I can’t help feeling that it’s all a bit (lot?) like:
‘Brexit means brexit’ but just: ‘iS means iS’
Just out of interest, where do you get your information on the debate?
Do you talk to your friends about independence (I'm assuming you live in Scotland or have friends and family who live in Scotland and you discuss independence regularly with them)?
Frankly, the only way you could see Brexit and Independence in the same light is if you are completely detached from the debate.
they could even opt to re-join.
They could opt to apply to rejoin. Whether the application would be accepted is another matter that the UK has no control over. Europe seems to be getting on much better without the UK sabotaging things such as European financing of debt. The balance of power in Europe has shifted away from the neo-liberal austerity countries to the satisfaction of the now majority. I believe Covid and its economic impact have been better managed in Europe thanks to Brexit.
Europe has moved to the left thanks to Brexit. 🙂
Scotland however is much more socialist than the UK and would fit in nicely.
it was a wry dig at the seemingly unending list of prerequisites that folk have before considering voting for Scottish independence.
This kind of mildly patronising post is exactly the type of response that I have come to expect from hardened yes supporters unfortunately. Top tip...if you want to win independence, don't dismiss the opinions and concerns of the very people who's votes you'll need to get you your majority.
Frankly, the only way you could see Brexit and Independence in the same light is if you are completely detached from the debate.
Interesting, where would I go to get greater insight? Because I don’t see much debate anywhere - just people with entrenched views. Anyone asking questions gets accused of trolling.
Interesting, where would I go to get greater insight? Because I don’t see much debate anywhere – just people with entrenched views. Anyone asking questions gets accused of trolling.
Personally, I read the Scottish news and talk to my Scottish friends and family. I talk to people here as well, to a certain extent, but mostly talking to people who have also read and watched the Scottish news.
kimbers
Full MemberThe Times has a good breakdown of how The government plan to counter growing indy support
Does it include "travel back in time to immediately after the last referendum and not act like a shower of ****s"? Because that's the thing they need to do.
Catalonia
When the UK was in the EU the Spanish government said they would veto iScotland joining the EU because it would set precedent for Catalonia to do the same - split and be in the EU
Now the UK is out of the EU this no longer applies - it would not set precedent for Catalonia
The Situation would be much more like Slovenia after the breakup of Yugoslavia
Does it include “travel back in time to immediately after the last referendum and not act like a shower of ****”? Because that’s the thing they need to do.
Nah it seems to be based around sending the despised etonian honeymonster on a non essential journey to pose in some staged photos and give a colourful speech from fish market potato farm a vaccination center
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1353704918050349061
The Situation would be much more like Slovenia after the breakup of Yugoslavia
Was Yugoslavia in the EU? Not that I can recall.
I think I that's the point gauss
You don't have a part separating from an existing state trying to join. You have a part from a external state trying to join after separating from the non member state.
The situation NOW that should have read Sorry if unclear. Uk leaving the EU means there is no need for a spanish veto
Silly me, carry on.
I could still see Spain being a tad uneasy about it though.
I can't say I support Scottish Independence. It all seems predicated on the most small-minded nationalism.
To have any hope of "saving the union" the unionists need to split off the uncommitted independence supporters or pragmatic ones. Those that do not hold an ideological position on independence but rather judge independence as the best way to secure a vision of the future they want. to some extent I am in this group as the key drivers for me are that I want a progressive government and I want to be in the EU
To do this they need to offer something that can achieve splitting these people off from the committed independence supporters. A real federal solution could be that answer but there are two major issues with this. 1: its really had to see a structure that would work given England holds 85% of the population. 4 equal partners with such disproportionate sizes makes finding a structure difficult. It would also have to mean that there was a huge amount more devolution so that only macro economic policy and defense were UK wide so Westminster would be a shadow of what it is and 2: We where promised nearly this after 2014 ( devo max) and that turned out to be a complete lie. fool me twice?
for me that boat has sailed. 10 years ago if there had been a constitutional convention on federalism in the UK they might have been able to offer a vision of a federal UK that would seem attractive. Now i simply do not see one
I can’t say I support Scottish Independence. It all seems predicated on the most small-minded nationalism.
Is that the same opinion you had in 2014 and did you vote No then?
I'm still struggling to find the Yes-to-No voters, though it's apparent that Brexit has created a few.
Wanting a federal UK, and by implication, NOT one person one vote, seems rather cynical to me, i.e., just changing the rules to suit yourself?
Veto for me, but not for thee?
I see it as an escape from small-minderd English nationalism. Brexit will damage Scotland despite Scots voting against it. I can understan eople not wanting their fate decided by a Westminster government intent on policies destructive to Scotland.
Spain needs the support of the other EU 27, they won't compromise that by being difficult over Scotland, they'll keep theri heads down rather than have the EU27 take another look at the Catalan and Basque issues.
1: its really had to see a structure that would work given England holds 85% of the population. 4 equal partners with such disproportionate sizes makes finding a structure difficult.
as part of 'leveling up' it really needs to be done across the UK, not just scotland but the NW, SW etc need much more devolution
for me that boat has sailed. 10 years ago if there had been a constitutional convention on federalism in the UK they might have been able to offer a vision of a federal UK that would seem attractive. Now i simply do not see one
I fear you may be right and Johnson paying lip service to leveling up will only make things worse
I see it as an escape from small-minderd English nationalism. Brexit will damage Scotland despite Scots voting against it.
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh...
This kind of mildly patronising post is exactly the type of response that I have come to expect from hardened yes supporters unfortunately. Top tip…if you want to win independence, don’t dismiss the opinions and concerns of the very people who’s votes you’ll need to get you your majority.
The problem is that you want guarantees about things that can't be guaranteed and it's frustrating because surely you must know they can't be guaranteed. The EU and UK governments haven't told us what they are going to do so we can't tell you.
Hopefully once the referendum gets closer the EU will make it's position clear. That will be a game changer because that will introduce a level of certainty that the Yes side didn't have in 2014.
If the EU stick to the same script as last time and say 'No comment' then you might have to bite the bullet and vote for something where you can't be 100% sure of the outcome.
But then if you vote No you can't be 100% sure of the outcome either so you're ****ed either way.
At least if you vote Yes you have the chance of running into your country's leader in the street and can tell her what you think. Good luck doing that with Fridge Boy.
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh…
Having worked overseas for many years myself I've never heard a Scottish person say Scotland when they meant UK. English otoh...
as part of ‘leveling up’ it really needs to be done across the UK, not just scotland but the NW, SW etc need much more devolution
the only structure I could see working is to split England up into around 10 regions of around 5 - 10 million people and make them equal to scotland / wales and NI. You could use the names of the ancient kingdoms. Wessex, northumbria, etc etc. this would also bring the cornish nationalists a bit of what they want.
All would need parliaments with a UK wide senate. All the "regional parliaments" would need equal and wide ranging powers. Turn the "United kingdom" into a "United states of Britain"
Its far too radical to happen tho i am sure and would still not answer some fundamentals
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh…
Lol, there was a thread on here a couple of weeks back, bikes stolen in 'north west uk'
Yes, it was in Preston. 🤣
When these folk write UK, they actually mean England, which isn't condescending in the slightest.
Wanting a federal UK, and by implication, NOT one person one vote, seems rather cynical to me, i.e., just changing the rules to suit yourself?
Veto for me, but not for thee?
The structure I outline would be one person one vote
You need some mechanism to prevent it being dominated by England or else it does not work You can do this thru a senate like the US whereby all states get an equal say in the senate despite their size, you can do it by splitting England up into smaller units.
Or you could go for super majorities so that England cannot outvote wales, NI and Scotland together
As i said its hard to find a structure that would work for everyone but its the only hope of preventing the breakup of the UK
I see it as an escape from small-minderd English nationalism.
Over 15% of the England's population are immigrants and growing faster than any of the other nations of the UK. Your stereotype of what the English are is almost as out of date as the idiots on EDL marches or subscribers to their social media
We are not short of racist idiots but don't have a monopoly in them within the UK
Over 15% of the England’s population
We're not racist, some of our best friends are black.
Given that Labour have just come out and said that they aren't going to pursue Freedom of Movement in the name of electability and the Tories are a baw hair away from being UKIP I'm not sure that claiming England's nationalism isn't inherently inward looking and jingoistic is plausible.
80% of the English population are going to vote for parties with inherently xenophobic policies at the next election.
Your stereotype of what the English are is almost as out of date as the idiots on EDL marches or subscribers to their social media
From having spent the last 33 years living there, I'm well versed in the attitudes of the English. You're also falling for the Scottish Nationalism = English hatred trope perpetuated by the unionist media. I'm half-English and my wife is the most fervent Indy supporter, she's from Kent - it's about politics and self-determination and not descending into the populist politics of divide and conquer. I've moved here to be part of a community, to build my business and invest here - 30% of the local population are English incomers. All those that contribute are welcome.
We’re not racist, some of our best friends are black.
Seems weird that they prefer to be south of the border? Why do they prefer the likes of Oldham and Blackburn? It's not the weather.
80% of the English population are going to vote for parties with inherently xenophobic policies at the next election.
But they aren't xenophobic, the change is to make them less Eurocentric, which is to essentially invite non white people here. You know like the British Overseas Passport holders in Hong Kong. I wonder what the split across the nation's will be when they start to take up the offer?
We will wait to see what is in the SNP indyref2 prospectus to see if they live up to your standards
All those that contribute are welcome
As they are south of the border, as so many more prove every day
I’ve moved here to be part of a community, to build my business and invest here
If you couldn't be part of a community south of the border it probably says more about you than where you lived
Don't feed the troll
Whe I looked at the potential impact of Brexit it didn't take long to write a list sectors that would be negatively impacted to some degree; finance, aerospace, pharma, automobile, rail, farming, tourism, educaton... in fact it got the point I realised it would be easier to make a list of things that wouldn't be affected, I thought of pubs and brewing but realised that people with less disposable income would spend less in them the range of beverages served would change.
So perhaps people can help me do that list for Scotalnd if it leaves the UK but joins the EU.
Tourism will take a hit if people need a passport to cross the border from England but benefit from being reoped to European tourists with just ID; agriculture and fisheries would require renogotiation with the EU on entry. The oil, hydro and wind energy sectors would be a major asset selling to the highest bidder. Education has always been a scottish forte and rejoining Erasmus would put it back into Europe as one of two English speaking countires in the EU along with Ireland.
What I don't know about is the degree of integration of Scottish companies with rUK business and is it greater than with the EU?
What I'm failing to do is make up that long list of obvious negatives from an economic point of view.
Tourism will take a hit if people need a passport to cross the border from England but benefit from being reoped to European tourists with just ID;
There’s no absolute requirement for a passport. No passports required in the common travel area at present and not obvious why any of the members would want to introduce such a restriction.
What I don’t know about is the degree of integration of Scottish companies with rUK business and is it greater than with the EU?
It’s quite significant, and often the HQ is English and so there could be risk to employment if the Scottish arm becomes hard work - but the alternative of having an English speaking EU (or EFTA/EEA) facility could play into others hands as well - apparently just last week some business were being told setting up an EU subsidiary could make their life easier by UK gov (oh the irony!). Scotland already has some slightly unusual corporate entity structures which would make it potentially interesting for people trying to do business less transparently - not that this is necessarily a good thing.
Education has always been a scottish forte
Sadly not anymore OECD average at best.
You’re also falling for the Scottish Nationalism = English hatred trope
It's not totally untrue though is it?!
it is pretty much. Yes there is an unpleasant fringe but as I have lived in Scotland since the 70s retaining my very english name and accent I can tell you its not really an issue these days. the nastiest element in Scotland is the rangers fan sectarian / unionist bunch. really unsavoury
Barely a hint of anti english racism in the big debate in 2014
What I’m failing to do is make up that long list of obvious negatives from an economic point of view.
The negatives should be very obvious. Leaving the UK will either require using a currency without having any control over it, or setting up a new one that will be attacked by currency speculators. Borrowing money to run a deficit will be expensive either way and the financial sector would leave due to having no realistic lender of last resort. Joining the EU requires a currency that can be pegged to the Euro and running a minimal deficit amongst other things, so that's deeper cuts than the despised Tory austerity. Things may be better in 10-20 years but isn't that just the same crap that brexit proponents spout.
There'd also be the need to setup government departments to duplicate functions that are currently done UK wide which obviously costs money.
After seeing the utter disaster of brexit I'm amazed anyone would want independence in the near term. The English (lets not pretend otherwise) negotiating position would be entirely hostile as anything else would go down badly with large chunks of the electorate.
it is pretty much. Yes there is an unpleasant fringe but as I have lived in Scotland since the 70s retaining my very english name and accent I can tell you its not really an issue these days.
It depends where you live. My best mate who lives just outside Aberdeen was warned off some of the smaller villages by his Scottish colleagues, though they also said that any outsider would have difficulties. Another friends wife experienced "racism" whilst living in Kinross, some shop keepers would serve Scots before her and they had anti English pamphlets through the door.
Spain needs the support of the other EU 27, they won’t compromise that by being difficult over Scotland, they’ll keep theri heads down rather than have the EU27 take another look at the Catalan and Basque issues.
You haven’t got a clue about Spanish politics.
If you couldn’t be part of a community south of the border it probably says more about you than where you lived
Oh yes, how silly of me there’s no difference between setting up an outdoor lifestyle business in a Hampshire commuter town and a Scottish island - I could go down the railway station and hawk my wares to the commuters on the 6:51 to Waterloo 🤣
When I used to work oversees, I never knew one English person but down English as their nationality on any forms, it was always British. Scottish otoh…
TBF, there's a very practical reason why I, at least, do that. When abroad I'm often met with a smile and better treatment when someone asks if I'm English and I reply 'No, I'm Scottish'. I'll not pretend to know the intricacies of why, but it works so...
I've just messaged a friend who lived in Kinross for years and she doesn't have a clue about this anti English stuff going on.
Which shop is this?
Oh yes, how silly of me there’s no difference between setting up an outdoor lifestyle business in a Hampshire commuter town and a Scottish island – I could go down the railway station and hawk my wares to the commuters on the 6:51 to Waterloo
It's only really a handful of locations in the highlands and islands where outdoor lifestyle retailers exist in any numbers so if its wares you want to peddle you're just as well of being near the market than the destination. In this example the market is clearly the commuters with disposable income and aspirational lifestyle purchases.
experienced “racism” whilst living in Kinross,
A good definition of "the fringes" Kinross!
Don’t feed the troll
You keep trolling with your EU membership will be virtually instant and easy
My best mate who lives just outside Aberdeen was warned off some of the smaller villages by his Scottish colleagues, though they also said that any outsider would have difficulties.
If you think the anti-English racism is bad then you should try going up there with a Glasgow accent. Interestingly, the Aberdeen region has the strongest pro-Union sentiments outside of The Borders.
It's interesting how the anti-English racism that is always brought up seems to be strongest among generally pro-Union populations.
Tourism will take a hit if people need a passport to cross the border from England but benefit from being reoped to European tourists with just ID;
Have you travelled elsewhere in the world?
It’s interesting how the anti-English racism that is always brought up seems to be strongest among generally pro-Union populations.
I'm English-born and have lived in the Borders (a pro-Union area) for nearly 10 years - never had an anti-English issue. I ride with many, many locals plus incomers and other English 'settlers' 🙂 Never had an issue.
