Look out for an increase in Scottish stories in the UK press with a SNP baaaaad slant. Recent guardian article shows this well. A small piece on the SNP roadmap - 1/4 directly on the roadmap with no comments from the SNP. 3/4 of the article given to the rest of the scottish parties shouting SNP baaad
NO analysis as such. No statements from SNP people.
I’m English-born and have lived in the Borders (a pro-Union area) for nearly 10 years – never had an anti-English issue. I ride with many, many locals plus incomers and other English ‘settlers’ 🙂 Never had an issue.
I was thinking more of the blue areas of Glasgow and Aberdeen in general.
What School did you go to BruceWee? 😉
You haven’t got a clue about Spanish politics.
Well Edukate me then. I just follow what's reported in the press and Spain is on dodgy ground over Human rights in Catalonia. It wouldn't take a lot to tip the Commission in the Catalans favour. The Spanish kept a very/surprisingly low profile over Gibralta during the Brexit negotiations.
https://euobserver.com/political/146271
Have you travelled elsewhere in the world?
Yes. I regularly cross national borders and know which ones I need a passport for and which ones just an ID card will do. In the event of Scottish independence and Scotland joining the EU you'd need a passport to travel between London and Glasgow. However EU citizens would only require an ID to sail from Edinburgh to the Hague in Holland which would be an obvious sea route to open up.
Edit: it might be worth mentionning I worked in Barcellona for a year, have regualar contact with Spanish/Basque friends and can see Spain from my garden.
Scottish born but my family moved south before I was 3 so I have a cut glass English accent. Recently moved up and the plan is to stay here for keeps. I suspect a bit like born again Christians there is nothing more pious than a repatriated Scot!
In 2015 if I had had the vote I would have voted no. There has been an awful lot of water under the bridge since then both nationally and personally and if given the chance to vote I'm minded to vote yes.
But....and it's a massive but.....that is a yes from the heart. It's based on a lot of emotion. It's based on spending a lifetime in tory constituencies and feeling like a minority. When talking generalities Scotland collectively has a different politically and philosophical leaning to England and moving back puts me back in the majority consensus. I like it - not from a my vote 'winning' perspective but from a being surrounded by more like minded people perspective. Translating that into governance feels like a good thing. My yes also comes from an emotional response to London government direction, performance, behaviour and a general loathing of the decisions made by my fellow voters. Divorcing ourselves from the lead weight of gammon English voters and their chosen Etonian flag bearers would feel brilliant.
I am achingly aware that a lot of my reasons for a yes are relatively short term inspired. Bluntly it is a reaction to Brexit, a reaction to BJ and his ilk and a general loathing of English idiot class tory voters. Is is that a rational set of principles to have behind a vote that will be age defining - hell no!
The thing that makes me HATE the majority of Brexit voters with a passion was their voting with ignorance. Voting on a hunch based on no real understand. Voting with the heart but not being able to backup their reasoning with sound logic. Voting without really understanding the consequences or the bigger picture. I would be a massive hypocrite if I did the same I'll be ****ed if I'm going to vote (whenever that is) until I truly understand what is involved and the true impact. Those leading the yes vote will need to win over people like me with a proper detailed strategy and implementation. It can't be a tartan bus with a slogan on it. If Brexit has taught us anything it is that the responsibility to give the workings out and the fine details lays with the side arguing for change from the status quo.
What School did you go to BruceWee? 😉
Let's just say I never got the day off for elections.
And then off to the Middle East to escape the religious intolerance 🙂
England-Scotland must have their equivalent Renault-Nissan Sunderland plant, BMW and Honda factories, Airbus Bristol, Computer manufacturers, city fund operators... which will demonstrably impacted by putting them on different sides of a border. Come on locals, you must know some. I can point to fisheries, the oil sector, Whisky food and other beverages... which are major exports to the EU and say that rejoining the EU would be a bigger positive than leaaving the UK would be a negative. There must be counter examples I just can't think of one or name a company.
Things may be better in 10-20 years but isn’t that just the same crap that brexit proponents spout.
Well anyone who thinks independence would be an overnight magic solution to all of Scotland's problems is clearly deluded. Nobody should be voting yes for benefits they will gain in one or two parliamentary cycles. The problem is the "status quo" is known and safer and lower risk argument is out the window because of Brexit. If we wait 20 years to have another referendum then Brexit might have started to sort itself out and those arguments will reemerge together with probably new ones about us having diverged from EU too much to make a closer relationship easy, etc.
There’d also be the need to setup government departments to duplicate functions that are currently done UK wide which obviously costs money.
Devolution means we already have a lot of duplication, for better or worse. Setting up new departments gives the option to "do it right" (not a guarantee that they will) and embed systems which are more efficient. And of course, in some cases, especially around regulation the argument would be EU would resume those aspects. One major area we would need to set up, and spend money on is defence - but there's a strong feeling in most of Scotland that Trident is a waste of money, so its not like we will be rushing to build a nuclear arsenal.
After seeing the utter disaster of brexit I’m amazed anyone would want independence in the near term.
There are definitely lessons to learn! However:
The English (lets not pretend otherwise) negotiating position would be entirely hostile as anything else would go down badly with large chunks of the electorate.
Imagine a friend said to you she was thinking of leaving her husband, but was concerned that based on his previous behaviour it would be a horribly hostile divorce, so thought should just keep quiet and carry on unhappy. What would you advise? Imagine a cycling club said they were more focussed on touring than racing so were going to disaffiliate from British Cycling (because of some new (hypothetical for the purposes of this illustration) rule BC have that you can't be BC and UK Cycling affiliated - but where scared BC would make life very difficult for a handful of members who need BC more than others. What would you say?
If the main reason to stay in a relationship is because the other party will make life horrible if you leave - that's not a good relationship.
If you are in a generation which misses out because of Brexit, why would you want to wait till the next generation to start making changes? If you care about Scotland's Drug problems why would you want to wait 20 years to get the freedom to make your own drug laws and tackle the issues the way you want? If you believe that taxation needs major reform, why would you want to be locked to a tax system which is only ever a tinkering of the Westminster levels? And, perhaps this is an issue which more "anti-SNP" people need to wake up to, if you want to see politics in Scotland not be dominated by the SNP either because you are a strong advocate for progressive, left wing, workers rights ideals or because you would like to see a smaller state, greater free enterprise and lower taxation then independence will achieve that. The SNP won't disappear overnight come independence but the political debate in Scotland will move to what sort of country do you want Scotland to be rather than, do you want Scotland to be a country at all. Its an opportunity for left or right to stand up for what they believe in and challenge the status quo. The SNP aren't in power because everyone in Scotland thinks independence is the answer to all the problems - they are in power because the opposition parties consistently fail to propose Scottish solutions, rather than English policies with a tartan ribbon on them.
There would certainly be hostility from parts of the rUK electorate (strong pro-Union voices in Wales and NI will be just as keen to stop it becoming a trend), but I'm not sure whether those noisy voices would want to see a difficult deal which puts borders on the A1/M74 and makes it harder to visit their holiday house, move goods etc. Plenty of them will be opportunist too - so if there is a way to use a Scottish route to the EU market they'd be keen to exploit that! In fact I suspect that the Brexiteers who think UK got a bad deal would even see this as a way to tweak the deal with Europe - "look we are giving you Scotland back, you'll get its fisheries, can we talk about xxxx".
Those leading the yes vote will need to win over people like me with a proper detailed strategy and implementation.
Wonder if George Washington was held to this...
Those leading the yes vote will need to win over people like me with a proper detailed strategy and implementation. It can’t be a tartan bus with a slogan on it. If Brexit has taught us anything it is that the responsibility to give the workings out and the fine details lays with the side arguing for change from the status quo.
It will be interesting to see if the SNP do this
Tbf as brexit has shown quite well that many things won't be known, because they'll need to be negotiated but in contrast to brexit a plan could be set out & detailed.
Of course one of the secrets of Brexit (& Johnsonism) is to give no details, no plan, just slogans & jingoism
In fact the Brexit /tory way is to attack any sort of intellectualism as project fear/ doomongering, experts, judges etc are the enemy
Its a tightrope, the SNP need to be popular without being populist, Sturgeon is good at speaking to the public as grownups in a way that compulsive liar Johnson never could, yet he is charming and will Shapeshift as needed, Sturgeon/SNP need to be able to sell the dream of indy, not just the detailed plan
England-Scotland must have their equivalent Renault-Nissan Sunderland plant, BMW and Honda factories, Airbus Bristol, Computer manufacturers,
mmm... not so much, huge manufacturing in Scotland died out with Thatcher! When you exclude Oil - food and drink is our largest export, followed by technology. Most of our really big electronics stuff has been offshored long ago. There are lots of medium sized tech firms, the sort who probably suffer most from Brexit - because they aren't big enough to scare governments with shutting plants.
city fund operators…
financial services is a very important industry. In 2014 there was much talk of them all going to move to London if there was a Yes vote. It would be interesting to see what the position is if it happens again. I suspect the opposite may be true for some firms!
There must be counter examples I just can’t think of one or name a company.
Defence contractors engaged by UK government would be the only obvious one to me. The other big employment 'risk' would be the military bases, in particular, the submarine bases on the clyde - but they can't go overnight unlike a car factory. Those are the sort of scale where when they do close its not just the direct employees but whole areas which suffer. Huge swathes of Scotland are still suffering from those type of closures in the past.
yet he is charming
Really?
He had better ramp that charm right up to max for his wee Scotland tour then.
I am sure it's all very 'essential travel'.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-scotland-snp-second-independence-referendum-844559
Its a tightrope, the SNP need to be popular without being populist, Sturgeon is good at speaking to the public as grownups in a way that compulsive liar Johnson never could, yet he is charming and will Shapeshift as needed, Sturgeon/SNP need to be able to sell the dream of indy, not just the detailed plan
Its interesting Brexit wasn't supposed to win! In fact I'm sure enough of the vote to make the win/lose difference was just a protest vote against Cameron and the incumbent party. The SNP face the same problem but the other way round - the protest vote against the SNP is a NO vote, that doesn't mean they want to Stay just they don't want "Nicola" to win. The more noise Boris makes the more risk he becomes the "incumbent" voted against...
I think both parties need to show what a future looks like beyond their current personalities though. It shouldn't come down to that for such an important decision but one of the most common reasons I heard for No last time was "I don't like Salmond" and there's a big part of Scotland who "don't like wee Jimmy crankie". Nothing to do with policy or politics - they don't like the leader. Given then difficult discussions she faces around inquiries and forgetting meetings etc - it could do no harm to be making the next generation of SNP more visible... its presumably not John Swinney? Is it Kate Forbes? line those up against a Borris, then Gove etc... and suddenly we might have an immigration problem of our own - as the whole of England tries to move north!
Huge swathes of Scotland are still suffering from those type of closures in the past.
....as a direct result of successive Westminster governments and, maybe more crucially, opposition parties too, of either stripe, not giving a shit about anything that happens to anyone that talks a bit funny.
I live in a post industrial wasteland shithole due to the direct intervention of Thatcher, but at least she was open and honest about her intentions and motivations and had the conviction to follow through on them.
The real villains of the piece were the Labour opposition who stood idly by and did absolutely nothing but still relied on a faithful populace to blindly vote for them year after year.
It's no wonder that independence is an attractive proposition.
Well Edukate me then. I just follow what’s reported in the press and Spain is on dodgy ground over Human rights in Catalonia. It wouldn’t take a lot to tip the Commission in the Catalans favour. The Spanish kept a very/surprisingly low profile over Gibralta during the Brexit negotiations.
https://euobserver.com/political/146271
/blockquote>Dodgy ground lol, you mean the failed coup? The Spanish government was lenient with the leaders of this coup, in order to pander to Podemos.
Even if this was right, it has nothing to do with granting independence to Catalunya. The EU have nothing to gain from stirring the pot of Cataluña, it’s bad for business both nationally and internationally. Catalunya’s independence much like Brexit, is fueled by hate and big money.Spain benefits very much over having a good relationship with Britain, there are many people whose jobs depend on British tourism and expats. Spain doesn’t kick a fuss about everything much like France has been doing under Emperor Macron, especially when again there is not much to gain.
There are already enough problems in Spain, however there is one thing that the whole country gets pissed off about, and that is the Cataluña coup. Hence if the SNP tried to force it through, in any way that gave any legitimacy to Catalunya doing the same, it would be blocked.
Furthermore you are grossly overestimating the desirability of iScotland re entering the EU. It will be a new state, with a new currency, with an economy of 200billion(maybe net contributor in best case scenario?), which is not that much by EU standards, with its biggest trading partner being the UK.
There are already enough problems in Spain, however there is one thing that the whole country gets pissed off about, and that is the Cataluña coup. Hence if the SNP tried to force it through, in any way that gave any legitimacy to Catalunya doing the same, it would be blocked.
Scotland is no longer part of the EU, how can Spain block it?
Furthermore you are grossly overestimating the desirability of iScotland re entering the EU
Fishing - Scotland controls most of the UK fishing grounds. Oil, renewable energy, net contributor, good previous relationships (EU students etc)
But the biggest thing is prestige. How much would the EU enjoy going back to 28 and sticking two fingers up to little england?
Hence if the SNP tried to force it through, in any way that gave any legitimacy to Catalunya doing the same, it would be blocked.
When the UK was in the EU this was very pertinent. Spain would veto iScotland rejoining so as not to allow Catalunya to think it could be independent and remain in the EU
Now its irrelevant and a bunch of spanish politicians have said so
Scotland is no longer part of the EU, how can Spain block it?
IIRC any member can veto a new member. That's not to say they would but your question was how can they.
Really?
He had better ramp that charm right up to max for his wee Scotland tour then.
I am sure it’s all very ‘essential travel’.
Safest time for him to come - when we are all locked down!
IIRC any member can veto a new member. That’s not to say they would but your question was how can they.
Baboonz was saying Spain could block Scotlands independence 😳
The real villains of the piece were the Labour opposition who stood idly by and did absolutely nothing but still relied on a faithful populace to blindly vote for them year after year.
Well said.When I could first vote in 1986 the SNP were still the "Tartan Tories." I voted for Labour because that's what we did. They did NOTHING for us and jumping into bed with the Tories for Bitter together says everything about their priorities.
There are lots of medium sized tech firms, the sort who probably suffer most from Brexit – because they aren’t big enough to scare governments with shutting plants.
Another inconvenient fact is that post independence are the EU rules of origin for rUK manufacturers exporting to the EU. A lot of suppliers to the rUK manufacturing sector in iS may have to consider their location.
Gigaplants for car batteries for UK car manufacturers, I really doubt any are going to be in Scotland.
When the UK was in the EU this was very pertinent. Spain would veto iScotland rejoining so as not to allow Catalunya to think it could be independent and remain in the EU
Now its irrelevant and a bunch of spanish politicians have said so
Read again what I have written. FYI: A bunch of Spanish politicians have been flip-flopping on this issue, since once again its a delicate issue that has to do more with Catalunya than with Scotland doing everything right.
But the biggest thing is prestige. How much would the EU enjoy going back to 28 and sticking two fingers up to little england?
Little England you mean the 2 trillion (minus iScotland) economy. I'm sure the French and German would love to stick it up to England, but the question is do the other remaining members have any energy or care for this?
Scotland is no longer part of the EU, how can Spain block it?
Blocking the fast track entry to EU I mean lol.
Safest time for him to come – when we are all locked down!
Aye,would I get fined/locked up if I went to Perth* with a placard saying "Piss off ya Bawbag"? Keep a lookout on Reporting Scotland 😉
*He always goes there
Fishing – Scotland controls most of the UK fishing grounds. Oil, renewable energy, net contributor, good previous relationships (EU students etc)
Fish you have lots but there are largely overfished at the moment, , oil have you heard of climate change?, Renewables unstitching and allocating all the subsidies being paid to the asset owners is going to be a fun exercise for someone. Future schemes are your own problem and I don't see you exporting hydrogen to Norway. Net contributor? How much? Or will iS be a net receiver?
But the biggest thing is prestige. How much would the EU enjoy going back to 28 and sticking two fingers up to little england?
I really don't get why people think there is any anti English sentiment in the indyref2 campaign and it's campaigners? It's unabashed "civic" joy of a golden future.............
Aye,would I get fined/locked up if I went to Perth* with a placard saying “Piss off ya Bawbag”? Keep a lookout on Reporting Scotland
I think you are safe for a bit, this hasn't been enacted yet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53580326
There are already enough problems in Spain, however there is one thing that the whole country gets pissed off about, and that is the Cataluña coup.
On the sample size of Spannish people I know that's not true. My friend from Zarautz is Basque born but not in favour of independence for either the Basque country or Cataluna, but still thinks that the long jail sentences dished out were counter productive. Madrid is fueling extremism rather than producing convincing evidence and making policies that convince people a united Spain is beneficial to all.
On the sample size of Spannish people I know that’s not true. My friend from Zarautz is Basque born but not in favour of independence for either the Basque country or Cataluna, but still thinks that the long jail sentences dished out were counter productive. Madrid is fueling extremism rather than producing convincing evidence and making policies that convince people a united Spain is beneficial to all.
Again you are deluded. They were prosecuted for lesser crimes than what it was possible. For this there was an outrage in Spain. Madrid has been notorious at mismanaging its money(this is unquestionable), particularly dedicating funds at regions that offer very poor return on investment (and are also much poorer); hence the slogan "Espanya ens roba", translates to "Spain steals from us". Theres also the issue of the central government officials always being from the same region. Then there is this...
The not uncommon practice of harassing families of politicians that dont agree with independence:
https://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2017/12/10/5a2c22c8e2704e3d288b45e0.html
Kids being indoctrinated and discriminated early in school:
https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/27/59f2f923ca474159308b457b.html
LOL at Godwins
Quite a few European countries have separatist movements of one form or another developed politically to greater or lesser extents.
I don't think they are directly relevant and ultimately I don't think concerns about them will prevent EU membership for iS. I do think it will mean a longer pathway and the need for close alignment to the requirements for membership as a reality check against those trying to fracture European states
Gigaplants for car batteries for UK car manufacturers, I really doubt any are going to be in Scotland.
Do you think there is a realistic prospect for large volume battery manufacture in Scotland if we remain in the UK? Its seems an odd place to put it. I'd be putting it close to the car manufacturers, and as conveniently located as possible for import of raw materials.
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
Somebody thought there was, the UK government!
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
I can confirm that I received no Merks or Bawbees for this
Quite a few European countries have separatist movements of one form or another developed politically to greater or lesser extents.
I don’t think they are directly relevant and ultimately I don’t think concerns about them will prevent EU membership for iS. I do think it will mean a longer pathway and the need for close alignment to the requirements for membership as a reality check against those trying to fracture European states
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
Yet another civic, inclusive comment testament to the openness of some of the people supporting iScotland. He is a Russian bot trying to keep the UK together by asking questions and delivering reality checks. Similar to those asked in the Brexit threads.
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
Free
Is big&daft a paid troll
#fakenews, straight out of the Trump playbook, don't like the questions someone is asking, play the man. Seem to be quite a few iS supporters on this thread doing the same.
Yet another civic, inclusive comment testament to the openness of some of the people supporting iScotland. He is a Russian bot trying to keep the UK together by asking questions and delivering reality checks. Similar to those asked in the Brexit threads.
Nope, he's a either a troll or an idiot.
He has been pulled up numerous times for expecting higher levels of certainty from indy supporters than he expects from unionists.
Every time this has been pointed out he has responded with a sarky comment.
He is trying to derail the discussion without contributing anything himself. He expects everyone to treat every barrier he comes up with as undisputed fact whereas every solution anyone offers is dismissed as unicorns.
As has been said several hundred times, we don't have any more information than you. We can't tell you for sure how the UK government is going to react and we can't tell you exactly how the EU is going to react.
Guess what, neither can you. So your 'facts' are actually your opinion but treating your opinion as anything other than an absolute fact is apparently brexit level delusion. If you want to engage in the debate then you have to at least acknowledge your own level of uncertainty.
If you just want to troll then keep doing what your doing.
stumpyjon
I will quite happily engage with you, kennyp or anyone else who wants to have a decent debate.
I will not engage with someone who is attempting to anger me , who puts words in my mouth and then uses those words to condemn and who is deliberately derailing the debate
He has been pulled up numerous times for expecting higher levels of certainty from indy supporters than he expects from unionists.
Which is completely legitimate, unionists aren't trying to fundamentally change the structure of our country. We can all see what Unionism gives us, you may not like it, in many ways it's not serving people brilliantly north or south of the border, more to do with Westminster politics than unionism per se. However if you say scrap it you need to explain what comes after, how it will be realistically achieved and what the likely benefits will be and how that leaves Scotland in a better place than at the moment.
we don’t have any more information than you
So you don't have the answers to legitimate questions but are prepared to back independence on faith?
TJ
I will not engage with someone who is attempting to anger me
I don't think we're trying to offend, unfortunately emotions on this subject seem to running rather high, especially from the iS side of the argument. We're actually finding it quite frustrating as from our perspective this is panning out exactly like Brexit, which given many of the pro iS posters here were articulate defenders of remain is even more depressing.
Anyway, I stand by my previous comment, descending to call someone a troll because you don't like what they are asking is not debate. We do have obvious trolls on the forum from time to time BnD is not one of them.
I have not taken offense at anything you say stumpy. perfectly happy to debate with you
Big and daft has referred to me as "Gove", "the englishman" and other pejorative terms He has put words in my mouth and then attempted to use them to belittle me.
He has sneeringly dismissed my views and opinions but stated his own views and opinions as facts even when they are demonstrably false
His sneering tone is unpleasant. He has deliberately attempted to make me irate. ~Exactly the same modus operandi as THM
Readback on his posts
We’re actually finding it quite frustrating as from our perspective this is panning out exactly like Brexit,
Its really nothing like brexit as there was a detailed plan last time which i am sure will be updated in plenty of time. No empty slogans nor lies nor manipulation
What are you finding frustrating and / or have not had answers to? I'll attempt to answer them.
Nope I am merely querying some of the contradictory assertions from iS supporters on this thread. Can Scotland be independent, yes. Is it big enough, yes. Is it capable, yes. Is there a draft plan, assuming some rehash of the Scotland Act or similar yes there is something not a vacuum. I am just asking about the snakeoil that is being used to lubricate the iS campaign wheels
No Giga factories planned in Scotland? UK government put £10m of development cash in
EU membership possible? Half a dozen posts up there saying it's possible and the various European separatist movements and issues are not likely to be a constraint on future membership. I am questioning how iS prepares and the timeframe
He is trying to derail the discussion without contributing anything himself. He expects everyone to treat every barrier he comes up with as undisputed fact whereas every solution anyone offers is dismissed as unicorns.
The "transitional pound" for EU membership is a "unicorn", it's either the Euro (perfectly sound strategy), a Scottish currency ( perfectly sound strategy) or another EU member currency (less than convinced). The Euro and Scottish currency come with issues but do enable EU membership, one issue is that there will be a transition which takes time and that needs to be embedded before EU membership.
So as others have pointed out EU membership is not "virtually instant" post independence just on that one issue, nevermind fiscal alignment, or even mandate etc.
There are statements that Scotland would be a net contributor to the EU, all I have asked is how much?
Then we get the border issue. On day one of independence the EU (unless iS can quickly negotiate a deal) will be deemed by the EU as a third country for rules of origin purposes which then impacts the ability of rUK manufacturers to use iS parts as they need to achieve 55% by value of rUK origin to avoid tariffs. Join the EU and then the EU insist on a single market border between England and Scotland
No anti English sentiment?
How many times have the phrases "little England" or "little Englander" been posted by iS campaigners on this thread, never mind the tropes about despite having nearly proportionately double the number of immigrants compared to Scotland, England is some xenophobic hell hole. But challenge the iS campaigners on this and there is a cognitive dissonance.
Maybe the unionist campaign should be centred on how "not as crap as they say" England (not Wales they are already OK as they aren't English) England is and how many Scots have made their home here. After all the Scots living in England wouldn't chose to live in a xenophobic hell hole would they.
Nope you're trolling under the guise of raising pertinent points
