Scotland's UKIP.
#JAMBAFACTS
Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
Maybe in the annals of political language.
I suspect Sturgeon is betting on the adverse effects of Brexit on Scotland becoming clearer to help the independence case.
Or possibly that calling the referendum might actually force Theresa May to try and offer Scotland a better deal post EU, to prevent a Yes vote?
Seems a bit of an unlikely plan as it would still probably result in Sturgeon's resignation, plus pretty sure they offered Scotland some concessions last time ('The Vow') which never materialised.
"once in a generation"
I hate that this still gets trotted out, I don't know where I sit Yes/No, and don't really want another referendum, but either way, when I voted No last time it was a 'Devil You Know' sort of vote, which didn't take into account in any way the threat of being taken out of the EU. In fact, I'm pretty sure we were threatened with being chucked out of the EU if we voted Yes!
I'm sure this argument has been done to death elsewhere, so I'll just trot out the cliched rebuttal...
'material changes'!
😉
Has anyone seen Teresa May speaking in pubic lately, or has she gone very quiet?
teamhurtmore - Member
Aye, Ruth has to face ne'er forget the poll tax and the fact that one female Tory single handedly destroyed Scotland's otherwise healthy and strong manufacturing base in the past.
No really
Posted 28 minutes ago # Report-Post
Or...We don't like the way the Tory party governs and would like something different thanks? You are the only person who mentions this, along with your attempt to pin anti-English sentiment onto us. You have been doing it for what 57/58 pages now. Any proof or is "the truth out there?"
Has anyone seen Teresa May speaking in pubic lately, or has she gone very quiet?
She doesn't believe in giving a running commentary, it's quite refreshing.
According to the UK government, the referendum "would be divisive and cause huge economic uncertainty". Obviously, Theresa May is not a keen student of irony.
Fair play Joe? since when has Ncola played fair even with her supporters? Take it back, she refused to increase the MRT which was fair enough. Beloved tartan Tory 😉
Note the justification for Folly2 - unlike the RW of us, wee nippy has 20:20 vision in he future and apparently it's definitely a hard Brexshit and a cliff edge. And we haven't even triggered A50 yet!!!
Lies, lies and BS. A heady cocktail of which there will be plenty served now.
So ducks, how different are SNP policies to filthy Tory scum policies down south?
Reality not rhetoric and (perhaps like rugby outcome based)
Remind me, how many Tory MPs are there in Scotland nd wha is their percentage of MSPs?
eat_the_pudding - Member
epicyclo
...But I'm not going to let pass your implication that opposing scottish independence is somehow related to a vision that includes;you'll have Empire 2.0 to occupy your time. Lots and lots of brown people to exploit and feel superior to....
In this thread I have been accused of being a racist once already by someone who failed to produce any evidence and the implication of your comment isn't far off the same thing.Its obviously not enough that you (and not only you) can't come up with any evidence that iScotland would not be an economic basket case. But it seems that anyone who disagrees with you or uses facts must somehow be an outsider with reprehensible character traits.
Such people can't be Scottish,
They can't live in Scotland,
They must be tories,
They must support brexit,
They must have certain attitudes about "brown people",Whats next maybe "traitor" "quisling"?
There is a saying if the cap fits etc. but actually I wasn't aiming that at you.
I'd just come from the online comments of some of England's national dailies and experienced the love they have for Scots and foreigners, and their ineffable belief that the Commonwealth is going to take the place of the EU, so perhaps I was a bit jaundiced.
Note the first line of my post - it's aimed at the ill-wishers.
[i]"Ah, the wishful thinking amongst our ill-wishers.
Never mind chaps, although we will be gone soon, you'll have Empire 2.0 to occupy your time. Lots and lots of brown people to exploit and feel superior to...."[/i]
If you examine the British Empire's history, it has been about exploiting brown and black peoples and often murderously, so Westminster's talk of Empire 2.0 is repugnant.
I don't think anyone can come with any proof that Scotland will be an economic basket case (or otherwise), but there's plenty of historical evidence that small countries thrive after independence.
Based on the 100% non-return rate of former colonies and possessions I think it's a safe prediction that this will apply to Scotland.
However I believe there is a strong element of triumphant ill will in the statements that Scotland will be a basket case, so I feel no obligation to be polite to those people.
There is some sensitivity about the use of the terms "quisling" and "traitor".
I include the definitions so you can understand how I would apply them.
From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Definition of quisling: a person who helps an enemy that has taken control of his or her country
Definition of traitor: a person who is not loyal to his or her own country, friends, etc. : a person who betrays a country or group of people by helping or supporting an enemy
Bedroom tax and Nuclear weapons are two that spring to mind THM. But it is about hating the bastard English Tories; isn't it?
Of course, don't ask, don't tell (or simple free riding). Honest iS politics. I can see the appeal for you guys.
interesting that the unionists are running scared of another ref... surely if the case is so strong in favour of the union, it'll be shooty in...
I suspect that this time, they realise the need to justify the union, not just pick holes in the case for independence.
