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As for Farrell he is certainly not world class at either 10 or 12, world class means you are in the top 2 ( or maybe 3) in your position. That he is not. He is England’s top points scorer as he takes the kicks and is reliable at short and medium range, he is a far poorer kicker than JW from a quality standpoint.
Well those two players who farrell would not dethrone from their 12 position not from the home nations, certainly according to the Lions coaches. He'd walk into France, italy, argentina, SA or aus which just leaves NZ......
I think Ford has been benefitted from circumstance. England has not had great options at 10 for some time. Look at the top few teams in the AP for the last few years...............
It's an accurate somethingion.
I do think Ford put in the best performance by any English fly half in all of 2017 in the first test in Argentina though. He was brilliant.
Burns actually played a cracking test away to NZ under Lancaster but never got another look in.
Cipriani is the greatest that never was. Shunned by succesive coaches he was always excellent the handful of times he got on the field under Lancaster. Jones has stated that Cips is a "number one" so has no place in the squad as a number three. I think that's a mistake. Wasps are a far better side with him at 10 rather than Gopperth. It's a chance missed.
I see TJ is picking his lions team on form 9 months after the event when in fact the lions back row et al appeared to do ok!
Anyway, despite not being totally challenged (which is hardly their fault) well done Scotland, some great rugby played! As for England, despite their recent successes they have a few issues.
Wrecker - I doubt Farrell would walk into today’s Scotland side. Others might have different opinions, but that looks like a beautiful balanced back line. And balance and fit matter - which is why as a Scot who loves how Russell plays, I would never pick him for a scratch team like the Lions (not simple enough rugby, everyone else would need to learn to play with him).
However, on today’s game we should note:
We would not have won like that had the match been at Twickenham today; and,
Three tries up at half time, we didn’t get the bonus point. We should have.
Some learning yet.
Farrell wouldn't get into any other home nations team if everyone was fit. too slow between the ears and simply not good enough. He is not even that good a kicker. Farrell was under 70% last 6N Russell over 90% IIRC. He has nerves of steel and makes very few mistakes - but neither is he able to cut open defences the way the best players do
If you were Irish would you have him instead of Sexton or Ringrose ( does ringrose play 12?) If you were welsh would you have him over Biggar patchellk or preistland? or in the centre? He might get selected for Scotland over peter Horne but its doubtful. He certainly wouldn't over Russell or any of our injured 12s
The attitude comment bares a lot of weight. I heard from a good source (who was there) that robbo put him in a headlock and threw him down some stairs.........Lewsey also banged him out in training. Listening to the rugby pod, the conversation there hasn't changed my mind on that.
That argentina series was a cake walk. An attacking fly halfs dream tour, it couldn't have been more tailored for Ford. But he's flaky and disappears when on the back foot.
The major issues are far deeper, the pack is pedestrian. Genge, sinkler and george are the future of the front row. Itoge and Billy Vunipola have been flogged to death. A second row has no business playing 6 and a 6 no business playing at 7. Curry and Wilson also did extremely well in Argentina, yet no dice in the big games.
Gatland would take farrell in at 12 at wales, we know that. He'd moonwalk into the scots team.
Wrecker - England had to move Farrell fro 10 to 12 as he is so slow of thinking to try to give him more time and space
Bollocks. I've explained why earlier. Also, see european cup 2016/17.
Wrecker - crossed posts. One lesson england have to take from today is you need breakdown specialists. Scotland took the ball off england 9 times at the breakdown I think
You need a specialist inside centre.
the other is you need some brains on the park. If Barclay had been English England would have won comfortably. a smart rugby player
I don't disagree with that TJ. I think that Barclay got away with murder today though but credit to him, I don't think he got penalised once. That must be the first game in a loooooong time that he hasn't. As a semi-former 7 who was no stranger to a penalty, I have plenty admiration for that!
The brains on the park comment is very shrewd, england react slowly. Most often after the coaches have figured it out and tell the player at half time. Hartley must go. The on field leadership is shite.
Curry and Wilson also did extremely well in Argentina, yet no dice in the big games.
Yeah but I thought you said it was a cake walk?
Joking aside, it was a 2nd/3rd string England side against a fired up Pumas team at home to the hated English so not really a cake walk.
I know Cips is a knob but Lewsey, in his autobiography, also stated that Cipriani had the ability to be a truly world class player. He's knuckled down and played well the last couple of years but had no recognition. It's the old English failing of favouring Roundheads over Cavaliers - every time.
Wrecker - seriously if all scots were fit who would you drop to put Farrell in? 10 or 12?. Not Russell Taylor or Dunbar? Russell is a better kicker and can put players into space like no other NH 10 ( you saw it today) Both Dunbar and Taylor are specialist 12s and far better defensivly. Farrell missed 1/2 his takles today and didn't attempt many
He is not the right sort of player for the scotland game - outplayed today by Peter Horne FFS - a journey man if there ever was one and our 4th choice 12
I think cips blotted his copy book with the dowdy RFU. They don't seem the forgiving type.
TJ; You'd take dunbar over farrell?!? Fine with me, you can keep him!
He’d moonwalk into the scots team.
joke answer - moonwalk? The Scots prefer their backs going forwards...
Seriously though, he just doesn’t fit with the way Scotland want to play - and that’s whether he’s good bad or indifferent.
Anyway, it's refreshing to be talking about a Scottish win and an English defeat.
Those two things don't come along very often. Especially in the same game!
Namastebuzz - agreed. You git.
Can I just post this again please?
Wrecjker - every day of the week. a much better 12 than Farrell.
what did ~farrell do today bar an easy run in?
Should we not look beyond one game when assessing a players worth?
How many of the last 10 english calcutta cup victories has farrell contributed to? What about Lions tests? League championships? European championships? How does Dunbar measure up now?
Namastebuzz – agreed. You git.
Ha ha! That's pretty much what my Scottish mates were saying as I kicked them out the door tonight.
Thing is, the 6N needs all the teams to be good and challenging each other if we're ever gonna catch NZ. England have won a large % of their 6N games over the last several years without ever being particularly brilliant - and that hasn't been good for anyone.
Wrecker - its my view over many years Farrell is what they call in cricket a flat track bully. Looks great when things are going well but goes missing when times get tough. I really think him vastly over rated.
Kicking at under 70% last 6N? I thoght he played well against Wales and that finally I was seeing what others see in him but today? Not worth a place in the side. Its not what he does thats the issue. He looks good doing what he does - its what he doesn't do thats the issue. a weak tackler, slow between the ears and no tricks to his game to put others into space.
Just watched the second half (what a joy that was)
Great win for Scotland....they were the only team in it really. Other than the second half against Australia in the Autumn, England have been a bit lacklustre for the past 6 months.....winning unconvincingly. We have to get this breakdown issue sorted if we want to be world beaters.
Are we really comparing Dunbar v Farrell?!?! Jesus ****ing christ! One is a multi test lion, European champion, and world player of the year nominee. The other will be struggling to get back in the Scotland team when fit. One bad game doesn't make a bad player, and in any case, Farrell had okay game.
JJ, Itoje, Cole, Lawes, Care, May, Ford were all useless.
Troubling times...
https://rugbyonslaught.com/police-set-investigate-english-sports-team-bullied-80-minutes/
Seeing as how we are wading into Englands weakness I'll have a go. The team seems set up wrong to me. Its most obvious in the backrow with 3 locks and no 7. The pack is set up to batter the shit out of the oppisition and grind them into the dust keeping it tight, like they did to Wales. The backs meanwhile have the Ford and Farrel combination which passes very well and gets around blitz defences well but when they get wide the backrow cant keep up. The forwards and backs are both good but seem like they should be in different teams
AA - I think that’s a fair observation.
TBH, none of the home nations are perfect, we all have issues. We would love to have a Hooper, but don’t.
I agree with AA - all the Ford / Farrell bashing is misplaced imo. The best flyhallf / centre partnership won't make any difference if you can't cross the gain line and get turned over after 5 phases.
The fact that we've been consistently exposed by teams with decent 7s since the world cup should have given us a clue where we needed to look...
Farrell suits the English route one game, and the necessary simplicity of the Lions.
He wouldn't suit the Russell crazy show Scotland have adopted.
And that bit about backrows too.
To be clear tom B - I am not saying Dunbar is a better player than Farrell - I am saying Farrell would not get into the scotland side if all our centres were fit and never at 10. Its about combinations. playing style and skills.
One problem Scotland will have with the new 6n points system is not picking up bonus points against the weaker teams, yesterday was a glaring example of this.
Yup - we left a bonus point on the field yesterday
It's an interesting point Wrecker..... England only have one BP from three games now though. Wales have a couple, as do France and Ireland. Maybe it'll be telling in the final table?
He’s a good kicker but if you take away the kicking what are you left with? No pace, no step, no threat ball in hand and can’t tackle. Although he does throw a great pass and reads the game well.
His place kicking king is poor these days but he contributes far more than you give him credit for. He's gone away and worked on his game since we was first capped etc and is more involved in the attack.
The frustrating thing about the breakdown is that we can do it; when we beat Australia on their own patch we held our own n that department even without a proper seven. It can be done but balance is key; Robshaw, Billy and Haskell actually worked well together. We've not really looked balanced since that tour.
The likes of Kruis and Wigglesworth on the bench aren't going to change a game either.
I was being sarcastic TJ; even as my brain was telling me that the final whistle had gone I was afraid Engerland would come back and beat us.
Duckman - three tries by half time? I was glad of the win, but disappointed there was no bonus point.
Horne bollixed up a chance for the bonus try. these things happened. We didn't create enough chances to get one
Can I just leave this here? From the English Telegraph 😉
So
Cite Ryan Grant for the face rake? Hughes didn't complain and when a bigger man is pinning you to the floor by the throat flailing around to get him off you seems reasonable.
For me he should be cited for consistency and fairness, but should be cleared by the citing commissioner as it was a flailing hand not a deliberate attempt at a gouge.
It’s an interesting point Wrecker….. England only have one BP from three games now though. Wales have a couple, as do France and Ireland. Maybe it’ll be telling in the final table?
wales’ BPs are losing ones but they have an easy run in. Likely Eng, Wales and Scots will finish with two losses so it could well come down to it. Plenty of banana skins in there though! I could be watching the France wales game at the end cheering the French even more loudly than usual!
Scotland as a team is much more balanced as they were yesterday. Problem is you bring back guys from injury and we slip out of this new fit.
I know I mutter about it a lot but I think AP imports hurt England today. Not enough England 6/7s playing top level those slots have good forgiven players in them.
Dunno about that. Armand, Curryx2, that young wasps lad, Wallace, O connor (EQP). I can't think of a lot of foreign starting 6/7s in the AP besides Louw, van velze and Burger.
England just weren’t at the races, I’m afraid. Of the forwards, I think only Launchbury and Hughes can look back on the game with any sort of satisfaction in their performances. The rest were largely anonymous around the breakdown if they were there at all. For my money it all stemmed from not having enough ball, losing it in vital positions, and then doing comparatively little with it.
Scotland were more up for it, it pains me to say it, but they were good for the win.
tjagain
Member
SoCite Ryan Grant for the face rake? Hughes didn’t complain and when a bigger man is pinning you to the floor by the throat flailing around to get him off you seems reasonable.
For me he should be cited for consistency and fairness, but should be cleared by the citing commissioner as it was a flailing hand not a deliberate attempt at a gouge.
Posted 52 minutes ago
+1. This is a distraction from far greater things. Hughes is a thug (in a sort of Martin Johnson “love him on our side would hate him if he played for anyone else” way). He was pushing it, Grant was pushing his face up to reduce the pressure Hughes was exerting. Owens handled it nicely, I thought.
Dannyh
Hughes was supposed to be the battering ram that broke Scotland. I though he was really poor. 2 decent runs and the rest of the time he was hit and chopped down behind the line by scots tacklers. Even got chopped by Laidlaw. I thought hughes rather innneffective
Hard to begrudge the Scottish team (or fans) their celebration after that win...particularly given it generally only comes around once a decade...