[Closed] Sacking rubbish teachers

"No one is forcing teachers to work at academies"??????

How can you say this when ALL schools are being encouraged/forced to become Academies or suffer HUGE financial cut-backs and become the local sink school?

Also are you not aware that Academies have their own pay and conditions separate from the current teachers pay and conditions. Can you not see privatisation when you see it?

Only 17 teachers have been sacked in the last 10 years.

To me, that tells its own story.

And that story is..........?

Simon Semtex - you're not really helping matters, TBH.

In what way?

Story is...

No profession can have that many members with so few who need to be sacked.

The training for, say, GPs is more strict than that for teachers and more are 'struck off' despite there being a similar number of each (according to google).

Sacking doesn't just need to be for gross misconduct, it can be for failing to work to the expected standards. Although remedial training is used, there is less of a link between job safety and competence than in other professions.

My fiance is a Primary School teacher, and I know that there is an acceptance that some teachers aren't that good. The training does little to remedy this, yet they simply don't progress rather than being sacked.

I can't speak for Secondary teachers (and I suppose am not in an position to talk with authority on Primary teachers, just offering my opinion) but there are some who enter the profession to be educators, and are a credit to their schools, whilst others see it as an extension of childminding and shouldn't be left to teach and inspire a love of learning in our kids.

REALLY? Academies have to adhere to "Normal" working regulations? Would a 19 year-old plumber who gets pissed on a Friday night and then posts a photo on Facebook of his drunken antics be fired by his employer first thing on Monday morning? I think not.

Fair point bike monkey

"No profession can have that many members with so few who need to be sacked."

But your figures are wrong. There were actually 228 struck off by the GTC in the past 10 years. (211 for poor conduct and 17 for incompetence.)

For me the interesting bit is "POOR CONDUCT." Just what exactly is that? Posting pissed up pics on Facebook or swearing at kids?

Remember that the GTC is being disbanded and if you combine that fact with the increased powers of head teachers in academies then i wouldn't be suprised if "POOR CONDUCT" is widened to include infringements of the sartorial kind.

Which opens another can of worms; at what point does not controlling some feral little sod become the teacher's inability to maintain discipline?

Quick question are people confusing being struck off with being sacked?
Onereason not many teachers are scaked is that as mentiond earlier most people coldnt cope with being a rubbish teacher long enough to get sacked so resign anyway. Teaching is the worst job in the world if your rubbish.

angalisarvensis edit please, otherwise will all feel sad for the state of education. Your/you're and others..

I don't know an awful lot about this, but I've been told one of the reasons for moving to acadamies is that the standard teaching contract will not apply and it will be normal employment rules. So sacking will be automatically easier?

Also the thing about not many teachers being sacked etc etc isn't this down to the points made by angalisarvensis and others about
i) hard to stay in job if crap
ii) Competency procedures help people to improve rather than being dumped
iii) teachers are "encouraged" to leave rather than facing competency so that they can have a life chance elsewhere?
iv) more importantly the training and selection process weeds out the crap ones..

Scuzz....

My comment about the plumber was to illustrate the point that teachers are increasingly being held accountable for happenings in their personal life whilst they are at work.

EXAMPLE:

On 23rd Dec last year two Primary teachers in Hull were forced to resign for comments they made to each other during a PRIVATE Facebook conversation.

My point is that the general public wants it both ways. They want teachers to be held to the highest possible moral standards of our society, they want teachers PRIVATE lives to be accountable but at the same time say that teachers are overpaid, over-pensioned, over-holidayed, boring old farts who hate kids.

Simon_Semtex - Member

PRIVATE Facebook conversation.

http://www.****/news/article-2078280/Teachers-face-disciplinary-calling-pupils-inbred-Facebook.html
http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Primary-school-teachers-Facebook-row-quit/story-14218528-detail/story.html

On 23rd Dec last year two Primary teachers in Hull were forced to resign for comments they made to each other during a PRIVATE Facebook conversation.

I'm not doubting you, but can you substantiate this so we can look at the facts for ourselves?

edit seen the post above it wasn't PRIVATE in any way..

angalisarvensis edit please, otherwise will all feel sad for the state of education. Your/you're and others..

half o it is the crap keyboard i'm frced to use!! There's cuts dont you kow!

funnily enough all those mistakes above are keyboard generated I didnt do it on purpose, although you'v got me on the your and you're thing. HE WRITES SMASHING ON THE BUTTONS

My point is that the general public wants it both ways

Or maybe the teachers that were happy to teach those children during the day then make nasty remarks in their spare time wanted it both ways?

boring old farts who hate kids.

You made this up for effect. In fact are you Fred?

Simon_Semtex - I wouldn't necessarily expect a 19yr old plumber (not sure why the age - as I think you will be >21 to actually have qualified as a teacher) to be sacked for getting pished and posting on Facebook, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a police officer, a youth worker or even a forensic scientist disciplined for bringing their employer into disrepute on Facebook. Certainly if any of them were discussing personal details of their 'clients/cases' on Facebook I'd expect it.

All teachers have the same legal employment rights as other 'ordinary' employees in the UK. I think the difference with Academies is that the standard teachers' contract (negotiated by Unions on a country wide basis) does not apply. There will be pro's and con's to that (e.g. pay the best teachers more if the employer wishes to; but not benefit from some of the collective union bargaining). Academy staff have the same rights to proper disciplinary process and employment tribunal that Local Authority staff do.

but at the same time say that teachers are overpaid, over-pensioned, over-holidayed, boring old farts who hate kids

If my plumber posted derogatory comments about me or my friends on facebook then I would sack him. If I was an employer and an employee posted derogatory comments about my clients or other employees then I would probably sack him. Seems reasonable to me.

Surely if the teachers in question thought this was unfair they could go to an employment tribunal and sort it out. But they were not even sacked, the resigned. Which goes back to angelisarvensis point and mine about how crap teachers leave, which undermines the statistics posted somewhat..

Poly....

That's entirely my point. Why should ANYTHING we do as individuals in our PRIVATE life be accounted for in our working lives?

Apart from cases were a law is broken, why should a commercial organisation have the right to tell us how to dress, talk or act DURING our own free time?

I don't know an awful lot about this, but I've been told one of the reasons for moving to acadamies is that the standard teaching contract will not apply and it will be normal employment rules. So sacking will be automatically easier?

Not the case, cheaper is the word you are looking for. I fancied a move to a rougher school in my Authority last year, less distance,but more work. Same job, pay scale etc. I didn't get it because they would have had to pay me top of scale. Now I run rugby teams, am an ML and run the DoE in my current school. I also get results in my subject and am dual qualified in another. Job went to an NQT who was £10k cheaper. I didn't get an interview, nor did anybody more than one year out of probation. They stayed until xmas. Lots of kids at the school travel 6 miles to the nearest DoE open unit as they don't have one.

It is common knowledge in the profession that senior teachers are not getting unpromoted jobs because they are nipping and tucking at the expense of experience.Now translate that mindset to an academy. How long until academies are paying off teachers who reach top of pay scale?

Apart from cases were a law is broken, why should a commercial organisation have the right to tell us how to dress, talk or act DURING our own free time?

It's written into most contracts that the employer has the right to terminate the employment if you make the company look bad, whether during or outside work hours - whatever the job.

I work for a bank, and as such they do an excellent job of making themselves look bad, I don't need to resort to BookMyFace or Witter to do it for them 🙂

Without wanting to UPSET Sir SEMTEX...I think you've gone off the point somewhat.

The focus is on incompetent teachers who can not carry out their job effectively. This effectiveness can be measured in a number of ways but the best measure of an incompetent teacher (IME of 15 years in the job) is the number of parental complaints about a member of staff. The real badd'uns and nut-jobs stand out a mile in this regard. The problem is those who are so bad that they don't realise it - thankfully there are none like this in my current workplace, but there were a couple at my last place who had absolutely zero self-awareness of how poor they were - out of control kids (who behaved perfectly well in other lessons) and very slow progression, ie. a lack of learning by students. These are the sorts of teachers that should be hastened out of the profession more quickly. And this is coming from an ex- union rep!

EDIT:

How long until academies are paying off teachers who reach top of pay scale?

*sigh* if only...

How long until academies are paying off teachers who reach top of pay scale?

*sigh* if only...

A good thing why?

Headfirst

Thanks for clarifying what "progression" means. Have been wondering for a while what it was.

It was apparently started by teacher Stuart Clark, who stated he was "fed up of bumping into children in town".

During the conversation, Miss Roberts replied: "by town, do you mean top end of holderness road?

"That's bout as far anyone in east Hull goes.

"No wonder everyone is thick....inbreeding must damage brain development."

Ms Johnson then said: "You're really on one today mrs... !! Xx."

Miss Roberts replied: "Haha, I'm actually in a good mood.

"If anyone reading this is offended, then get a grip."

of the cuff banter ill advised and foolish but there would be no one employed on this forum given what we post

Semtex, no CAPITALS? Is that how we tell you've gone from angry-shouty to condescending?

I've just heard on the radio that it can take up to a year to sack an underperforming teacher, is this correct?

don simon - Member
I've just heard on the radio that it can take up to a [b]lifetime[/b] to sack an underperforming teacher, is this correct?

Most people would get sacked for not doing a good job

Not easy to fire people unless they do some gross misconduct. You have to demonstrate consistent under performance, and that means having a credible benchmark and the means to measure what they are doing in some way.

just like any other job then.

is this really a sackable offence?

[pedant mode]No one was actually sacked. [/pedant mode]

However I am able to inform you Ms Johnson and Miss Roberts have decided to relinquish their posts at Westcott Primary School from December 2011 and will pursue other opportunities.

As I said before if they objected to their treatment then they could have gone through disciplinary and got the union to help them and then the courts could have decided if it was sackable.

Speakng as a teacher I see no issue in principle. The thing is though that those judged as poor teachers are not always so. They just don't jump through the ridiculous hoops that are called teaching by a succession of governments. dunno about the secondary schools but at primary level you are as much an administrator as educator. Chuck in a much too large chunk of police officer and social worker and its not always those who can't teach who "fail". Just those who won't play a very silly game.

Don Simon - it would take the best part of a year to fire anyone in the public sector who was just underperforming (i.e. not some gross misconduct issue - just a bit rubbish). Especially if they are the member of a union.

Buzz Lightyear - credible benchmark probably much easier in teaching than many other jobs. There are thousands of other teachers all with the same curriculum, and other teachers in the same school dealing with the same pupils.

Junkyard - I don't think you can have the full conversation there (or there was something more than this) as Ms Roberts appears only to have said "You're really on one today mrs... !! Xx". Unless of course she is an English teacher in which case the use of the phrase "on one" should immediately have resulted in her contract being terminated.

Semtex - standard employment contract stuff. Welcome to the real world - if you bring the company in to direpute, see you later, there are plenty of other people looking for work who are quite happy not to.

Duckman - it might = cheaper; but what it really means is driven by market forces not by the unions! That could mean the very best get more too.

Don Simon - it would take the best part of a year to fire anyone in the public sector who was just underperforming (i.e. not some gross misconduct issue - just a bit rubbish). Especially if they are the member of a union.

How long until children are asked to rate their teachers as part of some metric to decide which teachers are good, which are bad?

Don Simon - I agree but sadly this is nothing new. It is the history of UK education over the past 30 years in a nutshell.

I and this is tough to say broadly support Gove in this. But i have issue with how we wil recruit better teachers and what incentives there are for me to excell. I get paid the same as shit teachers!

CaptJon - 360 appraisals in education. Now there's a wheeze for some consultant to exploit.

I've worked in a place where someone got sacked for really screwing up. I've also been sacked myself! Funnily enough, for not screwing up, and whilst doing some quite good work.

Said on the radio today that in the UK only 17 teachers had been sacked for incompetency in the last 10 years.

So is it really such a big problem that the process needs to be changed.

Or is the lack of sackings for incompetency over the last 10 years due to it being too difficult to do ?
(rather than a lack of incompetent teachers ?)

So is it really such a big problem that the process needs to be changed.

Nothing in teaching is simple.

My wife is an outstanding teacher in an outstanding school. The school is outstanding despite, not because of the head who (from what I hear) is poor, verging on incompetent. She is disliked by governors, teachers and parents due to her total lack of empathy and chaotic management style. However, the LEA think she is great because of their results and it really is virtually impossible to get rid of a poor head.

Several times a week she stuns me with some tale of idiocy from the school.

Last night she was asked by the head to fill in a risk assessment for driving her own car to and from courses that she might attend!

It is a complicated form supplied by the LEA and needs to be returned with copies of her driving license and insurance!

If my wife were to complete it it would probably take an hour. She already works a circa 60 hour week.

There is a note on the form saying that it should be completed annually.

This is the reality of teaching.

My wife, who is now a music teacher, used to sing in school choir at special events. Parental involvement was stopped by perceived hassles of all the form filling and checks etc. But no one turned a blind eye to parents helping with transporting kids. Nothing ever happened, but which puts children at more risk? And which one does the government (of all parties) obsess over?

Education is too important to be left to the politicians.

don simon - Member
Don Simon - it would take the best part of a year to fire anyone in the public sector who was just underperforming (i.e. not some gross misconduct issue - just a bit rubbish). Especially if they are the member of a union.

I am actually quite dismayed at this. In many areas there is a demand for excellence, yet in the futures of your children there is an acceptance of mediocre or lower. Further to this I am shocked but not surprised at the unions stance of not wanting to do anything about it.
I'm not saying the govt is going about it the right way, just that currently by being too difficult to remove deadwood, surely something good teachers would want to see as a few rotten apples anre giving the good a bad name, your children's education is going to suffer.

In reality anyone in any job who has been there for more than a year is actually quite difficult to sack. Probably as difficult as a teacher. You can make teachers redundant using the same process as industry, and the competency process is just a formalisation of how it should be done in industry. The issue is that the perception in industry is that it is easy to to be fired, well it is if you are happy to roll over and take it, but with union backing anyone in industry can hang around easily as long as a teacher if they know how to play it.

Don simon what do you think the role of a union is if your disappointed by their stance?