Anyway, I stand by my previous comment, descending to call someone a troll because you don’t like what they are asking is not debate. We do have obvious trolls on the forum from time to time BnD is not one of them.
Tbf b&d is just asking the same question over & over again, because he knows no one has an answer
And it's a good question, because it matters, the 2014 plan to transition from. £ slowly was shot down by Westminster,
SNP talking about their own reserve Bank now, which is probably oy way, but not easy & no real details so far
The Brexit analogies are fair in a sense, but a lot has changed since 2014, not least brexit -
If unionists think banging on & on about technicalities of currency whilst ignoring what Johnsons hard brexit & endless broken promises means for Scotland then they've not learnt anything from the Brexit ref
who puts words in my mouth and then uses those words to condemn
What words have I put in your mouth? I am careful to quote accurately but anyone can make an error and I am happy to recognise any where I have not used the words you posted
The only condemnation is that the iS campaign looks, smells, and uses the same tactics as another rather crappy referendum campaign not too long ago. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you can understand why people think it's a duck
I can understand why being called the Edinburgh Michael Gove stings a bit and could be argued to be impolite. I do feel there is a post retirement place for you in Scottish politics and you would have a lot to (positively) contribute.
Nope you’re trolling under the guise of raising pertinent points
I take the point that the delivery needs work, the relevance of the points still stands
Then we get the border issue. On day one of independence the EU (unless iS can quickly negotiate a deal) will be deemed by the EU as a third country for rules of origin purposes which then impacts the ability of rUK manufacturers to use iS parts as they need to achieve 55% by value of rUK origin to avoid tariffs. Join the EU and then the EU insist on a single market border between England and Scotland
Brexit has shown that the EU can be flexible on this, certainly during offering a transition period, fair enough to say that it's something no on can nail down until its agreed and as you point out this won't be instant
No anti English sentiment?
How many times have the phrases “little England” or “little Englander” been posted by iS campaigners on this thread, never mind the tropes about despite having nearly proportionately double the number of immigrants compared to Scotland, England is some xenophobic hell hole. But challenge the iS campaigners on this and there is a cognitive dissonance.
You are conflating anti Tory/Brexiteer with anti English, the tories are pushing ever harder to the right & I can't see Labour making a dent in their popularity any time soon, STILL at 40% popularity despite a world beating mishandling of COVID!
Maybe the unionist campaign should be centred on how “not as crap as they say” England (not Wales they are already OK as they aren’t English) England is and how many Scots have made their home here. After all the Scots living in England wouldn’t chose to live in a xenophobic hell hole would they.
I think they moved for the weather, well my uncle did (also to escape his ex)
In case it got missed at the page turn
We’re actually finding it quite frustrating as from our perspective this is panning out exactly like Brexit,
Its really nothing like brexit as there was a detailed plan last time which i am sure will be updated in plenty of time. No empty slogans nor lies nor manipulation
What are you finding frustrating and / or have not had answers to? I’ll attempt to answer them.
Comparison with Vote Leave is pretty daft tho
They actually did drive around a bus with massive lies on the side, & did the whole turkey thing, coordinated with farage:
Goves Turkey claims & Farage migrant poster were on same day & obviously coordinated
They made experts the enemies of the people
Its fairly insulting to equate TJ with Gove
And those kind of insults will bring no one to unionism
Which is completely legitimate, unionists aren’t trying to fundamentally change the structure of our country.
Which would be a fair point if it wasn't for the fact that the Union as we have known it for the last 40 years came to an end at the beginning of this month.
Unionists can no longer claim to be the 'safe' or 'continuity' option because it will take at least 10 years for the UK to figure out it's place and the relationship it wants with the rest of the world.
In actual fact, independence offers a return to what we already know, ie having close ties to Europe either as a full EU member or as an EFTA member.
Scotland knows where it wants to end up, England doesn't. We're not even asking for a detailed plan, we just want to know what the hell England wants.
TJ, fair response and glad you're happy to continue the conversation, I'm not intending to offend.
What are you finding frustrating and / or have not had answers to?
Good question, a lot of the iS reasoning seems to be around getting away from Westminster (which I get, I think many of the more sane people south of the border would like to jettison the idiots, Gove and Johnson in particular). It seems to me there is a conflating of getting away from Westminster dominance with Scotland doing better than it currently does and I can't see it. Of course Scotland will be able to make it's own decisions if independent, but that's subject to lots more outside pressures you can't control, the same fallacy of the Brexiteers taking back control in a global world, if you want to play by with others you can't have everything your own way. If a country as large as the UK is finding this I'm sure a smaller independent country the size of Scotland will have even less clout.
I'm also struggling with the long term prosperity of Scotland, will the economy implode after independence, doubt it, will it grow, I can't see how. Scotland is geographically at an extreme of Europe surrounded by sea. If it was part of the main land mass I could see more opportunities.
Industry in Scotland isn't massive, oil is slowly on it's way out and not a finite resource, most of Scotland's trade is with rUK.
The cost of independence (fiscally and politically) is going to be massive, will any potential gains net that off over the next 20 years.
I fully get that Scotland has been shafted by Westminster, so have we all, I just don't see independence as being the answer to the current situation.
I think they moved for the weather,
It wasn't to Oldham then. Devon is subtropical in comparison
You are conflating anti Tory/Brexiteer with anti English, the tories are pushing ever harder to the right & I can’t see Labour making a dent in their popularity any time soon, STILL at 40% popularity despite a world beating mishandling of COVID!
Labour need to do better but it's hard to judge the level to go out in a national crisis so they have my sympathy. iS campaigners need to stop reading the daily mail to find something to be angry about that way they might realise they are playing into the outrage ping pong that it thrives on. That way they might stop using tropes which sow division, create false paradigms and other the people of England
a lot of the iS reasoning seems to be around getting away from Westminster
Its about self determination. a slightly different thing. Its about having the ability to do what we want - to be a modern social democracy. Its a positive thing of wanting to movge towards something not away from something
If a country as large as the UK is finding this I’m sure a smaller independent country the size of Scotland will have even less clout.
We look to flourishing modern social democracies like finland, sweeden, the netherlands. they seem to be managing fine. Of course being a part of a larger union the EU gives strength. We don't want to be billy big baws
At the last ref there was an attempt by the unionists to say iScotland would have no more influence than finland. We all looked at each other and said " seems about right" that attack got no traction at all
I fully get that Scotland has been shafted by Westminster, so have we all, I just don’t see independence as being the answer to the current situation.
Why is scotland unable to flourish when finland, sweeden and Ireland can? We have a wealth of advatages they do not.
Independence would allow scotland to have fiscal policies aligned to our needs not the needs of london. It would allow us to have immigration policies to suit. It would alloow us to invest in alternative energy where we still have the potential to be a world leader despite a wasted decade
The “transitional pound” for EU membership is a “unicorn”, it’s either the Euro (perfectly sound strategy), a Scottish currency ( perfectly sound strategy) or another EU member currency (less than convinced). The Euro and Scottish currency come with issues but do enable EU membership, one issue is that there will be a transition which takes time and that needs to be embedded before EU membership.
This is perhaps one of the key issues, that has not been addressed appropriately. Due to the harsh criticism of Brexit by Scotland, you would expect a much more detailed and thought out plan.
On another note, I love the UK, I have lived in both Scotland and England (no live in England), and loved it there. I have seen the damage that a separatist movement can do to a region (in Spain), both economically and socially, hence I am extremely cynical of them. There always seems to be a focus on now and the desired result after separation, however there never seems to be any consideration of the in between stages, and how people's livelihoods will be affected.
a lot of the iS reasoning seems to be around getting away from Westminster (which I get, I think many of the more sane people south of the border would like to jettison the idiots, Gove and Johnson in particular).
I think what people mean when they say get away from Westminster is not so much to get away from the current crop but more to get away from the fundamentally undemocratic system that the UK has.
A common response to that is to say, 'but millions of people in the whole of the UK are in the same situation' and I'd agree that's true. They'll have to figure that out on their own I'm afraid. Perhaps the breakup of the Union will be enough to do that but I doubt it.
Of course Scotland will be able to make it’s own decisions if independent, but that’s subject to lots more outside pressures you can’t control, the same fallacy of the Brexiteers taking back control in a global world, if you want to play by with others you can’t have everything your own way. If a country as large as the UK is finding this I’m sure a smaller independent country the size of Scotland will have even less clout.
I don't think you'll find many indy suporters on here who don't understand that in order to have an open relationship with other countries you have to give up part of your sovereignty. The clout argument I hear time and time again but I really don't understand it. If you ask the Scottish fishermen how much good the UK's clout is doing them I doubt you'll get a positive answer.
All being part of a big country means is that you have more clout to improve the lot of the average inhabitant. Scotland is very different in terms of geography and population than the rest of the UK so our clout is seldom used to benefit us.
I'm aware of the issues in Catalonia, Baboonz, I worked there and experienced them first hand remember.
If you make the comparison with Scotland. If Nicola organises a referendum against the wishes of London do you think that jailing her and her party members for 15 years would be the best response. Or would it just throw fuel on the nationalist fire.
You talk about a "coup" which isn't really appropriate language for what happened unless you're a fervent Madrid supporter.
Anyhow, as already stated, you're going to need more than vitriol to convince me the Spanish response to an idependant Scotland would be anything significant enough to block EU membership.
In actual fact, independence offers a return to what we already know, ie having close ties to Europe either as a full EU member or as an EFTA member.
Scotland knows where it wants to end up,
I really don't think it does, the border issue is massively complex, EU membership arguably makes it worse. Brexit proper is not yet a month old so the issue hasn't been debated in any depth and the third country, EU single market border double whammy post independence will loom large in any campaign
This is perhaps one of the key issues, that has not been addressed appropriately. Due to the harsh criticism of Brexit by Scotland, you would expect a much more detailed and thought out plan.
Sure, tell us what the EU is going to say when Scotland says, 'We'd like to join you, please?' and we can give you the plan.
If you can't then it's a bit unfair to expect us to be clairvoyant, isn't it?
I really don’t think it does,
Scotland wants to be a small country with close ties to Europe.
What you described are not examples of not knowing what it wants, they are examples of obstacles to getting there.
They aren't to be dismissed but they are problems to be solved on the way to an achievable goal.
Now, can you tell me what England wants?
Due to the harsh criticism of Brexit by Scotland, you would expect a much more detailed and thought out plan.
I linked above to the plan from last time. I would expect a better one this time. A lot of able people put a lot of work into that detailed plan. yes it had holes in it and yes there are imponderables but remember this is only the beginning of the campaign and I will bet my house we see a very detailed well thought thru plan to make our minds up about
I do hope they have a better answer on the money tho. that was the main weakness with the last plan
One issue with all this debate and why I ask were people live is given the huge bias in the press its actually almost impossible for people outside of Scotland to even see glimpses of the positive case - hence the nonsense about there was no plan - there was it just was never seen outside of Scotland. Nor was the level of informed debate that we had up here seen outside of Scotland
Read the nationl. Take a huge pinch of salt with it but consider it not to be neutral but to be the other side of the debate to that you see down south. Check out common weal for another take on it
https://commonweal.scot/
If you make the comparison with Scotland. If Nicola organises a referendum against the wishes of London do you think that jailing her and her party members for 15 years would be the best response. Or would it just throw fuel on the nationalist fire.
In the context of Spain? yes. They organised an illegal referendum and then claimed independence, 15 years seems to little to the damage they did. Hence why the EU told them to go do one. It hasn't even been a century since the last civil war, yet asshats like them are okay to stir up shit like that. I dislike Madrid's economic management as much as the Catalans or more, but two wrongs don't make a right. Tbh, this issue(Catalunya that is) makes my blood boil, and probably should leave it as that.
I'll clarify, I don't think there will be a veto, but I do think the fast track will not be facilitated. If Scotland does it through brute force like Catalunya tried, then there will be resistance from Spain, and maybe even other countries that have similar separated movements. It's not vitrol, its a fact, politicians in Spain have been flip-flopping on this issue.
Now, can you tell me what England wants?
A good kick up the arse? Maybe 'needs' is a better word than 'wants'.
Its about self determination. a slightly different thing. Its about having the ability to do what we want
Ok, I suppose that's the issue I have, will you be able to do what you want post independence? I'm cynical of all politicians, every now and then we have a bit a of jump forward, NHS for example, but generally they all seem to be incapable of moving forward.
Fair point about not wanting to be Billy Big Baws, rUK could do with a bit more humility as well. I'll also accept that the independence movement may not be as arrogant and blinkered as the Brexit movement.
f you ask the Scottish fishermen how much good the UK’s clout is doing them
I don't think fishermen anywhere have particularly coherent opinions, most seem to want to catch as much fish as they can until the stocks run out, stop anyone else fishing in 'their' waters and selling where ever they want, real cake and eat it stuff.
Scotland is very different in terms of geography and population than the rest of the UK
Really? Ok the Highlands and Islands are pretty different but seeing as around two thirds of the population is in the central belt which is pretty similar to much of the UK, lowland, urban, I'm not seeing a big difference.
Sure, tell us what the EU is going to say when Scotland says, ‘We’d like to join you, please?’ and we can give you the plan.
If you can’t then it’s a bit unfair to expect us to be clairvoyant, isn’t it?
I'll take a guess, after the posturing they will say: "sure let me see your finances". To which they will show that they have achieved.... taking the following actions...
Tbh, this issue(Catalunya that is) makes my blood boil,
Yeah, every time I think about the people getting the shit kicked out of them and the scumbag cowards who were cheering from the sidelines my blood starts to boil too.
I'm sure you weren't one of the ones celebrating scenes like these though?
Really? Ok the Highlands and Islands are pretty different but seeing as around two thirds of the population is in the central belt which is pretty similar to much of the UK, lowland, urban, I’m not seeing a big difference.
Just out of interest, where in Scotland have you lived and where in England have you lived. I've lived in Glasgow and in Surrey and the differences are stark.
Ok, I suppose that’s the issue I have, will you be able to do what you want post independence?
We will be able to try whereas now we cannot even do that. for example we will be able to raise money to invest as all governments do. We will be able to invest in renewables to a much greater extent without having the prohibitive costs of joining these renewables to the national grid
We will be able to rejig our tax and benefits system to make it fit for the 21st century
We will be able to rejoin the biggest multinational co operative system in the world - the EU with all the benefits that brings.
Most importantly we will be able to make democratic decisions by the people of Scotland for the people of Scotland.
Just out of interest, where in Scotland have you lived and where in England have you lived. I’ve lived in Glasgow and in Surrey and the differences are stark
I have lived in Glasgow, Edinburgh, a bit in Fife, Liverpool, London and Birmingham area. I found much more more difference between North and South of England, that between average England and average Scotland. In fact, Glasgow seemed like every other industrial city in the UK.
Bruce, Surrey is hardly representative of the rUK. I've travelled all over the UK and I can't say what I've seen of the central belt is much different to the M62 corridor, West Midlands, South Wales etc.
I would agree the central belt is similar in some ways to the m62 corridor - but the m62 corridor is one end of the english spectrum, the central belt is the opposite end of the Scottish spectrum and even then its far less homogeneous
Bruce, Surrey is hardly representative of the rUK. I’ve travelled all over the UK and I can’t say what I’ve seen of the central belt is much different to the M62 corridor, West Midlands, South Wales etc.
If we're talking about where we've traveled rather than just where we've lived then I have far more extensive experience from all across the UK. I don't really think it counts for much though as I don't believe you really know an area until you've paid tax there.
A fair proportion of the Scottish population live in the central belt. Likewise, a fair proportion of the English population live south of the Watford gap. South of the Watford gap and the Central belt of Glasgow are probably equivalent for Scotland and England. The North of England and the Highlands and Islands are equivalent. if you compare the North of England with the Central belt you will probably find a lot of similarities but also some key differences (look the vote percentage for Brexit as an example).
You have to compare like with like so if you compare the Central Belt and south of the Watford gap and you compare the North of England and the Highlands and Islands you'll find we are completely different countries.
Its about self determination. a slightly different thing. Its about having the ability to do what we want – to be a modern social democracy. Its a positive thing of wanting to movge towards something not away from something
Genuine question. You stated in an earlier post that you also want to be in the EU. Surely then this would compromise your ideal? Self determination you would not be in total control of, we couldn't do what we wanted due to having to adhere to prescribed EU law? Social democracy, yes the SNP lean this way, but in an independent Scotland they may not be in governance, so the leanings of that government would be the political landscape in which we would live/work. You are moving away from Westminster and heading into the unknown, not a ready made utopian country. Just my observations.
I have lived in Glasgow, Edinburgh, a bit in Fife, Liverpool, London and Birmingham area.
And Spain?
Self determination you would not be in total control of, we couldn’t do what we wanted due to having to adhere to prescribed EU law?
I'm not sure how far back you've read but already today I've said that you won't find many indy supporters on here (or possibly anywhere else) who don't understand that in order to be an open country you have to sacrifice some sovereignty.
I've said this at least once today and it's been said by many people many many times in this thread.
Not trying to have a go, it just feels like we have to keep repeating the same points over and over again.
actually nah
tjagain
Full Member
Ok, I suppose that’s the issue I have, will you be able to do what you want post independence?We will be able to try whereas now we cannot even do that. for example we will be able to raise money to invest as all governments do. We will be able to invest in renewables to a much greater extent without having the prohibitive costs of joining these renewables to the national grid
We will be able to rejig our tax and benefits system to make it fit for the 21st century
We will be able to rejoin the biggest multinational co operative system in the world – the EU with all the benefits that brings.
Most importantly we will be able to make democratic decisions by the people of Scotland for the people of Scotland.
You always focus on the positive, bit too much so tbh.
I'll also be able to call the scottish government of the day c***s, without having to direct my ire in 2 directions! 😆
Lotto - as bruce Wee says - and in the EU we get a say. In the UK we do not. an EU directive that went against the interests of the scottish people we could veto and / or could argue against and that argument would be heard. If Westminster passes a law that is against the interests of the Scottish people that is it. We have no say.
Social democracy, yes the SNP lean this way, but in an independent Scotland they may not be in governance,
Long term the SNP will split I am sure and be no more. I would expect 20 years into the future Scotland will a significant realignment of the parties
Remember we elect under PR here
I would expect coalitions mainly and an undisturbed social democratic consensus like Germany - where the Christian democrats while right of centre do not wish to disturb the social democratic norms and do not want to tear up the social democratic consensus
However Scotland votes 70 - 80 % for social democratic parties and has done so since the 50s so i can be pretty sure that the future of Scotland would be broadly social democratic. Remember UKIP and other hard right groupings get almost zero traction. Scottish tories have to attempt to distance themselves from Westminster ones to gain any traction and the great Troy revival took them to 28% of the vote and the polls for the next Holyrood election take that down to 15 - 20%
given all that and given the tendency of PR systems to produce minority governments or coalitions then I am pretty sure a social democratic consensus will remain with some time a centre right party having some power but never a hard right party like the tories since the 70s
seosamh77
You would be able to vote for a centre right party like the German christian democrats because I am sure such a party will arise out of the ashes of the tories and the hunting shootin fishin tendency from the SNP
if thats what you want of course!
🙂
centre right. 😆
And Spain?
That's where I grew up, but as far as I know Spain is not in the UK. Yes I've moved too much, I know.
A fair proportion of the Scottish population live in the central belt. Likewise, a fair proportion of the English population live south of the Watford gap.
Now that's not a direct comparison, around 9 million live in the south east, south of Watford gap as you put it, about a sixth rUK, around 4 million live in the central belt, two thirds.
A good chunk of people living in London don't exactly lie the south east life style either.
Anyway, nice to see the thread heading back towards debate rather than name calling, thank you all, maybe we do have a future together 😉
I certainly hope so.
So you've put yourself firmly in one camp on the Catalan issue, baboonz. And then argue against people in the UK doing the same.
I worked in a French factory for five years where many of the workers were descendants of those who fled over border in 38, including those who were interned in the Camp de Gurs. Flight across the border continued through the Franco years. I have several neighbours of Spanish origin.
When I worked in Barcellon I was in the uncomfortable position of being in a room with five Madrillanos and four Catalans, sometimes you learn things the hard way.
It would be nice if perople could just get along but if you take the piss out of a population for too long they rebel. Westminster has been taking the piss out of Scotland for years. I understand Scottish nationalism as I understand the Catalans. It would be nice if the Madrid and Westminster stopped the provocation and listened, but they don't. There are many parallels and it would be great if the nationalists didn't fell the need for independance but Madrid and London seem intent on fueling the nationalist fires.
Now that’s not a direct comparison,
True, but when you've got 5 million living in one country and 55 million living in another getting exact comparisons is always going to be difficult.
Saying that, when you've got a country with a population of 5 million and one with a population of 55 million an easy Union was never really on the cards.
Bruce that's not the point I was making, the central belt is fairly representative of Scotland, which as we have established is fairly similar to parts of the run. The South East of England is a much smaller proportion of rUk. Point being the central belt is pretty to similar to average rUk, the South East is more of an outlier in the same way the Highlands are in Scotland.
Bottom line is geographically and demographically Scotland and rUk are pretty similar.
I don't think paying tax somewhere is any indication of how well someone does or doesn't know a region.
the central belt really is not representative of Scotland and both geographically the two countries are quite different.
Calling Scotland a region?
We will be able to invest in renewables to a much greater extent without having the prohibitive costs of joining these renewables to the national grid
Sorry but it's tripe, you would have to connect to a grid for security of supply for general use, industries can and do operate off grid. Connecting renewables to either gas or electricity grids anywhere near population is not prohibitive. Out in the sticks then scale matters and issues can arise such as on Orkney
https://www.desmog.co.uk/2019/03/10/Orkney-Energy-Islands-Penalised-Too-Clean-Too-Soon
But if you aren't proposing to connect to a grid who are you supplying?
I don’t think paying tax somewhere is any indication of how well someone does or doesn’t know a region.
It's a figure of speech but I do think you have to have rented or bought accommodation, had a job or spent time trying to find a job, and joined some sort of local groups to say you know a place.
I'm not even sure if going to university in a town counts as knowing it since it's easy to get caught up in the university bubble. It probably depends on how much time you spend interacting with people who don't go to university.
I lived in quite a few different countries and different places in the UK and often I've found after a year or so my initial reactions to a place can turn out to be completely wrong.
But qualifying how much difference there is between countries and regions through anecdotes is pretty much impossible. The only true test is who they vote for. I think for many years Scotland and the North of England were broadly similar but you only have to look at the last few election results to see that is definitely no longer the case.
and in the EU we get a say. In the UK we do not. an EU directive that went against the interests of the scottish people we could veto and / or could argue against and that argument would be heard. If Westminster passes a law that is against the interests of the Scottish people that is it. We have no say.
As I understand it the veto only applies to treaty negotiations (happy to be corrected). The EU parliament only discusses legislation brought forward by the EU Commission. Scotland has proportionately more MPs at Westminster than it would have in the EU parliament (Ireland for example has 13 out of 705). Scotland at Westminster 59 out of 650.
You have plenty of say and indeed Scots (including those representing Scottish constituencies) have occupied the great offices of state including PM.
Scotland has proportionately more MPs at Westminster than it would have in the EU parliament (Ireland for example has 13 out of 705). Scotland at Westminster 59 out of 650.
The crucial difference is that the EU Parliament does not use the FPTP system so no one group or country is going to able to push through it's agenda unless it can persuade other groups to support it.
Ireland might only have 13 MEPs, and if it is those 13 MEPs against the other 692 then they would quite rightly lose the vote. However, it will likely be that other countries and groups within the Parliament support them or they can be persuaded by horse trading.
Even if Scotland sends 59 SNP MPs to Westminster it will make absolutely no difference because of FPTP. The UK is at it's core undemocratic.
You have plenty of say and indeed Scots (including those representing Scottish constituencies) have occupied the great offices of state including PM.
My question to that would be, so what? It's not a game. We don't celebrate because someone close to our geographic location does well. The only important thing is are your interests represented. Scotland's interests will never be represented in Westminster. They weren't even represented on the few occasions Scotland got the government we voted for.
