Scotland Indyref 2

Thanks for clearing that up Jamby; I'll put that down as an "or" then?

TJ Barosso said so many times during the Referendum campaign, I wouldn't put too much store in what EU officials have to say in the wake of Brexit.

Duckman, this thread like most others drifts off from time to time. As TJ said even if you had a Referendum now the accepted view is it would be a stronger No than 55/45 consistent with SNPs reduced majority at Holyrood, so it's a rather mute point.

Barrusso is not the EU. His statements were aimed at the Catalan separatist movement. The situation has changed since then

Now find some quotes from "the EU"

Tusk and Junkers post the EU referendum have both said there is no issue with an independent scotland remaining in the EU either with continuity or thru an expedited joining process as have many other powerful and influential folk..

Oh ~and I didn't say that at all and its not the truth anyway. Polls point to a closer vote right now but Sturgeon quite rightly does not want a vote unless the polls show a clear swing for yes which they have not. Try not to invent things folk say there is a good chap

As TJ said even if you had a Referendum now the accepted view is it would be a stronger No than 55/45 consistent with SNPs reduced majority at Holyrood, so it's a rather mute point.

Accepted by who? Is this another of your made up assertions?

Indeed it is as the polls show him to be wrong. the polls moved a point or two towards independence but thats not enough

Bienvenue et Bienvenido from the EU

The French president and Spanish prime minister have both said they are opposed to the EU negotiating potential membership for Scotland.

Spanish premier Mariano Rajoy said he "believes everyone is extremely against it" and that "if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves".

President Francois Hollande of France insisted the EU would make no advance deal with Scotland.

But who cares what Rajoy and Hollande think?

Cant believe that people are still talking about polls, but here you go from the LSE

Recent polls have not shown Brexit to make a decisive difference in terms of support for independence. A September 2016 poll which posed the question ‘If a referendum were held tomorrow, on whether Scotland should leave or remain part of the United Kingdom, how would you vote?’, showed support for independence at 45 per cent, with 55 per cent for remaining in the UK, ‘the same result as the 2014 Independence Referendum’.

Inconvenient

Ah polls they've been on a good run since 2014. Or not. Look at actual election results.

There isn't going to be a Referendum recognised by the UK government in Salmond's lifetime. The SNP won't even call one without UK recognition as they won't win it. It's too late, the opportunity was 2012-14 and it was lost.

http://www.yescalifornia.org/

I really don't know why SNP has to keep banging on about independence as Scottish people are not really treated as slaves you know.

SNP really needs to stop banging on about Independence coz that is really boring now. It's like your car is stuck on the 1st gear burning out the engine.

Give it up ... try again in another century or two when the world is a better place to live.

is that California thing for real ?

chewkw - Member
...SNP really needs to stop banging on about Independence coz that is really boring now...

So sorry that our desire for self-determination is boring you.

Shall I ask the SNP to desist to save you from ennui?

For at least the second time on this thread jamba, the SNP may have lost their overall majority this time but they lost seats on the list because their vote went up and they won more seats on the constituency section
The SNP vote was up compared to 2011 on both constituencies and regions
http://www.bbc.com/news/election/2016/scotland/results
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/overview/html/scotland.stm
You d'hondt understand our electoral system, which was created with a view to keeping the snp out of power

Good news for our colonial masters. [url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/entire-british-empire-restored-20160624109759 ]The Empire is restored.[/url] Now there will be lots more natives to sneer at.

Cruel to link to that, you will make some folk teary eyed and nostalgic for when the Colonies knew their place.

Finally, Nicola has found an argument that has won me over. I repent, please forgive me.
http://newsthump.com/2016/11/12/nicola-sturgeon-refuses-to-accept-result-of-england-vs-scotland-match/

So sorry that our desire for self-determination is boring you.

But not the desire of the majority of Scots it would seem. If a 2nd referendum goes your way, would you be willing to have a third foround those unhappy with the result?

Oh look! A winning footy match and the master race start to appear out of the woodwork.

zanelad - Member
But not the desire of the majority of Scots it would seem. If a 2nd referendum goes your way, would you be willing to have a third foround those unhappy with the result?

Zombies shouldn't have the vote - or at least the Postal Vote. They rose from the dead last time, hopefully measures will be taken to authenticate or at least cross-check postal votes next time so they won't affect the result so much.

Or we could take a leaf from the Brexit book and ban all non-Scots. It looks like the No vote was swung by English and EU voters, and that a majority of Scots voted for independence.

[url= http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/scottish-nationalism-stands-apart-from-other-secessionist-movements-for-being-civic-in-origin-rather-than-ethnic/ ]It's not where you were born but where we are going as a nation[/url] You're not really getting the civic nationalism thing there epic.
It was absolutely shameful that eu migrants were prevented from voting in the eu referendum.

Or we could take a leaf from the Brexit book and ban all non-Scots. It looks like the No vote was swung by English and EU voters, and that a majority of Scots voted for independence.

Always makes me shudder, regardless of the intent of meaning.

I was sat on a train out of Edinburgh last week, eaves dropping to all intents an purposes. Much the same thing was said in the overheard conversation, expect there was use of the words "scum" and "slaves".

Weekend in Edinburgh. The whole house party were Unionists - the anti SNP feeling made me look like a Strugeeon fan!!! 😉 I had expected a more balanced crowd but the well-heeled of the Capital seem entrenched in their opinion!!!

A bit of a dull day yesterday but for the first time I felt Edinburgh looked frankly scruffy. We went to Nat Gallery and the facades opposite were really tatty and the traffic with the trams awful. The whole facade needs an uplift.

Lovely big Poppy garden though!!!! 😉 they like their remembrance!!!

Not a big surprise in Edinburgh surely ? They'd be slaughtered economically by the Indy's in Glasgow voting out. I mean the SNP would even put the central bank in Glasgow to be near Parliament surely ?

gordimhor - Member
It's not where you were born but where we are going as a nation You're not really getting the civic nationalism thing there epic.

Reading it again, it doesn't look like it. so to make it clear, I believe everyone who lives here should have a say, not just the lucky ones who were born here.

Was just trying to highlight how the Brexit vote was skewed by not doing just that.

so to make it clear, I believe everyone who lives here should have a say, not just the lucky ones who were born here.

Was just trying to highlight how the Brexit vote was skewed by not doing just that.

The Scottish referendum franchise did not include all who live here - only British, Commonwealth and EU citizens.

Immigrants voting is an awkward one - I'd want anyone who has semi-permanently moved to this country to get a vote, but someone on a brief student visa shouldn't. I agree the Brexit franchise went too far.

The Brexit franchise also included expats, which our referendum didn't - I think a Scot living in Wales should probably have a vote as they have a vested interest. The SNP are making a big deal about needing access to EU freedom of movement, but denied a vote to any Scots who took advantage of that.

Expatriates certainly have a vested interest and who knows how they would have voted. I don't think they should have a vote people who live in a country should have the decisive say on how it is governed. It's one of the reasons deciding to emigrate can be so difficult and painful but in my opinion when you leave a country on a long term basis you leave your right to a vote in that country too

So if I take a temporary secondment to another country (or even just a site in England) then I lose my say in the future of a country I intend to return to and make my life in?

Both immigrants and emigrants are awkward and you need some sort of time limit to ensure that transient immigrants don't vote and transient emigrants aren't excluded.

You again say that

people who live in a country should have the decisive say on how it is governed

For example, a USA immigrant with indefinite leave to remain (a precursor for British citizenship) would not have been entitled to vote.

I agree with your first point it's a matter of defining "transient" as you put it or "longterm" as I put it. Both Scottish and UK governments agreed that the referendum was for residents of Scotland only. "In the House of Lords, Baroness Symons argued that the rest of the UK should be allowed to vote on Scottish independence, on the grounds that it would affect the whole country. This argument was rejected by the British government, as the Advocate General for Scotland Lord Wallace said that "whether or not Scotland should leave the United Kingdom is a matter for Scotland" quoted from wikipedia
I am aware that some folk living in Scotland were excluded from the vote but didn't know that included those from outside the eu or commonwealth but with long term leave to remain. That seems unfair.

[url= https://docs.google.com/document/d/13OPs4c91U4ggD1XrHWGAig8YOoXbehVSEpGwaJJWtpc/pub ]The postal vote issue...[/url]

Very sad to read in this morning's Scottish Times the obituary of Sir Donald Mackay. An intelligent and balanced supporter of independence, a fine economist, true gentleman, wonderful family man and excellent host.

RIP Sir Donald

epicyclo - Member

Or we could take a leaf from the Brexit book and ban all non-Scots. It looks like the No vote was swung by English and EU voters, and that a majority of Scots voted for independence.

I hadn't heard of this [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38155720?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38157481&link_location=live-reporting-story ]'listening exercise'[/url]

Have many people changed their views? Have you? Has there been a move to the Independence side?

A YouGov poll - 82% had not been approached either teaboy

Support for Indy as low as it was in 2014. 56 v 31 for not holding Indy Ref 2 and Yes / No is 38 v 49

Also roughly even between whether Scotland should try amd stay in the EU with big majority thinking its not possible

I hadn't heard of this 'listening exercise'

Have many people changed their views? Have you? Has there been a move to the Independence side?

I didn't respond to the questionnaire as it requested how I voted with personal details attached. And I wasn't alone.

I've gone from Yes to Meh.

44/56 with the don't knows and wouldn't votes taken out. Which would be a good starting point for the separatists, no-ones budging on either side in lieu of any campaigning.

Regards to whether there should be a ref before leave the EU, understandable, there's enough uncertainty right now without another scottish ref, so you can understand peoples reluctance. plus the independence vote was beaten, so i'd guess most are happy to see that through, for a bit.

incidentally, I'd never heard of the listening survey.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/db76febc-d782-11e6-9063-500e6740fc32

good article.

Alex Massie is one of the better unionist writers and he has a point about a truly confident culture not needing to proclaim it's origin. However to claim that the Scottish community,Gaels or Scots speakers are less capable of honest criticism in a cultural context is absolute nonsense
Ailig Massie S e aon de na sgrìobhadairean nas fheàrr Aonaidh agus tha ea 'phuing mu dha-rìribh misneachail cultar nach eil feumach air gu reachd a ghairm e nàiseantachd. Ge-tà gu bheil na h-Alba coimhearsnachd a tha nas lugha comasach onarach càineadh ann an co-theacsa cultarail a tha iomlan gun bhrìgh
Alex Massie is yin o the better scriveners frae a unionist view. He makes a guid point that a richt confident culture wad nae hae feel only need tae proclaim whaur it's frae. Forby a that tae claim that Scots,Gaels or Scots speakers are less capable of honest criticism in a cultural context is nocht but havers

I don't think he's criticizing the Scottish community gaels or scots speakers, he's have a sly dig at the SNP and their hordes, which is fair comment imo. There is a forced scottishness about them at times. imo.

Plus on the comment of Scots, well, I'd say it's just a dialect of English to the majority of Scots, it may have been something different years ago, but what you just wrote above is an English dialect not a a different language. You've also the likes of Gaelics signs everywhere, which are a nonsense.

Regardless, I think the main point is there's a contrivance on the Nat side, which I would struggle to disagree with.

There's certainly some on both sides of the debate who see supporters of the other side as an unthinking homogeneous mass. I agree with you about some of the SNP supporters. Though it is not confined to them nor to the wider independence movement. Back to Massie I think he was claiming that those people who choose to do their art in a Scottish idiom are less capable of honest criticism than what he called the anglophone community.
There have been few Scots and particularly few working class Scots at the head of the various institutions which fund and promote the arts in Scotland. I think this is due to social class not nationality, and the old Scottish cringe ie.something or someone from anywhere else must be better than it's Scottish counterpart.
I am not really bothered intellectually whether Scots is a language or a dialect. It's part. of our culture and has a literature and songs of it's own and should be supported.
I am embarrassed that I now write Gaelic which I learned as an adult better than the Scots I grew up speaking.
The Gaelic signs are only going up as and when the old ones need replaced so they're hardly everywhere

It's part. of our culture and has a literature and songs of it's own and should be supported.

Agreed

There is a forced scottishness about them at times. imo.

That there is a limited number of people now coming out with Gaelic around here (to distinguish themselves as Scottish) is very forced. This was a Scots region, not Gaelic speaking...

Lots of reasons for learning Gaelic or any language. Mine was family ties and just plain interest in the language.

grumpysculler - Member
There is a forced scottishness about them at times. imo.
That there is a limited number of people now coming out with Gaelic around here (to distinguish themselves as Scottish) is very forced. This was a Scots region, not Gaelic speaking...

I've no problem with people learning Gaelic, ffs look at my name! 😆 I just think the signs were purely for tourism reasons, which was fine, but you get them all over the shop now, so there's clearly a political bent for them, imo.

As for people speaking Gaelic, more power to them, that is substance that I wouldn't disagree with. There are links there that are nearer in time than 500/1000 years ago(it was gaelic speaking at some point in the past). My own granny and grandas first language was gaelic before the came over here in the 1930s/40s and got anglicised. I do wish they had taught me, nothing to do with any nationalistic feeling though(to ireland), that really doesn't concern me, I place no value in nationalism. I do think being bilingual would have been beneficial, something their working class backgrounds obviously didn't factor in, cause they never even passed it down to my father. (I guess there's a whole other story to the reason why there, but that's a different discussion.)

So May's hard Brexit and sucking up to Trump has pushed indyref support to its highest level...

I think exposing Tory councils in the SE benefiting from bribes will push it over the edge

RIP UK

[img] [/img]

http://www.thenational.scot/news/14903840.Treasury_mandarin_who_warned_against_currency_union_now_says_Scotland_leaving_UK_is_now__a_golden_opportunity_/