the central belt really is not representative of Scotland and both geographically the two countries are quite different.
You could look to the North West of England as a comparative, population numbers similar, M62 Manchester/Liverpool for the central belt and then a increasingly dispersed population as you head north. But it's different, the geography makes the area outside the central belt significantly different, then the islands are a step beyond that. You don't get the same isolation in England except in a few special places.
Calling Scotland a region?
Don't feed the troll
Ireland might only have 13 MEPs, and if it is those 13 MEPs against the other 692 then they would quite rightly lose the vote. However, it will likely be that other countries and groups within the Parliament support them or they can be persuaded by horse trading.
How much legislation did those MEPs introduce to the EU Parliament
@Edukator:
I am firmly against the way it was executed, i.e., unconstitutional illegal referendum. I have also seen and know of the damage that the separatist movement has done in Catalunya. I want Spain's policies to be fixed, so that distribution of money is better managed (btw this is already happening). Not to break up Spain. If independence is what they want, do it by the book, however long that takes. I will support their choice, even if I don't think its the right one, and same with Scotland.
Madrid has been taking the piss out of every region that is not the Castillas, Andalucia or North of Spain (yes the Pais Vasco actually get a pretty sweet deal in the redistribution of money). Airports, High speed rails and highways in places where they would never work and it would be shut down or unused.
I personally don't see many parallels between Scotland and Catalunya other than the end result. There are more parallels between Brexit and the Cataluña issue, such as xenophobia, manipulation, populism, false propaganda...
The only important thing is are your interests represented.
Was Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath not represented? Were those people in Edinburgh South East let down and without a voice in Westminster?
How much legislation did those MEPs introduce to the EU Parliament
I don't know. How many pieces of legislation introduced by the SNP in Westminster have become law?
Was Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath not represented? Were those people in Edinburgh South East let down and without a voice in Westminster?
Yes, because the FPTP system combined with the whip system means the interests of individual constituencies fall by the wayside in the pursuit of the 800,000 or so swing voters who decide each election.
See Starmer's U-turn on Freedom of Movement for a recent example.
See Starmer’s U-turn on Freedom of Movement for a recent example
Which is logical as there now isn't a reciprocal agreement with the EU, the wider issues around this are set out in his quotes here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/keir-starmer-accepts-end-of-eu-free-movement-in-brexit-reversal
I accept there is difference in migration around the UK, the net figures are small in a UK context https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/statistics-and-data/statistics/scotlands-facts/scotlands-net-migration
I also can understand the concern over depopulation, aging population, skills shortages etc which obviously led to the policy on free tuition for EU nationals at Scottish universities. The SNP regional visa may have been a good idea and could be a lot more attractive to EU nationals now free movement has ended for E&W.
The reasons he gave are bullshit. Same as the reasons he gave for 3 line whipping to vote for the deal were bullshit.
His actual reason for doing both is that in order to win the election he has to win some key seats and in those seats they are not going to vote for a party that is going to bring back FoM.
It's as simple as that and it's a perfect illustration of the UK being fundamentally undemocratic where the desires of a tiny percentage of swing voters dictate both the government and opposition policy.
Same as the reasons he gave for 3 line whipping to vote for the deal were bullshit.
No deal would have been better? It was the perfect trap, he had only crap options and chose not to virtue signal
How much legislation did those MEPs introduce to the EU Parliament
**** legislation. They worked their arses off from the day after the referendum while you lot were still masturbating over the result. And look...it did nothing. The EU sold them down the river.
No deal would have been better?
Presenting it as voting for the deal means voting against no deal was also a lie:
https://twitter.com/lukecooper100/status/1343517157318078465
And yet the lie has been repeated so often by the UK press that it has become the truth.
And yet the lie has been repeated so often by the UK press that it has become the truth.
As soon as the vote was set up the trap was set. The procedural point that it wasn't required is irrelevant politically.
But you carry on with blaming Starmer for making the best of a crap position
If independence is what they want, do it by the book,
I think they would if there was a book that allowed it.
There are more parallels between Brexit and the Cataluña issue, such as xenophobia, manipulation, populism, false propaganda
The EU has never carried out armed repression of Britain, has never tried to overwhelm Brits with a mass influx of people from Europe, has never creamed off pretty much all the money Britain makes... I think you're forgetting the history of the Cataluna issue which provides a base for unrest far more solid than resentment of Polish plumbers or bent bananas. Unless you take the logic behind Brexit back to "we won the war but lost the peace" which I did hear more than once, along with references to Dunkirk spirit.
In Scotland I don't see the justification for "xenophobia", immigration isn't an issue and some of teh people on this thread admit they have very English accents which aren't a problem. "Manipulation" of whom by whom, any manipulation I see is from Westminster in that manipulation is based on lies and Westminster pretty much has the monopoly of those. "Populism" or playing to peoples worst instincts - well sturgeon pointed out when the Brexiters were doing it but I can't say I can accuse her of being guilty of it. If populism is having policies dear to the hearts of Scots in terms of social and economic policy then she's populist, but that isn't the real definition of populist as I understand it. If you think people are using "false propaganda" you really need to cite a few examples. In the case of Brexit the EU had pages and pages of Boris, Vote Leave and Farrage lies fact checked, do that for the SNP and I'll take the accusation seriously.
You seem to have blood that boils easily Baboonz. 😉
The EU has never carried out armed repression of Britain, has never tried to overwhelm Brits with a mass influx of people from Europe, has never creamed off pretty much all the money Britain makes…
My point is, Catalunya aren't the only ones having to deal with this, C.Valenciana also has had to deal with this and on the economic aspect Islas Baleares. Is the solution then to break up the country? The sad thing is that the central government didn't even cream themselves with that money, they squandered it away, and created Madrid in its present form which always feels like an artificial plastic capital city.
@Edukator read this again, the SNP may have had some parallels with Catalunya, but they extent the latter have gone goes far beyond what the SNP have even remotely tried. Which is why I said Brexit has more parallels to Catalunya than iScotland.
I personally don’t see many parallels between Scotland and Catalunya other than the end result. There are more parallels between Brexit and the Cataluña issue, such as xenophobia, manipulation, populism, false propaganda…
You seem to have blood that boils easily Baboonz. 😉
This is probably one of the topics that most angers me. I grew up in Castellon, so I've witness all the nonsense, and the reality is that Catalans are now poorer as a result of the separatists.
some of teh people on this thread admit they have very English accents which aren’t a problem.
Some of us in Scotland actually are English
As soon as the vote was set up the trap was set. The procedural point that it wasn’t required is irrelevant politically.
But you carry on with blaming Starmer for making the best of a crap position
You seem to be making my argument for me.
It was never a question of 'a vote against the deal is a vote for no deal.' Voting for the deal was a purely political gesture.
Not pursuing FoM was also a purely political gesture. He said that the EU would have no interest in renegotiating. They not only have an interest in renegotiating, it's required.
These were both purely political gestures and they were designed to appeal to a handful of swing voters in key seats because in the UK you don't get elected by representing the interests of the majority of the country, you get elected by appealing to a few swing voters.
Scotland has become a political irrelevancy for the English parties because none of the key swing voters live there. Scotland's interests will never be represented.
Interesting view from someone close by.
**** legislation. They worked their arses off from the day after the referendum while you lot were still masturbating over the result. And look…it did nothing. The EU sold them down the river.
FFS get a grip.
The whole Brexit saga showed the unity across the EU for all it's countries (or any size), whereas in the Union NI and Scotland were basically told to do one and accept what Westminster decided.
Scotland has proportionately more MPs at Westminster than it would have in the EU parliament (Ireland for example has 13 out of 705). Scotland at Westminster 59 out of 650
Just a point on this. We have 18 MPs in N.Ireland but 7 of those don't take their seats as they don't recognise Westminster. So N.Ireland is actually represented by 11 MPs out of 650
FFS get a grip.
Thank you for furthering my point.
Interesting view from someone close by.
Arguably reinforces the "boycott" any non Section 30 independence referendum that the SNP set up. It destroys the claim for legitimacy if turn out is 50% or less.
Although the SNP have to survive a few bumps in the road before May's election
Sorry but it’s tripe, you would have to connect to a grid for security of supply for general use, industries can and do operate off grid. Connecting renewables to either gas or electricity grids anywhere near population is not prohibitive. Out in the sticks then scale matters and issues can arise such as on Orkney
You just backed up TJs point completely. Present grid connection charges are based on distance from SW England, providers further away pay more for connection charges regardless of proximity to population on their own sub-grid whilst providers closer to the SE can actually be paid to generate. Scotland has been asking for reform on this for years with nothing to show for it. That was the primary driver for Longannet closing (since they were getting hammered on emissions and lost their contract) which had the unfortunate side effect of Scotland being left without a black start provision.
You just backed up TJs point completely. Present grid connection charges are based on distance from SW England, providers further away pay more for connection charges regardless of proximity to population on their own sub-grid whilst providers closer to the SE can actually be paid to generate. Scotland has been asking for reform on this for years with nothing to show for it. That was the primary driver for Longannet closing (since they were getting hammered on emissions and lost their contract) which had the unfortunate side effect of Scotland being left without a black start provision.
OK my power project wasn't impacted by this and the charges were not a material issue. I can understand that as portrayed the current system may be frustrating but I don't see in the short term how you are going to change the paradigm. Creating a separate national grid will have significant costs, any hope of exporting will hit the same issue as you have now. Unless you are planning exporting liquidified hydrogen in ships what are you going to use the surplus of renewables for? Any industrial investment will need a lot more certainty on border (and therefore tariff and country of origin issues) and currency issues than can be given for a long time
big_n_daft
Arguably reinforces the “boycott” any non Section 30 independence referendum that the SNP set up. It destroys the claim for legitimacy if turn out is 50% or less.
You say that as if it is fact. It originated in the BritNat bilge factory.
Non participation in a democratic process is generally treated as acceptance of whatever result occurs.
The current UK govt obviously operates on that principle, otherwise, why is Brexit ok at 37%?
You say that as if it is fact. It originated in the BritNat bilge factory.
It's a viewpoint, one with it's own issues as you point out. Walkouts can be counterproductive as the labour left found out at some recent NEC elections.
It's a democracy so voting is a moral obligation regardless of the issue/ quality of the candidates. However in this case you are forced to share in a process that's advisory that then leads to another vote. So why not just wait to the one that matters?
There is a natural advantage to whoever calls for an advisory referendum, mobilisation of the "not yes" vote will be harder and the yes voters will be whipping up the "once again in a lifetime" vote.
So it's arguably predicable that turnout will be lower than for a section 30 and more likely to get a pro iS result.
But that's politics and the SNP are going to go for it, hopefully a new generation of politicians will emerge who will be able to generate a coherent challenge
And Facebook (and Twitter or even spoof image (ninja edit)) does really create a sump for all the idiots to sink into, although sharing stuff like that serves a purpose for you.
That Twitter pic appears to be for an account that doesn’t exist
Thank you squirrelking
Closure of Longannet was at least partly a political decision to ensure scotland did not have blackstart ability IMO
the SNPs plan was to move faster on renewables to 100% of capacity and to build two new gas stations to provide blackstart and excess capacity for that winter high pressure event. Because of the high access charges and the inability of the scottish government to raise money this never happened. Renewables are just about there.
power generation is one area where independence would greatly benefit Scotland ( even tho IIRC Squirreellking and I do not agree on the direction)
OK my power project wasn’t impacted by this and the charges were not a material issue. I can understand that as portrayed the current system may be frustrating but I don’t see in the short term how you are going to change the paradigm.
Quite easily, access charges can be changed. You could charge access based on carbon emissions for example or based on some other criteria. Yes, distance comes into it in real terms but there are technical solutions that could be exploited (more macro generation in remote areas for example) to mitigate.
Creating a separate national grid will have significant costs, any hope of exporting will hit the same issue as you have now.
Not sure why you think that, Scotland already has its own grid which imports or exports to adjacent grids through links either on the super grid or the likes of the HVDC cable from Hunterston to Anglesey. You think the grid is a single entity but it's actually made up of smaller grids, for very good technical reasons.
Unless you are planning exporting liquidified hydrogen in ships what are you going to use the surplus of renewables for? Any industrial investment will need a lot more certainty on border (and therefore tariff and country of origin issues) and currency issues than can be given for a long time
We can export to the rest of the UK or Europe through existing links. Same as Norway do right now.
Closure of Longannet was at least partly a political decision to ensure scotland did not have blackstart ability IMO
Oh politics were involved but it was only after it was too late that the Scotgov realised* the strategic importance and by then it was too late.
*and I mean really had reality shown to them.
the SNPs plan was to move faster on renewables to 100% of capacity and to build two new gas stations to provide blackstart and excess capacity for that winter high pressure event. Because of the high access charges and the inability of the scottish government to raise money this never happened. Renewables are just about there.
power generation is one area where independence would greatly benefit Scotland ( even tho IIRC Squirreellking and I do not agree on the direction)
Never heard about them building anything, I thought they were expecting Scottish Power to build Cockenzie B and then the project just became vapourware.
As for direction, things have moved on a lot. I'm still pro-nuclear but have never claimed it's the be-all and end-all. If it was the choice between nuclear and gas though I know which I'd rather have from an energy security standpoint.
Not commented on this thread, so here is my take as a Northumbrian living in the North of England.
We dont have an SNP to vote for in England hence the Redwalls vote nationalist via the Tories. I think there is a significant cultural/social difference between England and Scotland and this is clearly defined in brexit and the SNP.
I do chuckle when i see folks like Andrew Neil throw the whole remain argument against Scotland while brexit ignored them.
Do i think Scotland would suffer if it left the UK almost certainly, is it a price worth paying almost certainly.
The real question is how rapidly it can gain its place in the EU and the world, few countries so small have such a strong brand and they would get support from the EU and the US. Beyond this they have a small population with lots of space.
Would i move there to regain my EU citizenship and leave England to the Engerlish yes.would i create business and a few jobs yes. At least i would be in a country with a common direction and some form of social responsibility.
+1 oldmanmtb2
Because this is what our English 'cousins' have voted for, written in 2012 and lots of accurate foresight including this classic:
"They do not appear to see the world as a complex place."
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/sep/27/britannia-unchained-global-lessons-review
Lol at both the unionists and nationalists getting their knickers in a twist about bawjaws impending visit. Let him come, he's a gift from god for Independence, whatever shite he spouts will be worth at least another % on those polls.
It is rather amusing. Even the scottish tories try to distance themselves from him!
I bet he makes an overt breach of the scots rules on it and i would love to see someone try a private prosecution 🙂
tjagain
Full Member
It is rather amusing. Even the scottish tories try to distance themselves from him!I bet he makes an overt breach of the scots rules on it and i would love to see someone try a private prosecution
If Johnson or one of his entourage end up testing +ve, would be uproar, but Im pretty sure theyve all had it now as they never bothered sticking to the rules themselves!
anyway
Holyrood elections will be interesting, SNP polling v well, but its still an assumption they will get a ref legitimising majority, if for some reason they dont, then indy will be parked for a while
Holyrood elections will be interesting, SNP polling v well, but its still an assumption they will get a ref legitimising majority, if for some reason they dont, then indy will be parked for a while
I'm certainly more interested in the list vote this time around. In many cases an alternative "Indy" party would be a good choice. It could reduce the number of Unionist MSPs and might have the effect of holding the SNPs feet to the fire regarding progress towards independence.
Because this is what our English ‘cousins’ have voted for, written in 2012 and lots of accurate foresight including this classic:
I can safely bet you haven't read the book, nor have 99.99% of the electorate
So other than a review by a former labour MP how do you know what's in it?
I'm in the 99.99% btw
I’m certainly more interested in the list vote this time around. In many cases an alternative “Indy” party would be a good choice. It could reduce the number of Unionist MSPs and might have the effect of holding the SNPs feet to the fire regarding progress towards independence.
Its been pretty pointless voting snp in the list vote and even more this time. they are unlikely to get any list MSPs as the hog the constituency ones 😉 I have always been " second vote green" for this very reason. they get representation via the list and every list vote for them makes a huge difference as they are not much above the thresholds for representation - so a few thousand more votes can lead to a lot more greens
I think and hope the greens will be the major beneficiaries of the collapse in the unionist party votes. But i do hope they are learning the lessons and become a little more professional
I’m in the 99.99% btw
And I'm not.
In a previous life I worked (contractor) in a Govt dept and spent time in Central Govt - and radicals have always interested me 🙂
Hang on. What's Johnson doing getting out of a grey plane when he spent all that cash having one painted red white and blue?
The photo op in the testing centre really annoys me - there's absolutely no constructive reason for him & his entourage to be there, it's infuriating...
Finish the sentence competition:
https://twitter.com/gedfitzfilm/status/1354729401301282818?s=09
Hang on. What’s Johnson doing getting out of a grey plane when he spent all that cash having one painted red white and blue?
Cos he's toxic.
Carry on Boris, you're doing a grand job to further the independence vote
Boris Johnson says independence debate 'irrelevant' to most Scots
Gaun yerself Bawjaws
Honestly he's the gift that keeps on giving. It speaks to the man's deep seated narcissism that he thinks anyone still believes him.
Honestly they just can't help themselves. The right honourable representative of.the 18th century lets us know where we belong.
