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I would have settled for respectability but will obviously take that! England need a dog back rower almost as much as Inverdale needs kicking in the bollocks.
Well I didn’t see that coming, wonder what EJ will say.
He didn’t look massively impressed in the post-match interview.
Well played Scotland. England were abysmal. How the f so you expect to win an international test if you dont compete at the breakdown with any numbers or intensity until the 70th minute. We also looked completely bereft of ideas out wide. As though there was no plans of how to adapt depending on what defensive system Scotland used.
IMO in the AP everyone decided that breakdown turnovers were no longer possible so they haven't been playing for them. in the pro14 everyone just sharpened up their act to win turnovers. So the scots are used to doing it and went into the match with 2 breakdown specialists - Watson and Barclay. England had none until simmonds came on.
Hughes was inneffective as a carrier as well. Scots defence was great. Disciplined and scrambling well.
England will have felt hard done by at what the scots were allowed to get away with at the breakdown, but that's a sidenote. The best team won today, and bloody well done to them.
I haven't seen england play so badly for a few years. Prob when Jonno was in charge. Harsh lesson should be learnt; there is no divine right to win. If you don't play well you'll get beaten by almost any team.
Ireland should be (rightly) licking their lips at the thought of the easiest grand slam in history. Good luck to them, I hope they do it.
How Barclay was not man of the match I have no idea.
England played badly because of the way Scotand playe. England had no time and space on the ball and were monstered at the breakdown. 15 turnovers. You cannot win games like that and I think I counted 9 breakdown turnovers to Scotland. Scotlands discipline was great as well. On the right side of the penalty count for once
englands misfortune to hit Scotland playing well and to have a ref who allowed the contest at the breakdown. England did not get the bounce of the ball or the rub of the decision - but Scotlands defence was also equal to the challenge. England rarely looked like scoring because there were blue jerseys there to make the tackles.
ickle jonny missed a tackle - his first this championship. 20 tackles made
Wrecker - Ireland have to play the mighty scotland yet 😉
There will be no grand slam this year. Ireland will beat Scotland in Dublin and lose to the plucky grand slam party poopers in Twickenham.
Thoughts from an England fan:
Well played Scotland - a good win in which England never really looked like coming close.
No real complaints about the reffing - particularly given we definitely had all the luck last game...Ar<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">guably a few 50/50 decisions didn't go our way but in rugby the team that's going forward and playing better often gets the rub of the green.</span>
We were destroyed at the breakdown - not only in terms of turnovers but also in decision making, when to commit numbers in both attack and defence. Scotland either didn't contest and had lots of defenders to hit the next tackle or did and invariably turned us over. One of the most worrying aspects is that this was the same in the Welsh game - our back row was consistently out performed and looked unbalanced and slow. We do have some talented 2nd row in England at the moment but pretending their actually decent flankers just because the economics of the EP leads them to play in that position is a conceit that's consistently exposed at international level.
I think our bench was stronger, arguably our best period of attacking play was in the last 15 with only 14 men but the yellow card (Underhill nor Simmonds TJ) negated any advantage this might have brought.
England were just dire. They have beaten far better teams than scotland recently. Just a very bad day at the office.
Really Wrecker? Who thats better have they beaten recently? aus? NZ? look at the rankings. Scotland are 5th and rightly so. You saw the real scotland today and they stopped England from playing and tactically out thought them
Well wales for one, what was the score when you played them?
Come on Tj, at least do a bit of homework, england beat australia the week before scotland did. Why would you refer to the rankings when England are placed considerably higher?
Ireland are going to trounce both of us, but it's likely that england will finish higher in the table than scotland given they are placed higher at present with a similar run in.
I'm off to see what the irish fan kit is like. Did I mention that I'm an irish citizen? ; )
Wales are below Scotland in the world rankings and have been for a while. They are not a better team Scotland will finish this 6N higher than Wales. Aus have a higher ranking but Scotland beat them home and away. do not make the mistake of thinking England played badly. They met the real scotland and scotland made them look bad by outplaying them, out thinking them and being better coached with better tactics
Its a classic - scotland only win because the opposition were rubbish!
I'm not scared of Ireland like I was of England. Sure an away win is hard but I think we have the players to beat them
I refred to the rankings as I think it shows the true strength of teams. England are rightly clear of the rest in second place although I don't know what this will do to the rankings
I’m not scared of Ireland like I was of England.
Are you playing?
Correction - Scotland dropped down the ranks after the welsh defeat but that will be reversed after this weekend
Nothing really between Ireland in 3rd and scotland in 7th before this weekend
Did TJ just say England didn't play badly? He spent to much time behind that sofa obvs.
CFH - it feels like I am- I was shaking with nerves and adrenaline during the game
And that's what our girls team can do.
Our real men play shinty... 🙂
Nah, well done Scotland.
I was surprised at how out of balance the English team looked. I'm sure they'll fix that in the next week or so.
do not make the mistake of thinking England played badly.
They did play badly. Very, very, very badly. It was embarrassing. The scots did play well though, and I hope they enjoy their celebrations tonight. First time in 10 years we have seen the real scotland, nice of them to make an appearance at last!
Wales are below Scotland in the world rankings and have been for a while. They are not a better team
34-7
Great day of rugby, sadly I'm in a pub in Ireland in a region that only plays Gealic Games.
I wonder if Curry & Underhill has been fit all tournament we would still be playing Lawes/Itoje at 6
England were shit TJ, but your boys were very good, particularly at the breakdown. At key moments Barclay and Watson got in on the ball to win penalties to relieve the pressure. They actually engaged their brains.
The silly technical penalties were infuriating (e.g. Lawes kicking the ball of the SH's hands were idiotic).
Once again our big pack did sweet FA; they didn't win the scrum contest, or cause damage with the maul etc. Some big lumps but they don't dominate the opposition. Scotland's front row crisis yet again proved to be a fairy tale.
The question now is will a Eddie make changes? The trouble is thta we don't really have a real seven in the AP (other than the imports). The backrow balance does need to be looked at.
Kryton - they looked bad because Scotland made them look bad. England didn't lose that game - Scotland won it with better tactics and better selection
Some big lumps but they don’t dominate the opposition.
Yeah, but they get loads of likes for their gym selfies.
#gunz #repz #workout #muscles #lookatme #thehask #blahblahblah
Well, well. Hats off to the Scots. Deserving victors.
We had a lively household. Several friends round and a 50:50 split between the nations. A few beers and a meal after. All highly enjoyable with a good bit of banter.
Let's hope Eddie Jones learns some lessons.
DON'T go into a game against the most combative/competitive flankers in the NH with a 6 at 7, a 5 at 6 and a half baked No8 who hasn't played in months or you'll GET MULLERED AT THE BREAKDOWN!
(He seems not to have learned the half baked No8 rule from Dublin last year)
Owen Farrell CAN'T TACKLE. I may have mentioned this before. Several times. Over several years. Today was a fine example of the fact that he is a DEFENSIVE LIABILITY. I'm fed up with all this Farrell is a world class player nonsense. He's not. Tackling is a basic requisite for every player on the pitch. You can't be world class if you lack the basics. (See 3rd test Lions v NZ for more evidence)
Mike Brown is sh**. I may have mentioned this before too. Maybe he'll never play for England again. If so, the Scots have done us a favour.
Johnny May is not an international winger. If you're already standing in touch as the ball is passed to you, chances are you'll be in touch when you receive it. I learned that in primary 5 and never did it again.
Don't waste your time scrummaging against Georgia. We're already good at the scrum. Try working out how to compete at the breakdown.
Try picking a good third scrum half. Having a solid journeyman on the bench is eff all use when you're needing two tries in the last ten minutes. Why hasn't Dan Robson or someone ever been included in the training squads?
At least we now know why Brown virtually never passes...
Yeah, but they get loads of likes for their gym selfies.
#gunz #repz #workout #muscles #lookatme #thehask #blahblahblah
Well Hask didn't play and there were no gym monkeys in the england team so that post was a waste of time wasn't it?
Owen Farrell CAN’T TACKLE
Don't be so stupid. George Ford CAN'T TACKLE. That's why we have to double up in his channel, because of his weakness. And for all of the talk of his attacking prowess, we showed shit all in attack apart from a the one single decent line ran ny the entire team which resulted in a try. Fords days are numbered. Over rated, hyped, average player. And how the hell is wigglesworth a journeyman? At 34, he's played for two clubs in his entire professional career. Stick to something you know about.
At least we now know why Brown virtually never passes…
Well he's passed more this season than I've ever seen him pass before. At least twice by my reckoning.
Over rated, hyped, average player.
Sorry, are you talking about Farrell or Ford there?
I wasn't talking about Ford. I was talking about the fact that Farrell can't tackle. Because he can't.
Wigglesworth is a solid player. Good service, great box kicker, calm head etc. He's not someone who can ignite an international team coming off the bench in the latter stages of 6N game.
Neither can Ford, yet he escapes criticism?
Yet the top lions points scorer, european and world player of the year nominee, england second ever highest points scorer, english and european champion is somehow not a world class player. That's utter bollocks.
I do agree with your points about wigglesworth, but he can't be described as a journeyman.
My thoughts now, with reflection.
Watching the anthems, Scotland looked focused. None of the ridiculous old “passion tears” and hatred rage. They were ready for today and believed.
They had a plan for the breakdown. It wasn’t the first man in getting the turnovers - he tied up our clearout men, allowing the second man to get on the ball. Another red might well have pinged then a lot more, but the best back rows always read the ref and push the limits.
The backs scythed us open and we fell of far too many tackles. Your defence was also magnificent.
Even with all that, we still had chances to get back in the game. Silly penalties cost us (Lawes 😡) the one given against Farrell clearing out was wrong IMO - as he committed to clear out the ruck the Scot took a step back, making it look like Farrell played him off the ball.
The best team on the day won. This game showed us what we already knew. There’s not a lot between any of the home nations. Arguably they are 2-5 in the world. Any order dependant on form and luck.
That’s utter bollocks
If you can't tackle, you can't be a world class player. It's fairly simple.
He's a good kicker but if you take away the kicking what are you left with? No pace, no step, no threat ball in hand and can't tackle. Although he does throw a great pass and reads the game well.
He's also good at running round niggling people and mouthing off at them. Plus starting fights in the tunnel BEFORE the match. (He's world class at that)
You obviously missed the bit where Farrell scythed through the Scots defence to score a try today???
I do however think the decision not to have had a 3rd SH around the squad is strange. Robson would be great IMHO.
You obviously missed the bit where Farrell scythed through
Ha Ha! No I saw that. He finished off a move rather than "scythe" through though.
he can’t be described as a journeyman.
I didn't mean to be derogatory but just used the word in its normal sense of "good but not outstanding". He's a good international quality player but not an outstanding one. Jones should have had a promising 3rd SH in the squad for the time when Youngs/Care got injured.
Farrell ran the only decent line of an england player on the field and got a try from it. Had that been ford, you'd be right up inside him. Farrell IS world class, pretty much every player, pundit and coach knows it and says as much. Ford isn't, he's not even Lions class and is hanging on to international class by the skin of his teeth.
I don't think Wiggo is international class, I'm not sure he ever was TBH and he's 34 now. I'd far sooner see Simpson, Robson or a good few others in there.
If we're pointing fingers at english players who didn't perform today, you could include everyone from 1 - 15 plus a couple of the replacements. I'd say that Lawes, Hartley, Make, Itoge, Ford, JJ, Brown and Watson emerged with little/no credit at all.
If we’re pointing fingers at english players who didn’t perform today, you could include everyone from 1 – 15 plus a couple of the replacements
Indeed. I'm not disagreeing there.
In England we seem to confuse someone who can kick well with someone who can play rugby well. Like Carlos Spencer or Dan Carter or Phil Bennett or Barry John.
I'm no great Ford fan either but Jones seems to consider him a better 10 than Farrell.
The Farrell penalty was a pen - he held onto Watson and would not let his leg go more than 2 m beyond the ruck He didn't have to do that - he could have bumped him and let go
Farrell is vastly overrated - missed 4 tackles today and made 5. Gave away cruicila penalties adn cost England a try with a stupid attempt at a smother tackle when going low would have taken Jones down. He also shovels on shit all day. Someone of real quality as a playmaker would have thought " plan A is not working lets try plan B" Farrell can't do this
Peter Horne who no on would say was world class made more tackles and missed less and made almost as many yards. Farrell looks good when given an armchair ride. today he didn't get it so looked as poor as he is
Dants - beating a second row forward when you have half an acre of space is something any competent back should be able to do
Farrell did not put anyone outside him in space all game
Just watched the game again. We still won. I wasn't dreaming
One thing I noticed fro the second viewing is even at the end with Engl;and attacking hard everything was just pass to the guy outside allowing the defence to drift. Not one run around, dummy, trick of any kind. Its all by the numbers
I think Ford has been benefitted from circumstance. England has not had great options at 10 for some time. Look at the top few teams in the AP for the last few years; Exeter - Steenson (Irish), Saracens - Farrell (conveniently good at 12), Wasps - Cipriani (attitude issues and never fully recovered from injury), Northampton - Myler (not quite good enough), Quins - Evans (kiwi). Then guys like Burns are not as good as ford. The next big hope is obviously Marcus Smith but he's too young to know how he's going to develop or if he'll have injury issues etc.
It's not that Ford is/was better than farrell at 10, it's that he marginally better than the others. For all of the talk at englands depth, we have not been blessed with options at 10/12 for a long, long time.
Someone of real quality as a playmaker would have thought ” plan A is not working lets try plan B” Farrell can’t do this
Remember he was playing at 12, not 10. the major decision making comes before he gets the ball. At that point it's often too late especially facing a blitz defence.
Many congratulations to Scotland, maybe their best ever win against England. We know on their day they can win a tight game against England but today they blew England away in the first half.
The whole team and the coaching staff need to have a long hard look at themselves. We where poorly prepared and simply not ready for the kick off.
As for Farrell he is certainly not world class at either 10 or 12, world class means you are in the top 2 ( or maybe 3) in your position. That he is not. He is England’s top points scorer as he takes the kicks and is reliable at short and medium range, he is a far poorer kicker than JW from a quality standpoint. Anyway Farrell didn’t lose us the game and in fact may have been one of our better players imo.