would that appeal to you?
Would depend if I viewed the Country A or Country A+B as the whole. There's 2 valid view points that are up for debate. Up to you to win the debate.
Borders are transient, not god given rights. Historical rights aren't the most important part, what are the benefits going forward are the more interesting and relevant topics.
It wasn’t condescending.
I read it as condescending tbh.
If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.
I'm sure that that kind of radical rethink of the electoral system could certainly buy them some time whilst people see what pans out - there is of course no certainty that a PR system would "favour" Scotland, although it would go a long way to silencing the "We never voted for them" argument. The other obvious way to make "Westminster relevant again in Scotland" would be to create a proper english parliament (or regional assemblies). I consider this the "inverse West Lothian question" - rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on "English issues" its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues. And of course those being "big" issues means that the choice of government for the whole of the UK is heavily influenced by English Health and Education priorities.
I (obviously) wouldn’t vote for Tory
Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.
I wouldn't worry. The SNP leadership don't appear to be in any hurry to push for independence. An ever-growing number of folk in the wider indy movement (both within and outwith the SNP) are growing tired of them and would rather they'd spent the last two years trying to sort out Indy instead of trying to fight the will of the people of England and their desire for Brexit.
If the UK moved away from FPTP and to a more PR system, I’d be happy staying in the UK.
I’m sure that that kind of radical rethink of the electoral system could certainly buy them some time whilst people see what pans out – there is of course no certainty that a PR system would “favour” Scotland, although it would go a long way to silencing the “We never voted for them” argument. The other obvious way to make “Westminster relevant again in Scotland” would be to create a proper english parliament (or regional assemblies). I consider this the “inverse West Lothian question” – rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on “English issues” its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues. And of course those being “big” issues means that the choice of government for the whole of the UK is heavily influenced by English Health and Education priorities.
problems with that though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
Neither regional devolution or replacing FPTP are going to happen.
scotroutes
Full Member
I (obviously) wouldn’t vote for Tory
Labour and LD are a wasted vote. That leaves me only voting SNP. But I am not in favour of independence.I wouldn’t worry. The SNP leadership don’t appear to be in any hurry to push for independence. An ever-growing number of folk in the wider indy movement (both within and outwith the SNP) are growing tired of them and would rather they’d spent the last two years trying to sort out Indy instead of trying to fight the will of the people of England and their desire for Brexit.
Aye but you canny sort out indy if you don't have the numbers. So thinking of spending the last 2 years "sorting out indy" was pie in the sky, the polls have only just started to change.
Kinda proves the SNPs cautious approach as correct.
They should ramp up after the 2021 elections, assuming all goes well.
piemonster
I read it as condescending tbh.
Sorry about that then.
It is a proposition that puzzles me though.
Kinda proves the SNPs cautious approach as correct.
Agreed.
Yes, lots of Uber nats are struggling with the pace of progress, but Sturgeon is playing a blinder, without even mentioning the I word.
poly
Free MemberI consider this the “inverse West Lothian question” – rather than why should Scottish MPs get a vote on “English issues” its why is the UK parliamentary time being clogged up with English Health and Education issues
Yup. Was always the answer to the West Lothian Question, it's a problem created by english matters being dealt with in an inappropriate place.
But you ask why? Because the english are happy to think of westminster as "their" parliament, of course.
Yes, lots of Uber nats are struggling with the pace of progress, but Sturgeon is playing a blinder, without even mentioning the I word.
TBH I think she is seeing Bozo is playing a blinder for her and she is just letting the clown do the work for her. Going on the fact every time I look at the shitshow that is the government the more I am drawn to independence
Absolutely, I keep telling yoonie colleagues this, bawjaws is the best thing to happen to the independence cause.
It is a proposition that puzzles me though.
Really? It's hardly rocket science..
There are many reasons why folks who don't like the idea of being governed by England didn't vote for independence. And the reason yes lost last time round was because they couldn't seem to understand that.
I think i pretty much align with Ewan McGregor . Boris and brexit are doing a fairly good job of changing me from no to yes .
<p lang="en" dir="ltr">🏴 Actor Ewan McGregor backs Scottish independence: <br><br>"The Scottish people want to stay in the European Union, and the English don't. So I just think we're going in different directions. So I think probably #itstime. pic.twitter.com/zRn6Mw1Zuo</p>— Ross Colquhoun (@rosscolquhoun) September 12, 2020
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I wouldn’t worry. The SNP leadership don’t appear to be in any hurry to push for independence.
Next Holyrood election and what happens after will prove or disprove that. Personally I think Sturgeon has steered a cautious approach partly because thats her nature and partly because thats the hand she has been dealt. However the next Holyrood election needs to be a defacto referendum, a big victory and then a no holds barred run at independence using every tool available.
epicyclo
It is a proposition that puzzles me though.
Probably cause you've got the colonial patter on the brain.
No sure whether ye actually believe it or are just at the wind up.
Hopefully the latter.
seosamh77
Probably cause you’ve got the colonial patter on the brain.No sure whether ye actually believe it or are just at the wind up.
Hopefully the latter.
If you want an analogy:
We've just seen a majority of people in England vote for Brexit because of what they saw as an imposition of rule by a large neighbour, ie the EU.
No really tbh, you'd need to write a book to go into the many reasons people voted for brexit.
Ye canny just simplify it to that to suit your agenda.
I'd suggest it was more of a misguided F U to the British establishment gone wrong, and that element of the vote was the tipping point.
seosamh77
do you doubt Scotland is in a different place politically to England and divergence is increasing? Brexit being one large issue where the differences are huge and obvious
TJ, no not at all. Just don't see any value in the masters and overlords type argument.
Seosamh you're right and you're wrong. 🙂
The issue of independence has to be fundamentally about the right of the population of a country, in this case Scotland to elect their own government.
The history of the British empire is one of colonialism, "empire building" profiting largely by stripping other countries of their wealth through military power or the threat of it. Many Scots took willing part in that and some profited from it. The tobacco barons, and slave traders etc.
The point is that history has shaped our institutions, and to some extent our attitudes and even language. So it will inevitably play a part in any debate.
For example my saying that Scotland is a country will be disputed by some folk
However the next Holyrood election needs to be a defacto referendum, a big victory and then a no holds barred run at independence using every tool available
It's that last bit where it's going to get interesting, we've seen from brexit that there's no lower limit on how nefarious Johnson will be when it comes to preventing it.
By the time we get to a new Indyref Blo Hard may well be gone, as well as his supervisor.
Scotland is in a different place politically to England and divergence is increasing?
Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
Start a London IndyRef thread?
This 🖕+1
seosamh77
TJ, no not at all. Just don’t see any value in the masters and overlords type argument.
Of course you don't.
Unfortunately that is the case, and on current polling over half the population of Scotland believe that to be so.
molgrips
Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
Why not?
Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
You should absolutely start campaigning for that if you believe in it. Or are you employing a 'whataboutery' argument against Scottish independence?
It would appear Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles are each seeking independence from Scotland, should Scotland become independent. Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this. The arguments for this would no doubt be similar, and arguably stronger?
Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this
Yes.
Next.
It would appear Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles are each seeking independence from Scotland, should Scotland become independent.
My sources on the ground say otherwise but hey, if they want to then that would be their choice. They would end up as tiny nations and the WI in particular would struggle economically. They'd also have to set up a lot of the infrastructure of nationhood from scratch but that hasn't prevented other new countries being formed. I reckon they'd find it easier if they could somehow negotiate EU membership (or something very close to it).
Tories now floating (again)withdrawing from (parts) of the European convention on human rights. that puts them in direct conflict with Holyrood as the convention is incorporated into scots law and the Scotland Act.
the gift that keeps on giving
Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this.
Yes, if they want.
epicyclo
Unfortunately that is the case, and on current polling over half the population of Scotland believe that to be so.
There you making leaps again. I'm part of that half of the population. And I don't believe in your victimhood.
molgrips
Free Member
Scotland is in a different place politically to England and divergence is increasing?Same is true of London. Independence for London too?
crack on. 😆 wales too if you like.
For example my saying that Scotland is a country will be disputed by some folk
It isn't really at the minute though, kinda the point of the independence movement 😆
gauss1777
Free MemberIt would appear Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles are each seeking independence from Scotland, should Scotland become independent. Are those who are pro Scottish independence in support of them doing this.
I'm in favour of any sort of self-determination. But there's never been a real desire for any of this- it's an unsinkable rubber duck that people keep throwing out as if it's an anti-independence argument but there isn't even support for a campaign let alone a succesful one.
There you making leaps again. I’m part of that half of the population. And I don’t believe in your victimhood.
Yep, as am I.
I'd potentially vote for independence as i cant stand anything the tories stand for, yet we constantly have them in power. If westminster was run by a government whom shared my values I wouldn't even consider voting for independence. Getting 'ruled' from another country is irrelevant for me although granted there are clearly folks that seem to have a chip on their shoulder about it.. which is ironic given the same people seem desperate to stay in the EU, which in my mind isn't much different (which I'm very much for btw)
A wish for self determination isn't a chip on the shoulder.
It isn't but constantly bleating on about colonialism is.
^x2
It's boring and just plays to the hard done by Scot stereotype. You can have all the forward thinking, bold new future you like but it still gets dragged back to being under the heel of a "colonial" Westmonster government, a foreign power (insert additional bingo options as required) that is somewhat at odds with the desire to be part of a truly supranational bloc.
Yes, there are multiple failings in the UK government that are giving people serious consideration as to the viability of just being shot of them but don't be under any pretences that we are somehow better than any of that. Look at the cult of personality around the likes of Salmond and even Sheridan. Look at the central belt and tell me the wealth of the country won't just be centred around there.
There are lots of things to be overcome on the road there but not least this notion that we are somehow better and immune from the corruption and myopic politics that led us here in the first place.
I don't like the "colonialism" chat but it's not the worst word you could choose for a situation where a country is told they can't have a referendum on their own future by a government that's been totally rejected by that country. Or equally if you're northern ireland and your MPs are only of interest when they can be cheaply bought to win an election but your interests can be thrown on the bonfire for brexit.
squirrelking
Free MemberThere are lots of things to be overcome on the road there but not least this notion that we are somehow better and immune from the corruption and myopic politics that led us here in the first place.
We are not immune. But better? Yes, I think we're better. Not because we're scots and scots are all awesome, but because westminster is a bloody disaster. It's a low bar, it's not exceptionalism, we only have to aim to be adequate and we're winning that race.
we only have to aim to be adequate and we’re winning that race.
And yet we're not even achieving that. We're effectively a one party state in a system that was seemingly designed to prevent that from ever happening. I've lost count of how many opposition leaders there have been in the last term never mind since SNP took power.
@squirrelking just the two in the last term I think Baroness Davidson and Jackson Carlaw.
As for the one party state stuff that doesn't really stand up. We have had periods of SNP minority government, and arrangements with the Scottish Green Party as well as a spell with an SNP majority government.
I think the one party state thing would cease to be a problem the day after independence.
I doubt the SNP would even manage to stick together until the end of the victory party.
Yup - the SNP is too broad a church to survive after independence.
I think we would see a huge realignment in scottish politics with all 3 main parties splitting - left of labour go off with the real socialists, right of labour and left of SNP for a social democratic grouping, right of snp join with half the Tories to become the rural farming hunting and shooting party and the right of tories disappear down a ukip / bnp hole
