Scotland Indyref 2

But, you were warned this might happen before voting and chose to risk it..

There are repeated attempts to make out as if, at Indyref1, we all knew a EU referendum was coming. We didn't. We were told over an over that the way to save our EU membership was to vote No. we were told that Labour would win the coming election, or at worst there'd be another coalition - Ruth Davidson herself said so.

This airbrushing of history is a good attempt, but it's not true to say that people voted No in indyref1 knowing that an EU referendum was happening. It's just a lie.

There are repeated attempts to make out as if, at Indyref1, we all knew a EU referendum was coming. We didn't.

You knew it was a strong possibility. Many saw it as a probability. THe Tories had pledged one, and Labour had promised one if any further powers were to be transferred, and as pointed out, Rab specifically warned against the risk of it happening as a reason to vote Yes. It's entirely disingenuous to pretend this was a remote possibility that wasn't aired beforehand, or cropped up out of the blue in the aftermath of the indyref.

we were told that Labour would win the coming election, or at worst there'd be another coalition

Well, [b]some[/b] people said that... 😆 😆 😆

Ben you're right in that Better Together frequently used phrases like "only way to guarantee Scotland's EU membership is to vote no" It wasn't much of a guarantee though, because, in 2013 Cameron did promise a referendum on EU membership
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
Then again I see he made the same promise in 2009 and didn't deliver so maybe his loyal lieutenants in Better Together thought he wouldn't deliver this time either

tjagain - Member
anyway grumpy the situation is different post the EU referendum. I have seen EU lawyers opinion that if the EU wanted to do it they could simply declare scotland the successor state [b]so long as the independence vote was before the UK left the EU[/b]

I believe this is true, but fairly academic, I don't see there being a vote before brexit fully happens tbh.

I also think an IS vote based on being member of the EU is doomed to failure. I think a lot of people will view the EU differently post brexit, at least they will be confused as to where they stand, as i am regarding scotland in a post brexit EU.

I think an early referendum is too hasty, and doomed to failure tbh. Everything is just too complex. Meaning the game of subertuge that people on here and politicians like to play, will be all too easy.

Plus, simple fact is people did vote no, so you have to go with that for a while, and convince them otherwise, that's not happened yet, and opportunism on the back of brexit is a dangerous hand to play.

Plus as I've said before, brexit and how it goes, will answer alot of unanswerable question about an IS and the aftermath.

I have seen EU lawyers opinion that if the EU wanted to do it they could simply declare scotland the successor state so long as the independence vote was before the UK left the EU

Where and who paid for it? Or was it just a blog post or letter to the editor?

What legal (paid for or in house) advice has the SNP or Scottish Government had on the matter? Who from, and what did it say?

Joe and Nicola knows the polls too - she has to keep here more rabid members fed from the indy spoon while praying that the majority of people can be hoodwinked at a later date.

When do you think she will pass the first piece of legislation in the new session?
Do you reckon that with the good news that Bruce published, income inequality might start to follow rUk trends and improve at some stage?

Perhaps they do a pre emmitive vote so they can become the successor state or the EU hold out to see what way they vote??

Nothing is impossible where there is political will- see the euro for example 😉

Its clearly very different from last time re EU membership.

teamhurtmore - Member
hoodwinked

See this is the thing about your stance tbh, it's all very sneerish at times, you should reign it in a bit.. It's not really a good look. And it doesn't really mask your real fears about an IS, which are all too obvious...that Englands standing in the world falls even further without us, particularly in a post brexit scenario! 😉 We can all see the real reason, well a large percentage of us, loss of face and that seat at the big table scares the life out of ye! 😆

Yes, the numbers for an IS don't particularly stand up at the moment(neither does just about every western nation, debt and deficit is the natural order), but that's within the context of the UK and there's plenty of small countries that are viable. Scotland will be viable post IS.

Hoodwink is the perfect description. YS blatantly lied - lots of it in the BoD - with deliberate intent. And it worked, remember how confused people were on basic issues at the time, and they remain confused now. The same [s]lies[/s] misunderstanding have been repeated over the past few pages - unless you believe that the people who post those things are incapable of sensible thought, you have to conclude that they have indeed been hoodwinked,

You're good at hoodwinking yourself though, well capable of playing the status quo as something that will hold forever. it won't.

Similarly the BoD, as you call it, wasn't a blue print for a future scotland, as you like to put it forward as, it was a document of aspirations and a(n SNP) vision. About as much as you can ask for. Anyone with half a brain understands that nation building won't come from a manifesto.

it's all very sneerish at times

Nothing last forever Joe, we both know that. The important thing is that the future is better than the past. Hence, be careful what you wish for and what you believe. And don't let politicians get away with BS, just look at he current mess for evidence of that.

Edit for edit...no it was pages of unsupported facts and lies hat were easy to falsify. Hence, hood winking.....go and reread what they said about EU membership, how this is was untrue and how the same stuff keeps getting posted in here. "Dreams" is far too polite for the what it contained.

teamhurtmore - Member
The important thing is that the future is better than the past.

We'll agree there, but if that comes from the project of "complete the privatisation agenda" that we're well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i'll be astounded.

We'll see in 10 years or so..

And it doesn't really mask your real fears about an IS, which are all too obvious...that Englands standing in the world falls even further without us, particularly in a post brexit scenario!

Not really, Corbyn's Labour is more little Englander reducing significantly the projection of power and becoming more like a average small European country. The conservatives know they can't afford to project power like they used to and there aren't the people anymore and are now trying to do a China with development aid. The empire is long gone and the Scots who helped build it seem to be suffering collective amnesia.

The theme of the plucky Scot trying to reach a utopia denied by the

English (jack)boot

As the not so humourous petition shows, Scots nationalists are still loved by rUK

teamhurtmore - Member
Edit for edit...no it was pages of unsupported facts and lies hat were easy to falsify. Hence, hood winking.....go and reread what they said about EU membership, how this is was untrue and how the same stuff keeps getting posted in here. "Dreams" is far too polite for the what it contained.

maybe, but it was still just an snp manifesto though, not a blueprint.

big_n_daft - Member
The theme of the plucky Scot trying to reach a utopia denied by the
English (jack)boot
is patently untrue

I don't disagree with that statement at all. I don't subscribe to those views. I'm well aware lots of scots have been and are willing participants in the union.

We'll agree there, but if that comes from the project of "complete the privatisation agenda" that we're well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i'll be astounded.

When are the Scottish Government nationalising GP practices?

What new privatisation has been announced post Brexit?

Joe I fear that you may be among those who "may" have been hoodwinked.

Your view: not a blue print

The BoD view

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

QED. Thank you.

big_n_daft - Member
We'll agree there, but if that comes from the project of "complete the privatisation agenda" that we're well on the road to and just went into overdrive on with brexit, i'll be astounded.
When are the Scottish Government nationalising GP practices?

What new privatisation has been announced post Brexit?

I can only answer those questions in 10 or 15 years in the aftermath. I'm not privvy to plans.

But i'm sure on one thing, and that's that the people taking advantage of brexit, and the law making ability, won't be doing it for the common good.

teamhurtmore - Member
Joe I fear that you may be among those who "may" have been hoodwinked.

Your view: not a blue print

The BoD view

This guide lays out how [b]we [/b]can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

we = SNP. ie it's their manifesto.

Do you believe that it was a SNP document?

Did you consider the part of the sentence beyond the word we and what is may represent?

teamhurtmore - Member
Do you believe that it was a SNP document?

Did you consider the part of the sentence beyond the word we and what is may represent?

One thing this thread has shown me is really how unpleasant some unionists are with their sneering and condescension which allied to ignorance is a very nasty stance indeed.

Can you reword that?

No need, we both know what a blue print is and we both can read the introduction to the BoD.

teamhurtmore - Member
Can you reword that?
No need, we both know what a blue print is and we both can read the introduction to the BoD.

Any Scottish government post IS, barring a majority SNP government, would not beholden to the "BoD". To claim it would be is incredibly disingenuous.

Plus even at that, claiming anyone beholden to something written in 2014, forever, is nonsense.

One thing this thread has shown me is really how unpleasant some unionists are with their sneering and condescension which allied to ignorance is a very nasty stance indeed.

Ach, we've got our share of zoomers, I don't think we should be getting on our high horses.

It's the usual story, you only ever remember the total ****s.

I still can't figure out how many Scottish Unionists there actually are on here. A lot of the most vocal opposition to independence seems to be coming from folk living outside of Scotland.

Of all the daftness I've seen on STW the notion that TMH want's Scotland to remain part of the UK as otherwise the UK's standing in the world would be diminished is the daftest by far.

If not for Brexit the SNP would have some other excuse for Indy Ref 2 to be the main agenda or otherwise their loss 55/45, a reduced Holyrood majority and their poor track record of delivery of the promised utopia whilst in Government would be centre stage.

Aye indeed there are a few zoomers around but nowhere have I seen such unpleasantness allied to ignorance from the nationalist side.

I don't think there are any scots arguing the unionist cause on here - a couple of neutrals maybe.

What really gets to me is the total lack of understanding shown by some for example the confusion between SNP policy and the future direction of scotland. The sheer willful blindness to the fact many of us want to do things differently up here and the sneering condescension. The inability to understand that some of us value other things than money Fortunatly I only see THMs post when someone quotes them

jambalaya - Member
Of all the daftness I've seen on STW the notion that TMH want's Scotland to remain part of the UK as otherwise the UK's standing in the world would be diminished is the daftest by far.

So the "better together" line was a lie? 😆

Jamba - what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.

We were told that if we left the UK we would have no more influence on world affairs than Finland - we all looked at each other and said " sounds about right"

Any Scottish government post IS, barring a majority SNP government, would not beholden to the "BoD". To claim it would be is incredibly disingenuous. Plus even at that, claiming anyone beholden to something written in 2014, forever, is nonsense.

All very interesting but not really relevant.

You claim that the BoD was not a blueprint. The SNP/Scottish Government (you decide) stated the opposite and were quite explicit - we can all read what they said.

[b]This guide lays out[/b] how we can [b]complete[/b] Scotland’s journey to home rule and [b]become a fully independent country.[/b]

looks like a blue print, smells like a blue print, sounds like a blue print - but it isnt one, its a manefesto!!

So perhaps in the end, we agree. The document - including the sentence stating that is was indeed a guide/blueprint - was simple another lie to accompany much of the rest of the content. I am glad that square has been circled. We can retire in agreement 😉

The SNP/Scottish Government (you decide) stated the opposite and were quite explicit - we can all read what they said.

They could be explicit as they liked. Still doesn't make it a blueprint.

Can you show me the law they passed saying they must follow that book to the letter? ([i][b][u]If[/u][/b][/i] they gained power post IS).

In reality the "BoD" was a campaign tool, nothing more. And expensive one yes, but no different to the nonsense that fall through your door at every election/referendum.

So, yes, perhaps we do agree. (you know if no fan of the SNP anyhow.)

Of course not.

But we agree then - the words they used including...

This guide lays out how we can complete Scotland’s journey to home rule and become a fully independent country.

...were not to be believed or taken at face value. It was indeed a book of false dreams with no legal or factual basis. Bravo!

Sleep well - I have a bloody student essay to review now 🙁

btw the word "guide" can be interpreted a few ways. You're only allowing one definition. Quelle suprise, yet more deceit from yourself, need to watch that old chap, in danger of becoming a habit you may struggle to shake! 😆

I'm pretty sure there was to be an election prior to actual independence to allow different manifestos to be produced and for people to chose. I might just have imagined that though and I can't be arsed to Google.

There was KM - because of the timing. this is another issue the unionists her don't get.

Joe - c'mon you are above swerving!! Dont debase yourself to the level of others 😉

The number of pages and level of pretend detail make it very clear what type of guide they pretended it to be. An alternative would not have extended beyond a page or two. Need to watch that young man, in danger of becoming a habit. Leave that to others who have never attempted to shake it.

Still doesn't negate the fact that anything in it's pages relied on subsequent governments implementing them. A highly unlikely scenario. You'd need to be completely unaware of the transience of governments and political parties to believe otherwise. Many are but unfortunately that's what politics thrives on, the ignorance of the masses.

teamhurtmore - Member
Joe - c'mon you are above swerving!! Dont debase yourself to the level of others

btw not body swerving at all, i just reckon the use of the word "guide", by the SNP lawyers, would have been deliberate due to it's ambiguity.

Still doesn't negate the fact that anything in it's pages relied on subsequent governments implementing them. A highly unlikely scenario.

Agreed - the plans were implausible. The blue print couldnt be implement by design.

Still hasn't stopped folk repeating the falsehoods. I think the correct term for that is "ignorance" but it seems a little unkind. Hoodwinked is more forgiving!!

btw not body swerving at all, i just reckon the use of the word "guide", by the SNP lawyers, would have been deliberate due to it's ambiguity.

"No really". 😉 As above, the page count indicates otherwise.

You'd need to be completely unaware of the transience of governments and political parties to believe otherwise.

I have already noted yS place at the birthplace of modern post truth politics. We agree again.

teamhurtmore - Member

You'd need to be completely unaware of the transience of governments and political parties to believe otherwise.
I have already noted yS place at the birthplace of modern post truth politics. We agree again.

A lot of the most vocal opposition to independence seems to be coming from folk living outside of Scotland.

To misquote Ben from earlier Bruce:

Here's a radical thought - maybe I argued against [s]voted for [/s]independence because I thought it would be a good thing for everyone in Scotland, not me personally?

Not everyone does it for self-interest!! [thanks ben 😉 ]

bullshit is timeless and is more or less a constant!

Agreed which is why indy threads are comedy gold - never fail to deliver. A constant flow...

(phew essay review done, thx for the company/distraction. More entertaining than the essay!}

Don't really see it as any different to UK politics tbh, well i do, i think it's slightly less sophisticated. But i guess you need to fight bullshit (better together) with bullshit.

We may not always agree, but fun as always! 😉 glad to be a distraction!

Don't really see it as any different to UK politics tbh, well i do, i think it's slightly less sophisticated.

and/or more deliberately deceitful.

We may not always agree, but fun as always!

Indeed. A demain!!

if you are struggling to sleep. open up the BoD at pages xvi-xviii and then type "this is not a blueprint" with a straight face 😉

here's a teaser

Part four sets out the timescale and process for Scotland to become an independent country following a Yes vote in the referendum. It describes the transition that will take place and the negotiations that will be required on assets and liabilities, and to ensure continued delivery of public services. It also sets out the opportunities for a modern democracy with our own written constitution and describes how equality and human rights will be protected and promoted on independence. Finally, in Part five we answer detailed questions we have been asked about independence.

Part four was hilarious

- what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.

Lol at the myopia of the converted

What really gets to me is the total lack of understanding shown by some for example the confusion between SNP policy and the future direction of scotland. The sheer willful blindness to the fact many of us want to do things differently up here and the sneering condescension. The inability to understand that some of us value other things than money

Ah, the plucky Scots crushed under the

English (Jack)boot

I'm glad to know how you view my community with such sneering disdainful condescension

There were pages and pages devoted to the loss of membership of the EU.It seemed to be a big stick to beat the indy movement with, strange how it isn't such a big deal now.

Big and daft - what reason then for such a strong desire to hold onto scotland?

big_n_daft - Member
'...English (Jack)boot'
I'm glad to know how you view my community with such sneering disdainful condescension

He should have called it the Westminster jackboot.

We're well aware that the regions in England also suffer under it.

Jamba - what other reason is for the English Unionists to want to hold on to scotland? Its prestige or the loss of money.

Personally speaking its primarily due to a sense of pride in the UK being made up of a number of diverse regions and nations. Each add something to make the whole a greater and more interesting country. All under a single national government. Financially the rest of the UK would be worse off as we wod have to pay for same diplomatic service, civil service and military for example with 55m people rather than 60m. Both of these reasons I posted 3 years ago when we started discussing it.

Personally speaking its primarily due to a sense of pride in the UK being made up of a number of diverse regions and nations

Haha f'in irony.

I have a sense of pride in belonging to a Europe made up of a number of diverse smaller countries, but screw that eh Jam?

Grr.

Why all the talk of "holding on to" - sounds very colonial, imperialist to me

Being part of a wider union brings very obvious social and economic benefits to [b]ALL PARTIES[/b] in contrast to isolationism, protectionism and national narrow mindedness. Citizens enjoy greater freedoms to exercise their liberty, to maximise their opportunities while reducing their risks (physical, social, economic.) Benefits accrue from the positive economic (yes you cant ignore it) benefits that result from greater and easier levels of trade and investment. Trade between US and Canada is >40% lower than it would be in the absence of national borders. For a country like Scotland, whose main trading partner is the rUK, the only logical structure to purse is within a union.

Of course where the conditions for an optimum currency union exist (the UK) as opposed to do not exist (the EU), greater benefits still arise from the same freedoms but also the ability to have monetary and fiscal union both of which do (frustratingly for some) require a degree of political union. In that scenario, when surpluses build up in one area (eg, that horrible SE of England) [b]there is a mechanism and a willingness to recycle those surpluses to the regions in deficit. [/b]This is in stark contrast to the EU where neither the mechanism not the willingness exists and where the democratic deficit is at its highest. For those of a LW persuasion who remain, what's the word; "ignorant" of all this the following is a good read and written from a LW perspective and with direct experience of what is involved.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weak-Suffer-What-They-Must/dp/1568585047

"A titanic battle is being waged for Europe s integrity and soul, with the forces of reason and humanism losing out to growing irrationality, authoritarianism, and malice, promoting inequality and austerity. The whole world has a stake in a victory for rationality, liberty, democracy, and humanism."

How myopic or ignorant of current affairs does one have to be to swap one of the most successful unions in political and economic history, with a working (if occasionally flawed) system for recycling money between surplus and deficit reasons and with high levels of devolved power (de facto federalism according to some) for a broken version, that condemns the poor to suffer, wages to decline, unemployment to skyrocket, and inequality to rise and with an obvious democratic deficit at heart.

So the answer: rationality, liberty, democracy, and humanism

@THm This union has over the years provided me with an economic and industrial policy that has stripped my country of any industrial base, without any thought for the populations long term future. It has provided an immigration policy which restricts immigration when my country needs more immigration. The union also offers an undevolved national broadcaster which seems unable to provide news coverage that reflects Scottish politics accurately . My "local" council is 2.5 hours drive away, where my area is represented by 7 out of 80 odd councillors(are you listening snp) and my already vast Westminster constituency is about to increase in size again. It is vital that people should have a real say in national and local decision making and feel that their views are listened to and respected. So the answer is rationality, liberty, and democracy ..for me humanism or at least the humanist association shares too many of the aspects of the other religions.
Thanks for the addition to my already lengthy reading list though

You forgot to mention Thatcher gordi - apparently she singlehandedly destoyred Scotland's industrial base.

@THm This union has over the years provided me with an economic and industrial policy that has stripped my country of any industrial base, without any thought for the populations long term future.

This is an attractive narrative albeit one that is divorced from reality. The erosion of Scotlands' industrial bases is the result of very different structural and cyclical drivers. But its easier to blame Westminster admittedly.

As we all know, there is a balance to be achieved. Personally I am a great advocate of develoved power and much smaller levels of central government. However, that is a world away from advocating national self harm on a catastrophic scale. One example of this is enough for the time being.

Both of Varoufakis' books are interesting. The ne I have linked to is a great historical perspective but ultimately falls a little short on focusing on why the poor suffer. This is a key element of his thesis but is lost in too much history IMO. Still only takes a day or so to read as it is well written

[url= http://ukandeu.ac.uk/voice-and-partnership-the-bottom-line-for-scotland-on-brexit/ ]Professor Cram on the EU and on voices being heard[/url]

It has provided an immigration policy which restricts immigration when my country needs more immigration.

I would be asking myself why is immigration to Scotland so much lower than rUK especially outside of the central belt. There isn't a shortage of people coming into the UK, plenty settle in the north of England, what makes Scotland so unattractive compared to Oldham for example?

Could be many things Big n Daft. The situation may well be different in some parts of Scotland, over all we need to increase the working age population. We could do better at providing secure and well paid employment, if we had power over all economic and industrial policy

big_n_daft
I would be asking myself why is immigration to Scotland so much lower than rUK especially outside of the central belt. There isn't a shortage of people coming into the UK, plenty settle in the north of England, what makes Scotland so unattractive compared to Oldham for example?

It's because we're all wild racists up here & turn them back at the border with flaming torches & pitchforks.

HTH

Or maybe they don't fancy the weather.

what makes Scotland so unattractive compared to Oldham for example?

It's still quite a lot further from everywhere else, and far fewer people so fewer businesses in general.

Don't forget the midges.

The longer Scotland stays in the Union, the more reliant on the other partners we will become. Policies of the UK Government are such that this will not change in the foreseeable. Scotland faces difficulties whether in the Union or not. There is an argument that if we stay in the Union then others can and will pick up the tab in the future. That is not a vision for our country I would sign up to. I would much rather make a break and implement the full range of policies that directly meet our needs as opposed to some of the policies that the power over has been devolved.

It's still quite a lot further from everywhere else

No, Scotland is in exactly the right place - it's everywhere else that's too far away 😀

The longer Scotland stays in the Union, the more reliant on the other partners we will become.

Yes - and this'll be resented by both sides. Even though it's not true, the idea that English taxpayers are subsidising Scots is a pervasive one. We're not really wanted in this Union.

Yes - and this'll be resented by both sides. Even though it's not true, the idea that English taxpayers are subsidising Scots is a pervasive one. We're not really wanted in this Union.

A vocal minority on this thread seem to be the exception.

Of course there's a simple, obvious answer, and it's not Scottish independence.

England should leave the UK.

That way Scotland, NI, Gibraltar etc will stay in the EU as we want. England can be free of EU interference as it wants, and as a bonus also free of us freeloading Scots.

It makes perfect sense.

We could do better at providing secure and well paid employment, if we had power over all economic and industrial policy

And what exact actions would you propose? I have seen lots of "we need powers over this and powers over that" but no details of legislation or policy. Previous attempts to encourage growth outwith the southeast have not done too well, so what would you do differently?

There is a big gap between identifying something that needs fixed and implementing steps to actually fix it. Instead of simply highlighting what is wrong, could you suggest details of how it can be improved?

Even though it's not true, the idea that English taxpayers are subsidising Scots is a pervasive one.

Subsidise might not be the right word, but there is a "fiscal transfer" (the SNP words, not mine) into Scotland (see GERS for details). Even the SNP have said that full fiscal autonomy couldn't take place without "fiscal balancing" to replace Barnett.

Money has flowed in both directions historically. Today, and for the forseeable future, Scotland is a financial net beneficiary. Basically London is supporting the UK (but London probably couldn't be London without the rest of the UK so quid pro quo).

England should leave the UK.

I've been saying this for a long time. It would be the decent thing to do.

But, as in the case of Scotland that would be against the democratic wishes of the people km - #tartantotalitarianism

Surely it would just be an extension of Brexit? Get rid of migrants claiming benefits and putting pressure on the English NHS,and that's before we look at the financial savings. All the same arguments used by Brexit crowd. I am surprised Jamby isn't painting the side of a bus already.

How obsessed with jambas are you duckie? First post in the morning, in the afternoon......

A lot less than you are with the SNP!

Very true - I was chatting with Jambas earlier - the SNP are definitely far funnier, so I have made the correct choice 😉

Aww poor wee THM; still sore after the "angry nats" ganged up on you? 😀 "Lordsneeralot" How obsessed with [b]me[/b] are you? To the point of following me around the whole forum using the word sweaty at every opportunity in an attempt to noise me up...until they banned you! Every post I make,you are in there, see also point above about you and the SNP and for that matter Thatcher as you keep reminding people they have forgotten to mention her.

Subsidise might not be the right word, but there is a "fiscal transfer" (the SNP words, not mine) into Scotland (see GERS for details).

Only in that borrowing is taken out in our name by the Westminster government, and then that money transferred to Scotland.

Aww poor wee THM

Not sneering are you duckie?

Not sore - its amusing when people line up to make unsubstantiated remarks on a daily basis. Why do you think this thread keeps going?

The beauty of more than one screen, means you can keep the comedy channel open and still do other things. Its marvellous.

Only in that borrowing is taken out in our name by the Westminster government, and then that money transferred to Scotland.

Imagine what would happen if that wasnt the case?

A genuine concern for your bruised ego THM.

Not sore - its amusing when people line up to make unsubstantiated remarks on a daily basis. Why do you think this thread keeps going?

But I see it is fine.

teamhurtmore
Imagine what would happen if that wasnt the case?

I know, we'd probably have to stop sending so much to westminster & they'd have to borrow even more to subsidise the rest too...

you are too kind duckie, honestly, but thanks anyway